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Jbz` wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

In 1 turn punisher pask will do more to a riptide than the exterminator will in the entire game.

Which would be relevant if the OP had asked about killing Riptides.

Okay... Exterminator will average 1 HP a turn, cut in half from shield, so never come close to killing a knight. While punisher (which can still roll forward with a blob in front of it, since it's only ever moving 6" anyways) will deal 4 a turn, cut in half to 2. That means 4 times the damage, and Pask will be safe for at least 2-3 turns if you have a blob in the open guarding him, aka actually has a chance of killing a knight.

There's no way a punisher deals 4 HPs a turn to AV 13.

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way a punisher deals 4 HPs a turn to AV 13.

15.55 hits. Gives 2.59 rends, with a reroll for another 2.16, total 4.75 rends. Has an 11 right now, so need a 3+ to glance. 4.75 times 2/3 is 3.16, reroll the fails because he rerolls all penetration rolls, another 1.06.

Grand total of 4. Again, punisher outclasses exterminator by miles.

Since your opponent is using FW (Chaos knight) it is fair that you can do as well.

You might be interested into the LR Annihilator (twin-linked lascanon for the turret), slap an additional lascanon instead of the bolter and shoot away.
Also the FW vanquisher can take a co-axial heavy stubber to make the turret twin-linked, improving drastically his efficiency.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way a punisher deals 4 HPs a turn to AV 13.

15.55 hits. Gives 2.59 rends, with a reroll for another 2.16, total 4.75 rends. Has an 11 right now, so need a 3+ to glance. 4.75 times 2/3 is 3.16, reroll the fails because he rerolls all penetration rolls, another 1.06.

Grand total of 4. Again, punisher outclasses exterminator by miles.

Did you take in account that the any 6's from the first batch that fail to glance/pen with the D3 have to start again from the beginning?
And that the ones that don't roll a 6 the first time only get to re-roll the initial D6 not the D3?


Anyway, back to the Russes Vs Knights.
Another thing to consider is it's a lot easier to maneuver to shoot at different facings with the longer range variants.
Have some on either flank, with other anti- tank stuff towards the middle and (In theory) they won't get to use the ion shield against all of your shots.

Jbz` wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way a punisher deals 4 HPs a turn to AV 13.

15.55 hits. Gives 2.59 rends, with a reroll for another 2.16, total 4.75 rends. Has an 11 right now, so need a 3+ to glance. 4.75 times 2/3 is 3.16, reroll the fails because he rerolls all penetration rolls, another 1.06.

Grand total of 4. Again, punisher outclasses exterminator by miles.

Did you take in account that the any 6's from the first batch that fail to glance/pen with the D3 have to start again from the beginning?
And that the ones that don't roll a 6 the first time only get to re-roll the initial D6 not the D3?

Ah, that is my mistake, so only 3 and change glances/pens (1.5 past invuln). Still much better than the 1/2 a turn from the exterminator.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way a punisher deals 4 HPs a turn to AV 13.

15.55 hits. Gives 2.59 rends, with a reroll for another 2.16, total 4.75 rends. Has an 11 right now, so need a 3+ to glance. 4.75 times 2/3 is 3.16, reroll the fails because he rerolls all penetration rolls, another 1.06.

Grand total of 4. Again, punisher outclasses exterminator by miles.

Where are all the rerolls coming from?

Martel732 wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way a punisher deals 4 HPs a turn to AV 13.

15.55 hits. Gives 2.59 rends, with a reroll for another 2.16, total 4.75 rends. Has an 11 right now, so need a 3+ to glance. 4.75 times 2/3 is 3.16, reroll the fails because he rerolls all penetration rolls, another 1.06.

Grand total of 4. Again, punisher outclasses exterminator by miles.

Where are all the rerolls coming from?

Pask's Crack Shot lets him reroll armor penetration

Oh I see. So only one tank gets Pask, right?

Martel732 wrote:
Oh I see. So only one tank gets Pask, right?

Yes. Pask can easily get a IK down with his BS4 Rending punisher gatling gun, multi-meltas, and lascannon. But needing to get into 24" means he is in threat range of the IKs

Well that's why you also have that vanquisher w/lascannon multimeltas and some infantry melta guns to box it in.

IKs can only reliably assault from 18ish"

Ok, i'm feeling tactical, so here is a brief info on the matter.

The best possible way would be to field a formation (or a couple of them) of leman russ tanks all with vanquisher cannons, lazcannons and multimelta sponsons. Go msu - no squadronning. Knight's main damage would come from mellee, so you can minimise damage this way. Spread out so that you would be able to hit multiple sides of knights. Focus fire till you bring one down - unless it has way better positioning than you. Use the preferred enemy bauble and bs4 to get more hits in. Don't bunch up too hard if he has many blast weapons, also, try to spread out when he closes in - cause if you destroy a knight, catastrophic explosion could wreck your tanks. As for Pask - he's a decent option but very vulnerable and quite expensive. Nice in a cad though. And you'll probably need cad for fortifications. If you decide to take pask, take a look at a punisher. With 20 shots and rending, it's gona get a couple rends in. And would help in case he brings some infantry support and not just knights.

It's a good idea to keep a 20"-ish bauble and some terrain and infantry (we'll cover that later) between your tanks and the nearest knights - it won't be possible to do for long but try to get 2 turns of shooting before mellee starts. Also remember - he can't consolidate after destroying a vehicle - use it to your advantage. Get in different facings to minimise shield usefulness.

He can try to advance in a couple different ways - all close togeteher to overwhelm one of your flanks or center - in this case they're harder to destroy cause of better cover but if you manage to destroy one of them, you could get lucky and catastrophic explosion could be dangerous for the rest of the knights. Also, try to advance your flanks a bit so that he'd be somewhat surrounded.
They can spread out across the front - in this case it all depends on terrain - try to maximise fire on the central one cause all your multimeltas will be able to hit side more often and you will be able to advance central tanks so that they would wrap the other knights. Though, you leave your rear open, so once again, try to mitigate with cover.
Use what little infantry you have to bauble wrap your tanks. Try to minimise incoming damage by spreading out vs blasts. If numbers allow, form circles - this way he won't be able to form breaches to walk through your infantry to charge more distant targets like tanks.

You can use fortifications with tank traps and ammo barels. And you should be able to be on par or in some cases even better in shooting department.

It's going to be war of positioning and dice. 50/50.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's no way a punisher deals 4 HPs a turn to AV 13.

15.55 hits. Gives 2.59 rends, with a reroll for another 2.16, total 4.75 rends. Has an 11 right now, so need a 3+ to glance. 4.75 times 2/3 is 3.16, reroll the fails because he rerolls all penetration rolls, another 1.06.

Grand total of 4. Again, punisher outclasses exterminator by miles.

The Pask Punisher doesn't get to re-roll hits.... only penetrations results. You'd only re-roll the hit results that would be 1's. Thus giving you an extra 0.4 rends, meaning a total of 3.02 rends.

Thank you one and all for your advice and tactics its been an eye opener and am very grateful. So I've got me some 4forgeworld Vanquisher turrets with heavy stubbers/storm-bolters for twin linked goodness. And gone with a demolisher to go with Pask and his punisher. And two battle cannons as i want to see if the randomly move of pie plates can hit side or rear armour with out the ion shield. Ive put on some pics of the first battle cheers.