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The Space Wolves took heavy losses, including the death of a Wolf Lord. Though it doesn't give exact numbers, but it was implied that not only did they loose a large number of the Dreadnoughts, but each company was decimated.

As for Thousand Sons losses, there's some fluff saying that Magnus easily resurrects fallen TS between fights, so I doubt they really suffered. There's also the fact that those villages that did survive the daemonic assault, were still culled by the Grey Knights later on. Plus the planet itself took a serious hit because of Midguardia being destroyed. So in all, Fenris is hurting. Let's not forget about the little bit at the end after the Wolves depart for Cadia, where Magnus mutters something about all going according to plan.

I HIGHLY doubt Grey Knights would be permitted on Fenris. All their fluff says Fenris would be the tomb of any marine-imperial or Chaos- who stepped on its soil without permission.

The comparison with sauron is flawed. I get it and you're not wrong but Sauron has to deal with one planet. That's peanuts to Abaddon, he has WAY more on his plate to deal with than that.
As for being a threat even in death, well, Abaddon is absurdly hard to kill. God knows how often he has "died" already, only to get right back up. Even celestine couldn't kill him with a clean shot.
Not sure what is more impressive. Being a threat from the grave or never dying in the first place with several space faring civilisations AND entities wanting him dead.

And let's not forget that Abaddon is a high profile champion of Tzeentch. I don't think he ever really looses.
The previous crusades were meant to prepare for the crimson path and as as far we know they did just that.
They may not have gone how he ideally envisioned them, but they did not fail their main objectives.

Plus, with traitor's hate it became abundantly clear that he uses the crusades to further increase his power. He sent the crimson slaughter on a suicide mission.
They were almost wiped out, but even had they been completely wiped out, it would have been a win for him by virtue of further fuelling the spell to crack the prison and getting rid of a weakling or potential threat.
Had they survived stronger, the CS would have proven themselves as a worthy tool in his pocket while also having decimated the enemy (otherwise they wouldn't have survived) and by doing so perhaps his plan would have succeeded the way he wanted it to.
So, the CS did exactly what they were meant to do. And even though kranon didn't die and is rebuilding, he was severely weakened. Even with everything else failing it would still have been a win for abaddon.
One chapter worth of upstart renegades isn't a big loss for Abaddon.

Either way, his standing among the gods improved and the spirit cage thing is going to break, so it was a success despite his forces being beaten back.
Ideally he would have conquered that sector completely and have the cage open by now, but it was still a success all said and done.
And if I'm not mistaken, he also used this distraction to get hold of yet another artefact or something along those lines as well.

Abaddon is an master manipulator and engineers fate in such ways as to serve his plans one way or another. I mean, he literally scries for possible futures and pulls strings accordingly to ensure the best possible success rate.
In that way, even when he does lose, he still becomes stronger in some way or another.
He never goes out to achieve one thing in particular, there's always fallbacks and other gains.

But as people have pointed out, he has to go up against a giant, with limited resources AND his patrons gods want him to fail in some way or another. They are in no rush for this crimson path to come to fruition.
That doesn't mean that stuff couldn't be written better mind you. I agree with OP in that sense. That's like what? The third time TSons have failed to take fenris? And it almost feels like Magnus get's his ass handed to him like every other fight.
And personally too, not just in the sense of battles despite being possibly one of the most powerful creatures out there.
Chaos as a whole is like children pranking a house on halloween then running away scared when the door opens.
You have to go out of your way to see the positives. They're there, but yea.

Its frankly amazing any of the primarchs would permit their legions to follow him.

 Frazzled wrote:
Its frankly amazing any of the primarchs would permit their legions to follow him.

I don't think they really care. Angron invaded at the head of 50, 000 berserkers, once. That's 50 space marine chapters to those counting, and he was stopped by 3 chapters. Yes, he lost when he outnumbered the marines more than 16 to one.

Fulgrim disappeared(Although he might not be Fulgrim).

Alpharius, or possibly Omegon, or possibly both, haven't been heard from. Or are dead. Or Cypher. Or both.

Horus is dead.

Lorgar has been sitting on a single planet for 10, 000 years just chilling.

Magnus might care, or might not, but his losses are just as bad as Abaddon.

Actually, now that I think about it, Alpharius and/or Omegon are probably the best Primarchs still around. Their whole schtick is that nobody knows what they're up to and there aren't a lot of losses on their plate, barring Dawn of War I - And they were awesome in that. Firaeaveus Carron was amazing.

Didn't the reign of fire end because Angron just got bored and left? Tree chapters were needed for the cleanup.

I know the comparison with Sauron isn't perfect but the Abaddon Roknar describes is the one GW insists exists but never properly shows up (except in the first 3 HH books where we clearly see he's a badass commander).

I mean badly written by these two tropes being in full effect
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility

 Frazzled wrote:
I HIGHLY doubt Grey Knights would be permitted on Fenris. All their fluff says Fenris would be the tomb of any marine-imperial or Chaos- who stepped on its soil without permission.

Logan was reluctant to let them on the planet, but apparently if a normal person fights a daemon and survives they carry the seed of a daemon inside them. So Logan allowed the Grey Knights to kill the survivors to prevent another incursion.

The big problem Games Workshop has is that it's terrified of lasting victories for the villains that run the risk of showing up the Space Marines. At best, Xenos/Chaos receive Pyrrhic victories after smashing through a bunch of Imperial Guard/PDF/Sisters of Battle. At worst, they're set up so they can smash through a bunch of Imperial Guard/PDF/Sisters of Battle so they can get their arses handed to them by Space Marines.

Neither Chaos nor Xenos feel like credible threats because there's just so much damn Bolter porn. The rule of the setting has largely been that there is very little that cannot be beaten by the application of men in power armour (so long as they have Aquilias). In universe, this 'could' be balanced around the idea that whilst the Space Marines are brilliant at saving the day, there's just too damn few of them to act as the cavalry EVERYWHERE that needs it... however, it feels like the only worlds of any importance within the Imperium are Terra, Cadia (rip) and founding chapter homeworlds. So whenever we're told "oh no Nurgle's Rot/cultists/Tyranids/Orks destroyed [planet]!" it means nothing, because they're not Terra/Cadia/Macragge/Baal, etc. Hell, even with Fenris they couldn't give Magnus a complete victory, they had to wuss out with "y-yeah, it's corrupted real bad... b-but it's still there! They could probably recover!" just because GW were too spineless to take out a first founding Space Marine homeworld.

Meanwhile, Cadia gets blown up/sucked into the Warp/whatever finally but the actual way it's achieved only serves to make Abbadon look like a total moron. It's only two books later before the Imperium's trump card shows up and that's in the PROLOGUE.

About the only real threat that most people take seriously in the lore now is the Tyranids and their encroaching main force, but that's only because the Tyranids barely appear in the lore as is. With the way the plot is going though, no doubt they'll turn up in a book and quickly be kicked in the bollocks by a brand new loyalist Primarch appearing whilst somebody in the background goes "wooOOOooo, they're such a big danger! WoooOOOoooo, good thing Corax/Not-Sangy/Dorn/Vulkan/Jal/Not-Ferrus is here to help stop them! WoooOOOOooo!"

Earth127 wrote:


Also Tolkien makes Sauron a crediblke threat by downplaying him. From the start we knonw he is not that much stronger then the heroes. He however is getting stronger whereas his opponents are becoming weaker. The fights are more equal from thje start so the bad guys don't look like starscream (okay Saruman does) when they lose.

....... what? ummm noooo Suaron is INCREDIABLY powerful, he's a corrupted Maia. basicly a demi-god. yes Gandolf is a Maia but there is never any doubt Sauron is the stronger. the over all story of LOTR is rather then the most unassuming of being, whom are "neither counted among the powerful, not the very wise" can fill a critical role. a compartison to LOTR would be if Abbaddon was a demon primarch, and while gulliman held his attention in a massive battle, a pair of guardsmen performed a covert mission that handed victory to the IoM

I know this isn't a great example but I'd like to put it forward because it makes sense from a fluff perspective.

------------------------------------------------------

I recently GM'd a Black Crusade mixed with Rogue Trader, where the players took a more macro perspective and ran a warband taking on an Imperial colony on the fringes of the Koronus Expanse. In the end, they won against the Imperial colony - outnumbered by about 4-1 and against an entrenched enemy.

How?;

1. Total disregard for collateral damage, it mattered not to them that the colony was ruined and unable to sustain itself afterwards. (In contrast, the Imperium wants to expand and keep land intact. It's why they outlawed Nukes because it renders valuable ground uninhabitable).

2. Daemonic entities. No need for logistics, transport, ammunition or maintenance. There are also many means available to release Daemons, which ruin Imperial Morale and defensive strategy. Used in combination with a combined arms offensive, they are downright dirty. (Seriously imagine yourself trying to organise an effective defense when you hear that your walls and fortifications have been simply ignored and horned daemons etc. are running around behind your lines cutting off your supply lines or destroying what you're protecting --- all whilst you're under attack from the front).

3. Enemy ignorance. The PDF/ Guard are trained to deal with Orks and common Xeno threats but suppressed knowledge of the existence of the great enemy hamstrings Imperial forces. (Whereas Chaos forces know and understand Imperial organisation and strategy well, their tactics are even designed to counter them.).

4. 'Divine' intervention. When Imperial forces pray to their God Emperor they get nothing (more often than not, once in a blue moon the LOTD appear), whereas when favoured chosen of chaos gods, either with sacrifice or deeds, pray for support... they get literal daemons or boons (more often than not, in contrast with the Imperials getting nothing). Try and stay loyal to your God Emperor then.

------------------------------------------------------

Whilst this all takes place in an RPG, I do believe it fits perfectly within 40k fluff. I just don't see the Imperium stacking up against Chaos on a normal world. Their only real strength is numbers.... and those numbers most often break or convert when subjected to the above.

 Arbitrator wrote:
The big problem Games Workshop has is that it's terrified of lasting victories for the villains that run the risk of showing up the Space Marines. At best, Xenos/Chaos receive Pyrrhic victories after smashing through a bunch of Imperial Guard/PDF/Sisters of Battle. At worst, they're set up so they can smash through a bunch of Imperial Guard/PDF/Sisters of Battle so they can get their arses handed to them by Space Marines.

Remember the wailing and gnashing of teeth from Imperial players after the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign over a decade ago when the Forces of Disorder actually won? Conspiracy theories sprouted about how the non-Imperials "cheated" or were helped by GW, and then there were some players that simply outright refused to accept the results or tried to argue how the loss was really a win, or at worst a stalemate (despite the black and white in print results in WD by GW declaring the victory for Disorder). And yet there was none of this protesting over every single other worldwide campaign where the Imperium was the declared winner.

The problem right now is all the background fluff and novels have followed the template of initial Chaos/Xenos victories followed by the heroic Space Marines saving the day in the end. Do the opposite, and you will have accusations of the Imperium being the designated punching bag (though other factions like the Eldar have had to endure that with all the Avatars dying). Follow the template, and we have the issue of the non-Imperial factions being not seen as a real threat, and the expectation that the Imperium is always supposed to win. All the wailing over the Eye of Terror campaign I think stemmed from this inbuilt expectation of inevitable Imperial victory, and then getting a rude awakening.

The solution? I think GW needs to be more even handed in its focus on all the factions so that all factions can have significant victories, not just a one line mention of newly invented random planet being taken. The problem is increasingly GW seems to be vague and impressionistic in their descriptions of battles or even entire campaigns. GW now avoids giving numbers, dates, or other hard data. More and more now it just seems their battles devolve into skirmishes describing unit type A taking out enemy unit B and then enemy unit C taking out unit A, until the special characters move along the plot. The universe as a whole just feels smaller as now it seems only the big special characters matter at all.

I don't mind the numlbers being gone, they never made sense anyway.

Strangely the more I think about it, the more recent publications are better then some of the older stuff but nowhere the oldest stufff.

Fall of cadia explains why abadonn fights a ground war. He wants the planet and mostly the pylons keeping the cadian gate stable intact. SO he prevents escalation when possible because he doesn't want to smash it. He ends up smashing the planet only after the pylons are overloaded so it doesn't matter objectively in the long run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps: While I'd love to continue the Sauron discussion I think we've derailed the thread enough as is.

Earth127 wrote:
I don't mind the numlbers being gone, they never made sense anyway.

Strangely the more I think about it, the more recent publications are better then some of the older stuff but nowhere the oldest stufff.

Fall of cadia explains why abadonn fights a ground war. He wants the planet and mostly the pylons keeping the cadian gate stable intact. SO he prevents escalation when possible because he doesn't want to smash it. He ends up smashing the planet only after the pylons are overloaded so it doesn't matter objectively in the long run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps: While I'd love to continue the Sauron discussion I think we've derailed the thread enough as is.

the moving away from giving numbers is a good thing, and over all I thought the fall of Cadia was excellent. (I throughly enjoyed GS3 too, they really gave a feeling that they where writing about people) and yeah I felt Cadia was laid out in a logical fashion. which is why I disagree that chaos ended up "looking bad" chaos won a hard fought victory, it wasn't just a gimmie. and too rarely does that happen in 40k (granted this is because 90% of battles are covered in 2 sentences that amount to "faction X fought faction Y. Faction X won it with the genius of *COOL CHARACTER FOR FACTION X HERE!* utlizing the awesome power of the *COOL CODEX OPTION HERE!*")

I think thats part of the problem with 40k, a lotta people wanna see complete and utter crushing victory for non Imperial factions, but generally speaking those are, and need to be, rare given the nature of the setting. it's a common problem of the "heros defending the status quo" motiff of many long standing settings.

PS. re Sauron yeah no sense getting bogged down in a discussion of tolken lore, as enjoyable as it can be to debate it

Actually, if you step away from Failbaddon, Chaos does just fine in many 40K novels and canon. The Sabbat Worlds takeover and eventual crusade is an excellent example. Chaos is tough, competent, and often victorious. Storm of Iron is another excellent example.

By numbers and actual details, I mean something like the original FW Taros campaign. We get details of the participating forces, maps showing their movements, supporting naval assets, etc... At least an attempt was made to make it like reading about a RL historical campaign. The last two Gathering Storm books have come off as a pub crawl. The main special characters lurch from one place to another, where they just happen to appear just as a battle is about to begin or already in progress.

 Frazzled wrote:
I HIGHLY doubt Grey Knights would be permitted on Fenris. All their fluff says Fenris would be the tomb of any marine-imperial or Chaos- who stepped on its soil without permission.

I don't think it's permission that would bring the Greyknights to Fenris - they would likely go to destroy it along with forces of the inquisition - for it's obvious daemonic influences.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I HIGHLY doubt Grey Knights would be permitted on Fenris. All their fluff says Fenris would be the tomb of any marine-imperial or Chaos- who stepped on its soil without permission.

I don't think it's permission that would bring the Greyknights to Fenris - they would likely go to destroy it along with forces of the inquisition - for it's obvious daemonic influences.

And absent some mary suiism, would run into the teeth of the wolves there, thus starting a new civil war. Attacking the home world of a founding chapter and one of the most revered would be a blow that could split apart the Imperium. Every chapter would think they could be next, and would shock the average Joe citizen.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
So far I wouldn't discard Abbadon yet. It has been stated that all 12 crusades were preparation for the 13th. Now the 13th is there, yet his first trick, the blackstone fortress Abby did the 12th crusade for, doesn't work. For me that was the weakest part about gathering storm. However, he still got Cadia destroyed, and Biel-tan, and Commorragh and he united what seemed to be un-unitable. I hope GW allows him to get some not-pyrric victory for once.
Actually in that he's similar to Ghazgkull. Despite everything Armageddon hasn't fallen yet, which is a shame as it sets the Orks in the same weak light as Chaos.

Well in both those instances I can actually understand, because in the case of Cadia, the Imperium knew it would happen sooner or later and they prepared for every conceivable contingency. They had much, much more time, resources, and thought put into it than Abbadon ever could, so it only makes sense that Cadia would turn out the way it did. Armageddon was similar in that the entire Imperium had its eye on it by the end, and although I never read what exactly happened there, I like the concept that the Imperium can actually defeat any foe if they all work together on it.

That was not the case with Fenris. No one expected it, Magnus had every possible advantage and still lost. Against Logan Grimnar. Logan Grimar > Magnus the Red. Let that sink in.

However according to fluff the Fang was the 2nd most heavily defended location after Terra (not sure why other than the wolves are ornery).

All things being equal a legion's worth of ships should outclass a chapter's. It all comes down to how strong the Fang's antiship defenses are.

 Frazzled wrote:
However according to fluff the Fang was the 2nd most heavily defended location after Terra (not sure why other than the wolves are ornery).

All things being equal a legion's worth of ships should outclass a chapter's. It all comes down to how strong the Fang's antiship defenses are.

The book made it clear that Magnus' forces avoided the fang and were targeting the planet itself, spreading out across its surface to corrupt the magma at the core. The only involvement with the Fang they had was a distraction in the catacombs below it where they sent a bunch of pyromancers in from below to cut the power, which they did. Not that it mattered.

And that Magnus actually reached his power out into space and flung the ships above him against each other, destroying them.

 Otto Weston wrote:
I know this isn't a great example but I'd like to put it forward because it makes sense from a fluff perspective.

------------------------------------------------------

I recently GM'd a Black Crusade mixed with Rogue Trader, where the players took a more macro perspective and ran a warband taking on an Imperial colony on the fringes of the Koronus Expanse. In the end, they won against the Imperial colony - outnumbered by about 4-1 and against an entrenched enemy.

How?;

1. Total disregard for collateral damage, it mattered not to them that the colony was ruined and unable to sustain itself afterwards. (In contrast, the Imperium wants to expand and keep land intact. It's why they outlawed Nukes because it renders valuable ground uninhabitable).

2. Daemonic entities. No need for logistics, transport, ammunition or maintenance. There are also many means available to release Daemons, which ruin Imperial Morale and defensive strategy. Used in combination with a combined arms offensive, they are downright dirty. (Seriously imagine yourself trying to organise an effective defense when you hear that your walls and fortifications have been simply ignored and horned daemons etc. are running around behind your lines cutting off your supply lines or destroying what you're protecting --- all whilst you're under attack from the front).

3. Enemy ignorance. The PDF/ Guard are trained to deal with Orks and common Xeno threats but suppressed knowledge of the existence of the great enemy hamstrings Imperial forces. (Whereas Chaos forces know and understand Imperial organisation and strategy well, their tactics are even designed to counter them.).

4. 'Divine' intervention. When Imperial forces pray to their God Emperor they get nothing (more often than not, once in a blue moon the LOTD appear), whereas when favoured chosen of chaos gods, either with sacrifice or deeds, pray for support... they get literal daemons or boons (more often than not, in contrast with the Imperials getting nothing). Try and stay loyal to your God Emperor then.

------------------------------------------------------

Whilst this all takes place in an RPG, I do believe it fits perfectly within 40k fluff. I just don't see the Imperium stacking up against Chaos on a normal world. Their only real strength is numbers.... and those numbers most often break or convert when subjected to the above.

Yes, all of these are good points. The problem is that in many of the books Chaos Warbands are responded to not only by PDF/Guard, but by Space Marines. Let's see how the factors you listed work when the enemy has power armor and plot armor too:

1: Yes, this can still work against Space Marines, but it gets more difficult because they're so hard to wear down.

2: Daemons are great and all but are cannon fodder to SM. Morale doesn't matter if they Know No Fear, and SM defensive strategies are supposed to have some way to deal with daemon summoning.

3: PDF/Guard may be ignorant about Chaos/xenos, but spacemarines aren't, making this irrelevant.

4: CSM pray to Chaos, get gribblies and random mutatoes. SM pray to Emps, get plot armor and reinforcements. SM pray to the author, get plot armor and become the heroes of the story guaranteeing their victory. SM pray to the codex writer, get better rules for free.

Earth127 wrote:
Didn't the reign of fire end because Angron just got bored and left? Tree chapters were needed for the cleanup.

I know the comparison with Sauron isn't perfect but the Abaddon Roknar describes is the one GW insists exists but never properly shows up (except in the first 3 HH books where we clearly see he's a badass commander).

I mean badly written by these two tropes being in full effect
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InformedAbility

That's pretty much my point. He DOES exist and it's similar with the rest of chaos, but they are all hamstringed by bad writing.
Especially Abaddon though as his meme has been perpetuated so long within the fan base that it has been accepted as truth.
That's something that annoys me a little. Nobody bothers to read between the lines and people rather just run with the him being a buffoon.

It's not his fault that like 90% of the lore we get is bolter porn and mary sueism from marines.
You don't get to be the effective warmaster of chaos space marines for so long by being a total failure. Unless you accept that the rest of the csm/daemon forces are even bigger failures.
Which makes no sense at all. Plus all we ever get to read are imperial perspective stories. The few times that we do get to read from the perspective of csm they are shown to be certified badasses.

With GW lore you kind of have to read it with a certain focus and a broader perspective at the same time. As a whole it doesn't make sense.
Take Magnus. Are you going to judge him of being a wimp and getting his ass handed to him by a bunch of drunk puppies and girl scouts, or do you tell a tale where he wanted to make the wolves lose their homeworld in much the same way he did?
Because in that that tale he achieved what he set out to do. Being beaten back physically is of little concern to somebody who is immortal, both in form and age. Perhaps even less so now that the planet of sorcerers is in real space.
He even got their allies to turn on them. Everything else was more than likely just a bonus to him and his success or failure should be measured by what is important to him. He doesn't share the same values as us mortals after all.

I'm sure it's possible to shine a much kinder light on Magnus and his endeavors than the one we have gotten so far. Same with chaos in general.
It's just really easy to forget that there is more to chaos than GW likes to spoon feed us.

 Roknar wrote:

Earth127 wrote:


I'm sure it's possible to shine a much kinder light on Magnus and his endeavors than the one we have gotten so far. Same with chaos in general.
It's just really easy to forget that there is more to chaos than GW likes to spoon feed us.

There really isn't. 'Chaos' doesn't exist. It is fiction written by Games Workshop - If Games Workshop writes them as idiots who fail constantly, then they are idiots who fail constantly. It is bad writing and it doesn't make sense,, but there it is. Your particular Chaos Warband might not be an idiot who fails constantly, but that's irrelevant: Chaos are a bunch of idiots who fail constantly.

They're GW's baby, and they are writing them like buffoons who fail at every endeavor they have.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:
I know this isn't a great example but I'd like to put it forward because it makes sense from a fluff perspective.

------------------------------------------------------

I recently GM'd a Black Crusade mixed with Rogue Trader, where the players took a more macro perspective and ran a warband taking on an Imperial colony on the fringes of the Koronus Expanse. In the end, they won against the Imperial colony - outnumbered by about 4-1 and against an entrenched enemy.

How?;

1. Total disregard for collateral damage, it mattered not to them that the colony was ruined and unable to sustain itself afterwards. (In contrast, the Imperium wants to expand and keep land intact. It's why they outlawed Nukes because it renders valuable ground uninhabitable).

2. Daemonic entities. No need for logistics, transport, ammunition or maintenance. There are also many means available to release Daemons, which ruin Imperial Morale and defensive strategy. Used in combination with a combined arms offensive, they are downright dirty. (Seriously imagine yourself trying to organise an effective defense when you hear that your walls and fortifications have been simply ignored and horned daemons etc. are running around behind your lines cutting off your supply lines or destroying what you're protecting --- all whilst you're under attack from the front).

3. Enemy ignorance. The PDF/ Guard are trained to deal with Orks and common Xeno threats but suppressed knowledge of the existence of the great enemy hamstrings Imperial forces. (Whereas Chaos forces know and understand Imperial organisation and strategy well, their tactics are even designed to counter them.).

4. 'Divine' intervention. When Imperial forces pray to their God Emperor they get nothing (more often than not, once in a blue moon the LOTD appear), whereas when favoured chosen of chaos gods, either with sacrifice or deeds, pray for support... they get literal daemons or boons (more often than not, in contrast with the Imperials getting nothing). Try and stay loyal to your God Emperor then.

------------------------------------------------------

Whilst this all takes place in an RPG, I do believe it fits perfectly within 40k fluff. I just don't see the Imperium stacking up against Chaos on a normal world. Their only real strength is numbers.... and those numbers most often break or convert when subjected to the above.

Yes, all of these are good points. The problem is that in many of the books Chaos Warbands are responded to not only by PDF/Guard, but by Space Marines. Let's see how the factors you listed work when the enemy has power armor and plot armor too:

1: Yes, this can still work against Space Marines, but it gets more difficult because they're so hard to wear down.

2: Daemons are great and all but are cannon fodder to SM. Morale doesn't matter if they Know No Fear, and SM defensive strategies are supposed to have some way to deal with daemon summoning.

3: PDF/Guard may be ignorant about Chaos/xenos, but spacemarines aren't, making this irrelevant.

4: CSM pray to Chaos, get gribblies and random mutatoes. SM pray to Emps, get plot armor and reinforcements. SM pray to the author, get plot armor and become the heroes of the story guaranteeing their victory. SM pray to the codex writer, get better rules for free.

I get your answer is 'Space Marines', yet Chaos has them too... so they should just cancel each other out making Space Marines on both sides in effect irrelevant to the power level discussion between Chaos and the Imperium. Leaving chaos with all the other benefits STILL over the Imperium (if you disregard plot armour).

I think you misunderstood me. They don't fail, at least not as much as people like to believe. Magnus did corrupt fenris, abaddon did open the cage on diamor, it's just a matter of time, but it's going to break. He obtained all the relics he ever wanted to. Angron was defeated, but let's not pretend like he was only facing a couple chapters. It's not like there were any guard present or titans or anything like that, nevermind butchering his way though entire sector for a century before that happened.

I'm saying GW manages to make their victories and baddassery look weak or non existant. Not giving them any success without immediately shutting them down in the most hamfisted way possible while still somehow giving them ultimate victory if you care to look for it.

Abbadon: "I will get you one day Imperium of man! Nehahahahah!" *twirls mustache while flying away on a heldrake*

 Roknar wrote:
I think you misunderstood me. They don't fail, at least not as much as people like to believe. Magnus did corrupt fenris, abaddon did open the cage on diamor, it's just a matter of time, but it's going to break. He obtained all the relics he ever wanted to. Angron was defeated, but let's not pretend like he was only facing a couple chapters. It's not like there were any guard present or titans or anything like that, nevermind butchering his way though entire sector for a century before that happened.

I'm saying GW manages to make their victories and baddassery look weak or non existant. Not giving them any success without immediately shutting them down in the most hamfisted way possible while still somehow giving them ultimate victory if you care to look for it.

Abaddon did get all the relics he wanted, like the Blackstone Fortress, which mightily showed up and got destroyed while simultaneously doing nothing. That was well worth a Black Crusade that cost him many, many precious troops he needed to invade Earth.

Or his 11th Black Crusade where he kidnapped a bunch of Orks and learned absolutely nothing concretely useful. That was well worth the Black Crusade that cost him many, many precious troops he needed to invade Earth.

Or the 8th Black Crusade, where he killed enough people to create a mathematical equation which had no concrete applications and cost him many, many precious troops he needed to invade Earth.

He is truly a tactical genius whose success is assured.

My impression was that the 8th Black Crusade was basically a big feat to gain favor with Tzeentch. Abaddon appears to be balancing between the gods, doing things to please each one but never fully aligning himself with one. While such acts may not directly result in material gain, the favor of a Chaos god would be of use in the future. Of course the god in question might also reward by giving Chaos gifts to Abaddon or his followers.

Iracundus wrote:
My impression was that the 8th Black Crusade was basically a big feat to gain favor with Tzeentch. Abaddon appears to be balancing between the gods, doing things to please each one but never fully aligning himself with one. While such acts may not directly result in material gain, the favor of a Chaos god would be of use in the future. Of course the god in question might also reward by giving Chaos gifts to Abaddon or his followers.

That would depend on whether or not his material gain with Tzeentch actually did anything. It did not, and I am willing to bet will not.

After all, the Blackstone Fortresses didn't do anything and his crusade to gain Greenskins for experimentation didn't bear anything out.

Most of his Crusades didn't get anything of concrete worth. Drach'nyen - That was a win for Abaddon, since that was the Demon that said he would kill the Emperor and the Emperor responded with 'Maybe, but not today'.

But for the most part, his crusades have born little to no fruit.

except the blackstone fortress DID do something. without that fortress Cadia would NOT have fallen. yes he lost it, but in the long run clearly abbaddon didn't have a pressing need for the things. I mean apparently he was willing to gift one to the red cosairs. which suggests whatever he needed the things for (and he already ahd the planet killer so clearly it wasn't a despirate desire for a death star super laser) he's likely.. already got.

as for what he gained from Tzeetch, with the gods it's hard to tell, simply maintaining their favor is proably priceless.