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Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, one more thing: list tailoring is not a good way to learn how to play. You don't always know the nature or even the codex of your next opponent.

Im pretty sure list tailoring hasn't come up. What are you talking about? if by that you mean "Adjusting successfully to the new reality of the people you play" then i guess its tailoring. i don't see it that way. You're an idiot if you dont adjust to the people you are playing. Just saying.

There's a big difference between meta consideration and specific information about a specific list. Using that knowledge is not cool.

Meh. I can't get excited about it. I play against such a big field that you just have to adopt the toolbag approach. Ghostkeels are excellent against ENOUGH problems that while we are talking HERE about the Astra Militarum (and therefore we are limiting comments to that) these same comments can be said against a multiplicity of forces. The same qualities are there against whatevs.

i mean right now there is a player who is trying to build his Genestealers and i am one of his few Guinea pigs right now. So he is doing what is natural: building his force to match up well against what he's seeing. As he gets to SEE more, he will expand his thinking to include more. But when the problem in front of you today is not solved.. What is the point in worrying about the rest?

So all anyone does on these forums is asks specific questions that we can answer about specific matchups and he'll take it into consideration for his overall list. And maybe he will likeGhostkeels and maybe he wont. I dont care. I play with them as often as I don't so the goal isnt to sell him on doing this one thing. Its to make sure he can imagine all the things it can do for him.

There may be no unit in the arsenal that can cause the havoc this can, against an armored foe...which was his interest. No need to get self righteous about him changing his list to adapt. You adapt or you die. I have encouraged you, Martel, to do the same a number of times. There ARe things you can do to make your Blood Angels stronger as we have been discussing in our short sidebar. consider the tactical notes i gave you there and apply them. Maybe the OP will apply what Im saying but either way, he's gotta beat the AV 14 wall in front of him before he can adjust his sights further methinks.

I completely disagree with that philisophy. Tailoring for the av 14 wall doesn't actually help you learn how to beat it with a balanced list. Unless, if course, the plan is to balance the list out with the other units.

I've a list with 13 tanks and one with zero. I'm not telling my opponent which one is coming. The whole point is that one tries to overload antitank and the makes anti-tank wasteful. They rely on my opponent not being able to adjust.

You are free to disagree, as ever. But I dont care enough to get up in arms on the issue. He has his answer from me.

Fair enough.

As a guard player, I would say use the deepstriking crisis suits with fusion blaster. The reason I suggest this is because it's slightly more flexible and lower entry cost. I don't know what the range on the optimized stealth cadre's weapons are, but unless it's 36" or more, a good guard player should not have much trouble keeping those guns off their tanks.

The second reason is that ghostkeels can still be ID'd by str 10 weaponry so a lucky shot could go very badly for you. I know when I fight tau, I usually bring a Stormsword because it can easily destroy an optimized stealth cadre without even targeting it. IG has a fair bit of str 10 weaponry and even a 2+ cover save will fail at some point.

Lastly, IG has easy access to ignores cover weaponry. When I'm not using a stormsword against tau, I'm using an emp's wrath artillery battery and dropping ignores cover basilisk and manticore shots anywhere on the board I want before anything can get in range to fire back.

Deepstrike crisis suits will work better because they're simply harder for IG to counter. The only way IG can really counter them is by filling board space with bodies.

Can't ghostkeels deep strike, too?

Martel732 wrote:
Can't ghostkeels deep strike, too?

yes



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
As a guard player, I would say use the deepstriking crisis suits with fusion blaster. The reason I suggest this is because it's slightly more flexible and lower entry cost. I don't know what the range on the optimized stealth cadre's weapons are, but unless it's 36" or more, a good guard player should not have much trouble keeping those guns off their tanks.
.

Ghostkeels have 18" Fusion or 24" Ion Raker's

The range to the ghostkeels is usually going to be 18" plus jet move. Maybe 9 plus jet if they need melta or 24 plus jet if they just fire rakers.

Rail Guns.

 Tsol wrote:
Rail Guns.

Wrong answer, actually.

My OSC is clocking in at just over 600 if I remember correctly (list's at home). I've got three 'keels all with rakers, TL flamers, EWO and TL on one and VT on another and two 3-man stealth units - no upgrades. Those guys I usually use as line breakers or if I spot a soft target they'll go DS behind them.

I suspect I run mine completely differently. I run most of my list as one big turtle moving around the board pew-pewing. I sort of accept the fact that people see tau and think "Ok, all I need to do is assault and the game is over". I haven't gone so far as adding the BS2 overwatch (although that's a good one for the OSC - need to see if I can fit that in)

In my club it's really WAAC so I see a lot of drop pod lists, flying circuses, electrodisplacement shenanigans, Eldar in general, etc. so you really need to accept that you're going to get something in your grill on turn 1 or 2. I've also tried to build in a little "oh my God my dice are really running cold" hence the flamers.

I played on Monday and a space marine skyhammer annihilation force dropped in on me turn 1 where he dropped in both pods of grav units and both units of assault squads and even with the drone network (which I took specifically for this exact situation) I managed to only kill 4 dudes in one assault squad and 2 devastators after firing three units of ML drones, a riptide, the OSC and a stormsurge (an ungodly number of armor and FNP saves on his part)! That's like my worst dice rolling nightmare and made the game an up hill battle with all of his other toys. In the last turn of that game a decked out space marine captain annihilated my OSC in a single round of combat (I did manage to eek out a minor victory though only because the game ended on turn 5).

Yeah, I do play a little defensively

To the OP the OSC eats IG vehicles all day long and so does the storm surge+ML with his destroyer missles.

 necron99 wrote:

To the OP the OSC eats IG vehicles all day long and so does the storm surge+ML with his destroyer missles.

So true

It's like asking how does tau beat footslogging grot-tide, duh.

Martel732 wrote:
Go punch them with your MCs. I'm not joking. IG basically can't hurt large Tau suits, so go step on their tanks.

This is without a doubt the correct answer. I once spammed AV 14 vs a Riptide heavy Tau player. I won because he refused to simply punch my rear AV10 tanks and instead chose to try and blast through the AV14 hull down front armor. Just walk up to the tanks (they wont kill your riptides unless you give them many turns of shooting) and punch them.

Edit: Deepstriking is also a good answer.

Jancoran's osc obviously works as well. But tau certainly don't need to tailor. Get the d shotgun stormsurge and push it up the board.

Martel732 wrote:
Jancoran's osc obviously works as well. But tau certainly don't need to tailor. Get the d shotgun stormsurge and push it up the board.

That's what i do. I MIGHT have dropped AND USED my Pylons in all of a total of three games. So really... i prefer the shotgun,.

D is rare and precious and even more precious if you can get it without using marker lights.

I have better ideas for my opponents' lists than I do my own lol.