Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Charistoph wrote:

So, the only reason people take Terminators is the Storm Bolter? No wonder you think they suck.

Did i say that?

Nope.

People don't really use terminators, and the storm bolter isn't helping in its current form. It could easily be changed from nonsense garbage into something actually worthwhile.

Giving terminators +1 wound, and -1 move speed, while changing nothing else, will not help them be effective. In fact that wound is an illusion as a lot of stuff will rend right through that 2+ save.

Of course all of this is predicated on their cost. If terminators cost the same as an imperial guardsman then yeah, they're super strong.

Everything is always predicated on cost. 50 pt scatbikes are garbage, 37 pts is fair and 27 is what we have.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

So, the only reason people take Terminators is the Storm Bolter? No wonder you think they suck.

Did i say that?

Nope.

People don't really use terminators, and the storm bolter isn't helping in its current form. It could easily be changed from nonsense garbage into something actually worthwhile.

Giving terminators +1 wound, and -1 move speed, while changing nothing else, will not help them be effective. In fact that wound is an illusion as a lot of stuff will rend right through that 2+ save.

Of course all of this is predicated on their cost. If terminators cost the same as an imperial guardsman then yeah, they're super strong.

You agreed with it. "If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage." And that is without considering the point cost being put forth for the unit, what they will regularly be facing, and what, if any, other special rules they may be carrying in the reset.

If you pardon the pun, The Terminators' punch is no more tied to the Storm Bolter than a Tactical Squad is to the Boltgun. Their strengths lie in their Power Fists and Heavy Weapons.

Martel732 wrote:
Everything is always predicated on cost. 50 pt scatbikes are garbage, 37 pts is fair and 27 is what we have.

I would say 27 would be fine if they kept them what they once were with 1 heavy per 3 ... but alas they are currently undercoated. I am not sure they are 37 points good, but 32 would probably be appropriate, 96 points for 3 highly mobile units but still fairly fragile T4 1W models

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I put it in another thread on this already but with the "new GW" why would they just recently start selling stand alone scatter dices for like $1 if they were just getting rid of them? I imagine they will be used still in deep strike, but of course I have no source here, just a guess

Well, they've confirmed that scatter dice are out, so perhaps they're trying to just liquidate old stock.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

So, the only reason people take Terminators is the Storm Bolter? No wonder you think they suck.

Did i say that?

Nope.

People don't really use terminators, and the storm bolter isn't helping in its current form. It could easily be changed from nonsense garbage into something actually worthwhile.

Giving terminators +1 wound, and -1 move speed, while changing nothing else, will not help them be effective. In fact that wound is an illusion as a lot of stuff will rend right through that 2+ save.

Of course all of this is predicated on their cost. If terminators cost the same as an imperial guardsman then yeah, they're super strong.

You agreed with it. "If the stormbolter still sucks, terminators will still be garbage." And that is without considering the point cost being put forth for the unit, what they will regularly be facing, and what, if any, other special rules they may be carrying in the reset.

If you pardon the pun, The Terminators' punch is no more tied to the Storm Bolter than a Tactical Squad is to the Boltgun. Their strengths lie in their Power Fists and Heavy Weapons.

Yes, *all things equal*, terminators without shields need a buff to storm bolters to be viable.

Obviously i can't make a statement about the cost because I don't know what the cost will be. We don't know what 8th will bring, so all of this is speculation based on what we know, versus what we already have.

here's my current chain of reasoning:

1. if you view terminators as a melee unit, there's basically 0 reason to go with power fist + bolter versus storm shield + hammer. of course this is all assuming things stay relatively the same.

2. The key differentiator in this scenario is the heavy and the storm bolter.

3. One heavy isn't really enough unless it's really good (again, we don't know), so the key question is if the storm bolters are worth it over the shield combo.

But seriously no one takes terminators for the storm bolter. But it IS an aspect of the unit, and if it sucks, that means a part of the terminators & their cost is devoted to something that sucks.

TAC Marines boltguns actually did stuff against 5+... taking that away is indeed a nerf.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yes, *all things equal*, terminators without shields need a buff to storm bolters to be viable.

Obviously i can't make a statement about the cost because I don't know what the cost will be. We don't know what 8th will bring, so all of this is speculation based on what we know, versus what we already have.

here's my current chain of reasoning:

1. if you view terminators as a melee unit, there's basically 0 reason to go with power fist + bolter versus storm shield + hammer. of course this is all assuming things stay relatively the same.

2. The key differentiator in this scenario is the heavy and the storm bolter.

3. One heavy isn't really enough unless it's really good (again, we don't know), so the key question is if the storm bolters are worth it over the shield combo.

But seriously no one takes terminators for the storm bolter. But it IS an aspect of the unit, and if it sucks, that means a part of the terminators & their cost is devoted to something that sucks.

If no one takes Terminators for the Storm Bolter, than any changes to it will not greatly affect the performance of the unit any more than changes to the Bolt Pistol's performance would affect an Assault Marine's.

The key point to Terminator Squads over Assault Terminator Squads is that they can shoot better than an Assault Squad. The Storm Bolters barely do anything in that regard, but the Assault Cannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and even the Heavy Flamers, do something in that regard. They also have the advantage of hitting very hard in Melee if the case demands it, just as hard as the Thunder Hammers.

The problem is that the flexibility of the Tactical Terminator Squad is over-shadowed by the preference of using units which excel in one phase or that can survive to make it to their powerful Phase. TacTerms can reduce the fire coming in to them by shooting the shooters, while the HamTerms have to weather the shooting as they cannot respond until they Charge, but are generally better at surviving anything that is shooting at them.

 Marmatag wrote:
TAC Marines boltguns actually did stuff against 5+... taking that away is indeed a nerf.

The reference to Tac Marines was not about how good or bad the Boltgun is, but rather WHY you take the Tac Squad in the first place. It wasn't for the Boltguns in 7th Edition, and it won't be for the Boltguns in 8th Edition. It MIGHT be the reason in 30K, but let's face the reality in that situation by acknowledging that 20 Boltguns firing 3 shots starts getting in to scary territory to anything not relying on medium Vehicle Armour.

Tac Squads are taken in 7th Edition because they can take Weapons that Scout Squads cannot, chiefly Special Weapons and most of the Heavy Weapon options.

If the ability to assault from deepstrike like in AoS is gained the Tactical Terminators gain a use in the ability to soften up a unit with guns and then charge after.

Assaults hit harder and have more defensive ability, but the tacticals may be far better for charging from deepstrike.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Assaults hit harder and have more defensive ability, but the tacticals may be far better for charging from deepstrike.

Assaults do not hit harder, unless we are considering that the Sergeant in the Assault Squad can get the Thunder Hammer. The Thunder Hammer's only current advantage over the Power Fist is Concussive, which is as defensive as the Storm Shield.

I should mention I mostly play CSM, and the last time I've seen tactical terminators was sometime in 5th. I had entirely forgotten they had Power Fists.

I'm not sure what you're arguing to be honest.

If you're setting out to prove the storm bolter and boltgun are totally superfluous objects in the game and cannot be used tactically, isn't that evidence that they should be buffed, not nerfed?

The thunder hammer is strictly superior to the power fist.
The shield is strictly superior to the storm bolter.

The lightning claws do cause you to lose out on the power fist and storm bolter, but they let you reroll wounds and strike at initiative.

Stock termies with a heavy are the worst incarnation of terminators...

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not sure what you're arguing to be honest.

Odd, I thought I was quite clear on this issue. Storm Bolters are not the defining characteristic of Tactical Terminators. If they remain equivalent, that does not make the Terminators automatically garbage because that's not why you take the Tactical Terminator Squad.

If their Heavy Weapons turn out to be as desirable as Storm Bolters, you have a point.

 Marmatag wrote:
If you're setting out to prove the storm bolter and boltgun are totally superfluous objects in the game and cannot be used tactically, isn't that evidence that they should be buffed, not nerfed?

Not at all. I am saying that the Storm Bolter is no more the reason to take Tactical Terminators than Boltguns are to taking Tactical Marines. They still have their uses, tactically, but they aren't a reason to say, "Oooh, I got a Storm Bolter!".

 Marmatag wrote:
The thunder hammer is strictly superior to the power fist.

Defensively, but not offensively. Offensively, they are equal. They hit at the same Strength and at the same Initiative.

 Marmatag wrote:
The shield is strictly superior to the storm bolter.

Offensively, the Storm Bolter has a use, while the Storm Shield does not.

Defensively, the Storm Shield is semi-superior. It helps the bearer survive incoming fire, but it can't do much in decreasing incoming fire like a Storm Bolter can.

 Marmatag wrote:
The lightning claws do cause you to lose out on the power fist and storm bolter, but they let you reroll wounds and strike at initiative.

And add an additional Attack, but only in melee. Lack of grenades can be problematic for them, though. At least with Hammers and Fists, you don't care if you are Charging through terrain or not.

 Marmatag wrote:
Stock termies with a heavy are the worst incarnation of terminators...

No, Tactical Terminators only with the base gear are the worse incarnation of Terminators, except maybe base Chaos Terminators.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not sure what you're arguing to be honest.

Odd, I thought I was quite clear on this issue. Storm Bolters are not the defining characteristic of Tactical Terminators. If they remain equivalent, that does not make the Terminators automatically garbage because that's not why you take the Tactical Terminator Squad.

I am not arguing they're the defining characteristic. However, they ARE a characteristic. And they are a characteristic that you pay points for.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If you're setting out to prove the storm bolter and boltgun are totally superfluous objects in the game and cannot be used tactically, isn't that evidence that they should be buffed, not nerfed?

Not at all. I am saying that the Storm Bolter is no more the reason to take Tactical Terminators than Boltguns are to taking Tactical Marines. They still have their uses, tactically, but they aren't a reason to say, "Oooh, I got a Storm Bolter!".

Actually the firepower that comes with a tactical squad isn't meaningless. You don't have a choice for another weapon with the TAC squad (other than heavy/special), and they're a part of your troops. So you're creating an illusion of choice where it doesn't exist. We are forced to pay for these guns. And frankly, at AP5 they're better than AP-. You're also making an implicit value judgment regarding the storm bolter. Why shouldn't getting a storm bolter be reason for excitement?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The thunder hammer is strictly superior to the power fist.

Defensively, but not offensively. Offensively, they are equal. They hit at the same Strength and at the same Initiative.

One has concussive one does not. This creates value. Whether you want to call it defensive or not, is completely and totally irrelevant.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The shield is strictly superior to the storm bolter.

Offensively, the Storm Bolter has a use, while the Storm Shield does not.

Again offensive versus defensive is totally and completely irrelevant here. The storm shield allows the terminators to deal more damage in melee as more of them will survive to actually get there, and swing.

 Charistoph wrote:
Defensively, the Storm Shield is semi-superior. It helps the bearer survive incoming fire, but it can't do much in decreasing incoming fire like a Storm Bolter can.

Ah so, you're coming around. If the storm bolter has a use and a job, maybe you could refine what it is you're thinking here, and extrapolate on why the storm bolter has value in this scenario. Expand to the general case.

I still think that if the stormbolter is just two s4 shots with no ap that tactical terminators will continue to be crap. Their heavy weapon is likewise awful. Tac terminators don't decrease incoming fire in any meaningful way. That's their main problem.

There has never really been a reason to bring tac terminators. Ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything is always predicated on cost. 50 pt scatbikes are garbage, 37 pts is fair and 27 is what we have.

I would say 27 would be fine if they kept them what they once were with 1 heavy per 3 ... but alas they are currently undercoated. I am not sure they are 37 points good, but 32 would probably be appropriate, 96 points for 3 highly mobile units but still fairly fragile T4 1W models

32 is still far too cheap. S6 is simply too good in 7th ed on a jsj platform.

Martel732 wrote:

32 is still far too cheap. S6 is simply too good in 7th ed on a jsj platform.

With no more AV and the confirmation (I think) that even str4 can wound anything on a '6', I do not think str 6 with be so magically in 8th.
Even if the S v T chart is the same as it is now, a bolter can wound a T7 Dread on 6+. The days of str 6 weapons being a dramatic increase in effectiveness are over.

And we have no seen the points for anything, nor the profiles for Windriders. I am hopeful that GW can strike a balance that keeps them good, but not as good as they are now.
Just shy of "auto-include" should be the goal for any unit.

As for Terminators, so far I think they will be pretty good. Having 2 wounds is a big step in the right direction. Even with AP being save modifiers, they will still be more than twice as tough as a Marine (which they currently are not)

2 wounds but factor in the amount of -savemod fire, and now that we know mortal wounds are a thing, and bypass invuln saves... You have to wonder how long terminators will really last.

With a 5" move they're not going to be able to effectively stay out of LOS of these shooting units while advancing.

Of course we don't know about deep strike charge.. that might be possible for units in terminator armor.

 Marmatag wrote:
2 wounds but factor in the amount of -savemod fire, and now that we know mortal wounds are a thing, and bypass invuln saves... You have to wonder how long terminators will really last.

With a 5" move they're not going to be able to effectively stay out of LOS of these shooting units while advancing.

Of course we don't know about deep strike charge.. that might be possible for units in terminator armor.

I would put money on nothing lasting very long in 8th. Games are going to be BLOODY.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm not sure what you're arguing to be honest.

Odd, I thought I was quite clear on this issue. Storm Bolters are not the defining characteristic of Tactical Terminators. If they remain equivalent, that does not make the Terminators automatically garbage because that's not why you take the Tactical Terminator Squad.

I am not arguing they're the defining characteristic. However, they ARE a characteristic. And they are a characteristic that you pay points for.

Then you shouldn't be relying on them to determine on if a model is garbage, yes?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If you're setting out to prove the storm bolter and boltgun are totally superfluous objects in the game and cannot be used tactically, isn't that evidence that they should be buffed, not nerfed?

Not at all. I am saying that the Storm Bolter is no more the reason to take Tactical Terminators than Boltguns are to taking Tactical Marines. They still have their uses, tactically, but they aren't a reason to say, "Oooh, I got a Storm Bolter!".

Actually the firepower that comes with a tactical squad isn't meaningless. You don't have a choice for another weapon with the TAC squad (other than heavy/special), and they're a part of your troops. So you're creating an illusion of choice where it doesn't exist. We are forced to pay for these guns. And frankly, at AP5 they're better than AP-. You're also making an implicit value judgment regarding the storm bolter. Why shouldn't getting a storm bolter be reason for excitement?

But there is a choice when it comes to Terminators. No shooting at all or meh shooting supporting a heavy gun. And when it comes to Elites, there are a lot of choices to take over any Terminator for one reason or another.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The thunder hammer is strictly superior to the power fist.

Defensively, but not offensively. Offensively, they are equal. They hit at the same Strength and at the same Initiative.

One has concussive one does not. This creates value. Whether you want to call it defensive or not, is completely and totally irrelevant.

A minor value at best. Against most things a Thunder Hammer will hit, it is useless. They either have no Initiative to be affected or they are dead. And Thunder Hammers cost more to field as well.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The shield is strictly superior to the storm bolter.

Offensively, the Storm Bolter has a use, while the Storm Shield does not.

Again offensive versus defensive is totally and completely irrelevant here. The storm shield allows the terminators to deal more damage in melee as more of them will survive to actually get there, and swing.

Actually quite relevant. They are part of the pros and cons of the situation. The Storm Bolter allows the Terminators to deal damage before getting in to Melee, especially in situations where they won't get in to Melee. Dead models can't shoot back.

Answer this question, Which will help me kill a Crisis Suit or Warp Spider faster, a Storm Shield or a Storm Bolter?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Defensively, the Storm Shield is semi-superior. It helps the bearer survive incoming fire, but it can't do much in decreasing incoming fire like a Storm Bolter can.

Ah so, you're coming around. If the storm bolter has a use and a job, maybe you could refine what it is you're thinking here, and extrapolate on why the storm bolter has value in this scenario. Expand to the general case.

There is no coming around. It has a use and a job. I am not the one calling a unit garbage simply because they have them. Storm Bolters simply are not the reason to take a unit. Even Sternguard are not taken because of their abilities to take Storm Bolters.

One takes a Tactical Terminator Squad because of its Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile Launcher. The Storm Bolters support that Weapon in its role by allowing the rest of the unit to shoot with something. If I really want a mix of Terminators, I'd pull Wolf Guard or Deathwing for that job.