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Watch as GW trolls all the tyranid players (save 2) by making pyrovores one of the best units the Hive Fleets have. Something like 8" d6 autohits S5 ap-2 dam2
Thing is, that doesn't even seem like an unreasonable profile for all the information that has been released so far. Pyrovores very well might be one of the very best things out there.
Ridiculous.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: Will be real nice to see what tyrgons and mawlocks are like in the new edition. And Carnifex. And Exocrine.... etc
What about Pyrovores?
Won't it be weird to not have the pyrovore be the worst unit in the game? I don't even know what to think of that.
Pyrovores were the worst until they finally did Tyranocytes.
Since then I'd say the main worst unit in the game is Ogryns.
You've clearly never used the entirety of the SoB's elites selections.
Repentia aren't terrible. They're not great, but they're not actively bad. I've had a positive effect out of them, and they're 155 a squad for 4 attacks/model with Armourbane at Str.6 AP 2 on the charge.
Sororitas Command Squad is fairly decent.
Celestians are basically Battle Sisters with a veteran profile for 2 points more per model. Their problem is that you pay 2 points for improved weapon skill, leaderships, attacks, and a melee-oriented act of faith, but they can only take the same [ranged] loadout as regular Sisters.
Crusaders are fairly decent, and are cheap.
Death Cult Assassins are also not aggressively bad and are inexpensive.
I can't see a reason to have Flagellants over Dealth Cult, though.
I can't comment on Ogryns. I don't like the models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/20 18:41:49
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Lance845 wrote: Will be real nice to see what tyrgons and mawlocks are like in the new edition. And Carnifex. And Exocrine.... etc
What about Pyrovores?
Won't it be weird to not have the pyrovore be the worst unit in the game? I don't even know what to think of that.
Pyrovores were the worst until they finally did Tyranocytes.
Since then I'd say the main worst unit in the game is Ogryns.
You've clearly never used the entirety of the SoB's elites selections.
Repentia aren't terrible. They're not great, but they're not actively bad. I've had a positive effect out of them, and they're 155 a squad for 4 attacks/model with Armourbane at Str.6 AP 2 on the charge.
Sororitas Command Squad is fairly decent.
Celestians are basically Battle Sisters with a veteran profile for 2 points more per model. Their problem is that you pay 2 points for improved weapon skill, leaderships, attacks, and a melee-oriented act of faith, but they can only take the same [ranged] loadout as regular Sisters.
Crusaders are fairly decent, and are cheap.
Death Cult Assassins are also not aggressively bad and are inexpensive.
I can't see a reason to have Flagellants over Dealth Cult, though.
I can't comment on Ogryns. I don't like the models.
You know, ive seen people say that tyrannocytes make pyrovores usable. I call bs.
Pyrovores have instinctive behaviour. For 40ppm you get a short range weapons platform that you COULD deepstrike in (with all acompanying potential issues) so it could unload 1-3 of the things, MAYBE get to use their weapon once if the randomness of deepstrike was favorable, and then in all likelyhood loose control of them next turn.
No other army would ever accept that list of luck and circumstance for so little effect and such a high cost.
No. The tyrannocyte gave pyrovores a chance to do anything. Which was a step up. But it never stopped them from being utter garbage.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: Will be real nice to see what tyrgons and mawlocks are like in the new edition. And Carnifex. And Exocrine.... etc
What about Pyrovores?
Won't it be weird to not have the pyrovore be the worst unit in the game? I don't even know what to think of that.
Pyrovores were the worst until they finally did Tyranocytes.
Since then I'd say the main worst unit in the game is Ogryns.
You've clearly never used the entirety of the SoB's elites selections.
Repentia aren't terrible. They're not great, but they're not actively bad. I've had a positive effect out of them, and they're 155 a squad for 4 attacks/model with Armourbane at Str.6 AP 2 on the charge.
Sororitas Command Squad is fairly decent.
Celestians are basically Battle Sisters with a veteran profile for 2 points more per model. Their problem is that you pay 2 points for improved weapon skill, leaderships, attacks, and a melee-oriented act of faith, but they can only take the same [ranged] loadout as regular Sisters.
Crusaders are fairly decent, and are cheap.
Death Cult Assassins are also not aggressively bad and are inexpensive.
I can't see a reason to have Flagellants over Dealth Cult, though.
I can't comment on Ogryns. I don't like the models.
Only 2 of those were elites in the non imperial abortion codex and I disagree about repentia and think you were heavily glossing over just how terrible celestians are for that extra 2 points per model.
Only 2 stats matter to SoBBS and leadership and paying 2 points for +1ld at the cost of losing a solid AoF in exchange for a completely unusable AoF is asinine. Celestians are terrible because your basic line troop does the same job better for cheaper.
All of these units pale next to the terribleness of the godhammer landraider. Pay *250* pts to make your list worse.
One of the few times someone actually touched my stuff in anger was a land raider godhammer getting immobilized by a grav biker. I had to glue my biker back together after dude cooled off.
The liabilities of using the current land raider are unmatched in 7th imo.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/20 21:24:15
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I don't know. Was just trying to put it in perspective. There's 50 pt fails, 100 pt fails, and then 250 pt fails. I'll go with flushing only 50 pts thanks.
Lance845 wrote: Will be real nice to see what tyrgons and mawlocks are like in the new edition. And Carnifex. And Exocrine.... etc
What about Pyrovores?
Won't it be weird to not have the pyrovore be the worst unit in the game? I don't even know what to think of that.
Pyrovores were the worst until they finally did Tyranocytes.
Since then I'd say the main worst unit in the game is Ogryns.
You've clearly never used the entirety of the SoB's elites selections.
Repentia aren't terrible. They're not great, but they're not actively bad. I've had a positive effect out of them, and they're 155 a squad for 4 attacks/model with Armourbane at Str.6 AP 2 on the charge.
Sororitas Command Squad is fairly decent.
Celestians are basically Battle Sisters with a veteran profile for 2 points more per model. Their problem is that you pay 2 points for improved weapon skill, leaderships, attacks, and a melee-oriented act of faith, but they can only take the same [ranged] loadout as regular Sisters.
Crusaders are fairly decent, and are cheap.
Death Cult Assassins are also not aggressively bad and are inexpensive.
I can't see a reason to have Flagellants over Dealth Cult, though.
I can't comment on Ogryns. I don't like the models.
Hellions say hi.
Immateria is right. Hellions are garbage. Also nobody would ever take them when they could take reavers for slightly more points or scourge or venoms or anything else really.
I'm still leaning towards Malice myself. When I build and play lists out of the current Tyranid Codex, and I try to theme those lists I can't help but feel that GW is there judging my efforts.
Me: I built a hoard army with lots of little bugs.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've made it easy for your opponent to kill a few models and the entire army falls apart.
Me: I built a Nidzilla army with lots of Tyranid MC's.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've given some MC's extremely poor rules (Maleceptor, Hauroxpex) while others have non-synergising instinctive behavior (dakkafex can't shoot if it fails)
Me: I want to run an assault based Tyranid Army.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've made most tyranids pretty ineffective in close combat thanks to WS 3, and few attacks. Good luck killing even a handful of rhinos.
Me: I like medium bugs like warriors, and Raveners.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've made them S4 T4, so they can't hurt big things, and Big thing usually instant kill them. HAHAHA
Me: I like flying bugs like Crones and Flyrants.
GW: You have chosen correctly. That is how we want you to play.
Sometimes it feels like I'm playing an army they wish would be an NPC. The rules were written with a cavalier disregard for fluff, and with a designed to be as much of a hindrance to playing the army as they are a help.
It just seems like incompetence wouldn't be so consistent, and indifference would have seen fewer changes in the last Tyranid Codex, and fewer supplemental rules. It just feels like alot of effort and intention went into making Tyranids bad when compared to other armies.
Actually, I voted wrong. This would be Malicious, because this is simply made to sell more Trygon and various Tyranid kits. It's too good not to use, so you buy more of them.
27th Member of D.O.O.M.F.A.R.T.
Resident Battletech Guru.
This thread is acting like the Trygon is the only broken thing. GW hasn't cared about balance for 2 editions prior to 8th. So I guess "not caring" is my choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mixed with incompetence
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/21 04:33:54
tag8833 wrote: I'm still leaning towards Malice myself. When I build and play lists out of the current Tyranid Codex, and I try to theme those lists I can't help but feel that GW is there judging my efforts.
Me: I built a hoard army with lots of little bugs.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've made it easy for your opponent to kill a few models and the entire army falls apart.
Me: I built a Nidzilla army with lots of Tyranid MC's.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've given some MC's extremely poor rules (Maleceptor, Hauroxpex) while others have non-synergising instinctive behavior (dakkafex can't shoot if it fails)
Me: I want to run an assault based Tyranid Army.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've made most tyranids pretty ineffective in close combat thanks to WS 3, and few attacks. Good luck killing even a handful of rhinos.
Me: I like medium bugs like warriors, and Raveners.
GW: We don't want you to play that way, so we've made them S4 T4, so they can't hurt big things, and Big thing usually instant kill them. HAHAHA
Me: I like flying bugs like Crones and Flyrants.
GW: You have chosen correctly. That is how we want you to play.
Sometimes it feels like I'm playing an army they wish would be an NPC. The rules were written with a cavalier disregard for fluff, and with a designed to be as much of a hindrance to playing the army as they are a help.
It just seems like incompetence wouldn't be so consistent, and indifference would have seen fewer changes in the last Tyranid Codex, and fewer supplemental rules. It just feels like alot of effort and intention went into making Tyranids bad when compared to other armies.
While I agree with most of your post I've emboldened the part that particularly strikes home. It does seem to be the perception from GW and many non-Tyranid players.
Add to that most (loyalist) Marine players getting slightly miffed whenever something in my Tyranid army doesn't die to their shooting, or - god forbid - kills some Space Marines in hand-to-hand combat. I'll skip my usual moan about Space Marine players but I am quite worried by two things in Eighth Edition so far.
Firstly, that GW may well feel that Tyranids need individual personalities to get gamers to identify with them. I don't. I identity with the swarm, or even the Hive Mind. I'll cry inside if they continue down this road but I won't sell my army*
Secondly, and possibly worse is the way they are ramping SM up to 'match the fluff'. There's a feedback loop between the fiction written about Marines and their tabletop abilities. I will be pleasantly surprised if GW haven't written our special rules to ham string us as much as they help us.
I remember when trying to grind down elite units with three or four to one odds in our favour got broken by an edition change because losing in Synapse range suddenly doubled our potential casualties.
The fluff paints SM have being able to tot up kill-ratios of seventy or eighty to one against Tyranids. Assuming GW don't want me to carry several hundred models to a game, or my opponent just to play with one Tac squad I need to have some very effective unit 'recycling' rules.
To address the Trygon specifically. I started playing Nids with Second Edition. When Carnifexes were the hardest things to kill in the game (T10, W12 before upgrades). Genestealers were feared by pretty much anything. A couple of years ago when I last played a guy was annoyed that his Assault Terminator squad didn't one round my Trygon. Not only that...but my Trygon had killed two of his terminators.
I think the problem is that the plot-armoured heroism of the protagonists in the books or background has become synonymous with that of 'normal' marines on the tabletop. Killing a Trygon should be an act of huge heroism, skill and no little luck for a mighty hero....but players now expect their unnamed plebs with a Thunder Hammer to be able to do the same. Their guys hit harder than our TMC and effectively have as many wounds thanks to INV saves.
To draw an analogy from the movies. Space Marines have always been 'super soliders'. Back in the day that meant something like the dudes from Universal Soldier**. Very tough, highly trained, etc. Nowadays when people think of 'super soldiers' they think Captain America. When people have that image in their head, it's no wonder they get annoyed that some silly little bug killed their hero dudesman.
If GW fix the Trygon for Eighth it will be a killing machine that flips over tanks, scythes through a squad of Marines and gives even Heroes pause for thought. Given the UberMarines background and the clear "it's Chaos vs Imperium" vibe we have seen so far I don't feel hopeful. Maybe we should start a #TyranidsarenotNPCs campaign?
Assuming 
