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 Future War Cultist wrote:
Picking my copy up this weekend, but please tell me this. Do units still require unit leaders? .

They do not - but then, they are not required in Age of Sigmar either...

 auticus wrote:
Skirmish with heroes running around isn't something that I wanted to see. I prefer the old skirmishes which were mainly normal dudes backed up by an elite model or two.

This is more or less what I think will happen, due to the points involved - one hero (and a low-ranking one at that - we are talking Herald or Skink Starpriest territory), with some goons. It may be (will confirm after a few games!) a major effort to get a second hero on board, never mind the more powerful ones.

 Bottle wrote:
I would definitely recommend starting the campaign at 30 to 35 renown. One of my biggest gripes is that loads of the factions can't fit into 25 at all.

Indeed, locally we have gone with 36 which lets you make a legal in-faction warband with any hero in the book (and many out of it if you use the magic formula )

@ MongooseMatt

Whoops, so they aren't! I forgot that.

Was hoping for Age of Mordheim.

Why is it so difficult for GW to bring back that awesome game and update it for AoS? It really feels like they are tip toeing around the idea, and never quite jumping in.

MongooseMatt wrote:

Along with the Darkoath Chieftain (and Gaunt Summoner with Familiars). No priest though (and no Devoted of Sigmar, for that matter).

The familiars! my favorite guys out of silver tower. that is nice to see. But also Bah! the warpriest and his tiny adorable gryph hound are my second favorite things out of silver tower.

Well, house rule times.

I thought the priest would have been perfect for this sort of thing. I'm surprised by his absence.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Was hoping for Age of Mordheim.

Why is it so difficult for GW to bring back that awesome game and update it for AoS? It really feels like they are tip toeing around the idea, and never quite jumping in.

There really no need to bring it back and I hope they dont, the newer games they are bringing out, though not without their problems, is far superior for players, collectors and for GW.
Mordheim suffers from rose tinted glasses. It was great, but it had issues, for instance, skaven with slings would level up and become insane. It had low sale volumes- you could buy a gang and never buy anything else again (not good for GW or collectors)

Skirmish (and hopefully, a skirmish V2 if it becomes popular enough) fixes several issues. No Xp rules means that no one goon can level up and become a sling sniper, that hides at the back of the table and can kill a hero at the other end. The more 'openness' of the armies allows for far greater customisation and originality- mordheim had the choice of a handful of gangs and that was about it (I'm discounting all the fan made, fanatic published or 'count as' warbands as that adds to the problem of are they gw official or not) Skirmish has rules for almost every race currently in the game, and several that are still to receive AoS updates. It allows for heavy customisation or proxying of forces with rules- for instance chaos dwarves can be used as their is enough dwarven units in the game to sub them for.

Its small enough to allow you to try forces you might otherwise not get to- and you can make a warband from one box of standard troops, which keeps the cost right down. The size allows you to go a bit mad and make a warband from kits that would otherwise cost a fortune to do as an army (for instance, I have brought a dark elf dragon & cauldron of blood to make a warband especially for the crew models, couldnt afford to do that and make a full army)

Best off all- its easy to set your games in Mordheim with skirmish, but it still allows new players to join- with out the need to buy a rule book for a dead game with an inflated ebay price.
There is enough of the old mordheim gang stuff already in the rules to run most old gangs. The few things that are missing are easily proxied, or can be worked out at the /5 points calculation to include. And none of that 'but they blew it all up' nonsense. The realms are big enough to have many, many almost identical mordheim like cities to have popped up, hell Mordheim itself might still be out there. Its a fantasy game, dont let what GW say the fluff is from holding you back from making up your own.

I'm pretty bummed about the omission of some models, and the crazy small 'official' starting warband size. Obviously easily house rules, but it's wierd they are so small by default. I was expecting more like 5-8 models, other than in certain warbands like Stormcast/Ogres, and the like. More like Shadow War: Armageddon-sized, where you can customize a unit box of troops and there's your warband.

I personally just find it more enjoyable when skirmish bands are a low-level hero and his handful of mooks, rather than his two best friends, lol.

If the warbands start off this small, are the models made more resilient in any way?

Apparently no... Then again this kind of game will have more terrain and cover to block line of sight, A pillar will provide more defense here than if it was a regular game. It's not a smart idea to just rush in the open.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Was hoping for Age of Mordheim.

Why is it so difficult for GW to bring back that awesome game and update it for AoS? It really feels like they are tip toeing around the idea, and never quite jumping in.

Because GW would then be legally liable for all the deaths they would cause.
They couldn't have known that the WFB players would blow gaskets as bad as they did when AoS came out.
Putting sigmarines in Mordheim would cause aneurysms the world over from true believers.

 IronDerp wrote:
Apparently no... Then again this kind of game will have more terrain and cover to block line of sight, A pillar will provide more defense here than if it was a regular game. It's not a smart idea to just rush in the open.

I suppose that will work. I get the feeling that a warband with lots of ranged weaponry will do well. So I'm confident in my overlords.

We had a couple little test games/list build this week and will kick off a 6 week campaign starting next week. At the time, 3 of the 4 of us that had models were going to play death (I had Dark Elf Corsairs). First thing we did was bump up the starting Renown from 25 to 35, other wise Death can only start with 1 Necromancer and 2 Zombies. The 10 extra renown let them open up their starting list a bit more.

However, I was able to bring a Fleetmaster and 13 Corsairs. I had 14 models to their 4 to 9 models. If I had wanted to, I could of taken less Corsairs and taken a Chariot instead. I won and we never factored in post-game renown gains.

The issue is that there's only a few Hero models that you can take at 25 points that let you meet the requirements of a minimal of 3 models. If you increase the starting Renown you give that much more of an advantage to warbands that build on the cheap.

The only real advantage to list building is that you can mix-and-match your Allegiance as long as you can afford the models. Also you can use the Allegiance Abilities from the GH Grand Alliances.

Gameplay is fast, game lasted about 30ish minuets. I only wish there was a bit...more, especially after playing weeks of Shadow War Armageddon.

The community could build on to it. It just goes to show you just how much more money 40k makes though.

I posted a review on it on TGA:

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/9791-my-aos-skirmish-review

In short, nice idea but seems rushed and lacks execution. There's a lot of things that can easily be abused with little or no effort (my own extremely casual group already figured out a few ways) and battles can be incredibly lopsided without trying due to some abilities stacking multiple times since each model counts as an individual unit (anything with an Aura).

It's good for the price point and what it does, but I expected a little more.

Wayniac wrote:
I posted a review on it on TGA:

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/9791-my-aos-skirmish-review

In short, nice idea but seems rushed and lacks execution. There's a lot of things that can easily be abused with little or no effort (my own extremely casual group already figured out a few ways) and battles can be incredibly lopsided without trying due to some abilities stacking multiple times since each model counts as an individual unit (anything with an Aura).

It's good for the price point and what it does, but I expected a little more.

IT may get a bit of an update or a new "edition" later, GW is making a habit of doing a gakky job with AoS stuff initially and then making up for it later. We have been loving this a lot more than AoS regular at the moment so any better for us is just that much better, using the realm of battle boards as well as the terraclips for malifaux (buildings, streets, sewers, and dungeons) and having some damn good skirmishes. mostly SE vs BB.

It's working for the sort of game i want to play right now, but the flaws, as Wayniac and others have noted are pretty out there in the open.

I've played three games of it so far, and they do go very fast, which is a good thing for me, but man does the list really show just how much Death allegiance has been left behind. Ain't too many options at all.

I'm pretty excited for it since I'm a new player, and getting started is easy. Found someone to start the campaign at 25 renown, playing Saturday after preorders.

But I love the idea of a low cost, low time game to play other then 40k

Ya the "campaign" part of this seems really lackluster. However, locally we're excited for this for a Matched Play setting.

I love the idea of throwing down 50 Renown worth of models and duking it out.

 eekamouse wrote:
Ya the "campaign" part of this seems really lackluster. However, locally we're excited for this for a Matched Play setting.

I love the idea of throwing down 50 Renown worth of models and duking it out.

I think the game is best suited for 50 Renown games, 25 is far too limiting for many factions, such as Empire only being able to field a General and two state troopers.

I would have preferred if they made Lieutenant-rank models with a much reduced cost but they still counted as heroes.

Tempted to make the stats for some Lieutenants actually... when I finish work...

 Thymais wrote:

 eekamouse wrote:
Ya the "campaign" part of this seems really lackluster. However, locally we're excited for this for a Matched Play setting.

I love the idea of throwing down 50 Renown worth of models and duking it out.

I think the game is best suited for 50 Renown games, 25 is far too limiting for many factions, such as Empire only being able to field a General and two state troopers.

I would have preferred if they made Lieutenant-rank models with a much reduced cost but they still counted as heroes.

Tempted to make the stats for some Lieutenants actually... when I finish work...

Seems like with 25 points, you'll have more than your fair share of one turn games (or even half a turn). I understand you wouldn't want to start from 50 and then work your way up because you might have games going too long (for a skirmish game which is supposed to be a quick pick up and play).

Kicking around in my head is to do Skirmish mashed with Path of Glory. You start at 50 Renown, but use PoG reward tables for getting new abilities and what not. If you do roll on the "new unit" reward, you get that model. Or, possibly some hybrid of the two. You can spend Renown as normal, but still roll on the PoG reward tables. Not sure how balanced PoG reward would be for Skirmish though.

 eekamouse wrote:

 Thymais wrote:

 eekamouse wrote:
Ya the "campaign" part of this seems really lackluster. However, locally we're excited for this for a Matched Play setting.

I love the idea of throwing down 50 Renown worth of models and duking it out.

I think the game is best suited for 50 Renown games, 25 is far too limiting for many factions, such as Empire only being able to field a General and two state troopers.

I would have preferred if they made Lieutenant-rank models with a much reduced cost but they still counted as heroes.

Tempted to make the stats for some Lieutenants actually... when I finish work...

Seems like with 25 points, you'll have more than your fair share of one turn games (or even half a turn). I understand you wouldn't want to start from 50 and then work your way up because you might have games going too long (for a skirmish game which is supposed to be a quick pick up and play).

Kicking around in my head is to do Skirmish mashed with Path of Glory. You start at 50 Renown, but use PoG reward tables for getting new abilities and what not. If you do roll on the "new unit" reward, you get that model. Or, possibly some hybrid of the two. You can spend Renown as normal, but still roll on the PoG reward tables. Not sure how balanced PoG reward would be for Skirmish though.

Path of Glory? I may have to read up on this. It says its in the General's Handbook so I will get a copy of that after I finish today.

It definitely appears to be AoS version of Kill Team instead of their version of Shadow War. It looks like a good way to get people into AoS in general and were I to buy any models it would probably be to play Skirmish as a hobby project, so I suppose its a win in my book.

 LunarSol wrote:
It definitely appears to be AoS version of Kill Team instead of their version of Shadow War. It looks like a good way to get people into AoS in general and were I to buy any models it would probably be to play Skirmish as a hobby project, so I suppose its a win in my book.

This is honestly exactly what I was hoping for- a game where I could pop into a store, play a handful of games in just a few hours, and with little to no homework.

 joseph_curwen wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
It definitely appears to be AoS version of Kill Team instead of their version of Shadow War. It looks like a good way to get people into AoS in general and were I to buy any models it would probably be to play Skirmish as a hobby project, so I suppose its a win in my book.

This is honestly exactly what I was hoping for- a game where I could pop into a store, play a handful of games in just a few hours, and with little to no homework.

This is actually what will likely make me have a positive view of AoS.

I think that's gonna be the big drag for people to play AoS... It's quick, simple, and potentially fun.

I got a couple pick up games of skirmish in with a guy who was just in town for a week on business. I played Tzeentch stuff (no skyfires of course) and he played some Stormcast. We got through two scenarios at a very lazy pace with lots of chatting in just over 2 hours. We did a 35 followed by 48 vs 43 (I lost the first game).

One thing I like about this over kill team is that it's not about a single unit type. Kill Team is about a customized single squad which is like one warscroll where as in this you end up taking stuff from multiple warscrolls.

I just used my app and the skirmish book and the booklet that came in Storm of Sigmar. He had a GHB as well and had an item of some sort from there. The one that let him go first in combat on my turn.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I got a couple pick up games of skirmish in with a guy who was just in town for a week on business. I played Tzeentch stuff (no skyfires of course) and he played some Stormcast. We got through two scenarios at a very lazy pace with lots of chatting in just over 2 hours. We did a 35 followed by 48 vs 43 (I lost the first game).

One thing I like about this over kill team is that it's not about a single unit type. Kill Team is about a customized single squad which is like one warscroll where as in this you end up taking stuff from multiple warscrolls.

I just used my app and the skirmish book and the booklet that came in Storm of Sigmar. He had a GHB as well and had an item of some sort from there. The one that let him go first in combat on my turn.

sounds pretty darn interesting. How did you like going through the GHB for points? did you find it smooth or is it a bit clunky? I am considering using my Silver Tower dudes for a tzeentch force.

 thekingofkings wrote:
sounds pretty darn interesting. How did you like going through the GHB for points? did you find it smooth or is it a bit clunky? I am considering using my Silver Tower dudes for a tzeentch force.

I just went to scrollbuilder.com on my tablet and got the points and figured out points per model and then divided that by five. I think you round according to normal math rules which is like .5 or higher round up. That's what I read on the grand alliance forum anyway (I should really sign up there, it's a chill place). Also:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PuJFr9nZwz2K3CwU0u31AlMnuBL25B65IxUtkZJFNdE/edit#gid=925980163

It's not complete, but it's got lots of stuff.

Two thoughts.

I do think increasing the starting Renown limit for campaign games will commonly be house-ruled to 30. It was the first thing I thought of when I was reading it on release day.

It shouldn't be too hard to work in models they didn't provide renown values for; and frankly, AoS itself is a pretty game to house rule, so there is a great deal of expansion possibilities for the creative players.