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 Ketara wrote:
There was a webway gate on each craftworld, so I doubt any truly tremendous technological difference would have passed them by for an extended period of time. At the same time though, knowing about an advance doesn't equate to having the equipment to replicate it.

I like to think of it in 19th century terms. In the same way you'd have various merchants and other factions passing through a colony bringing new medicines, information, devices, and so forth, but the means of manufacture and research are located back at the heart of the Empire and the spread of those things gets slower the further off the beaten track you get.

If that's even remotely accurate, those craftworlds who were furthest away in webway travel terms would likely have been the most backward. I'm not sure what correlation that would have to realspace travel though.

Seems to make a lot of sense that. Hell, you get the same thing when comparing cities to the country here. Cities tend to be the first places that get new developments simply due to beign a better place to market your new developments, with places with close transport links being the next in line, and some places out in the boondocks that still don't have fibre broadband yet (yours truly).

Actually, to take the analogy further. If London was destroyed and a load of surviving BT engineers moved to Cowden, it doesn't mean that we'd now get fibre broadband. We might have a bloke who'd know how to install it, and a bloke who knew what plastic coating to put on the cables, but we wouldn't have any of the equipment to manufacture anything, or the whole gamut of expertise to make it work. Mr BT Man would have to till the fields like everyone else

I'm not sure it would be so bad as that, purely because Craftworlds are self-contained environments. There's a certain base level of self-sufficient economic activity and production which can be repurposed, as well as technological activity.

What would have been lost though, is the smartest minds of the species, the most intricate technologies and the dedicated plant which manufactured it. I've no doubt if the Craftworld Eldar collectively embarked on a solid R&D program, they could make headway into rediscovering what they previously knew.

But they won't. That would risk society becoming self-destructive again. Their past is under a taboo as restrictive as that of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and so they stick to what they already know and have. Haven't you noticed that you never hear about the 'Path of the Researcher'? Science and technology play no part in their society, no dominating imperative. You never read backstory of a bunch of Eldar scientists developing a new mark of shuriken cannon. They just replicate what they've always done. They're just as technologically and culturally stagnant as the Imperium.

The Dark Eldar, on the other hand, retain more of the toys of their old Empire. Because there were major cities in the Webway before the collapse, a good chunk of that original knowledge/infrastructure is still there, even if buried and forgotten. Their problem is that they have no cohesive society in general. A Haemonculus might figure out how to make and replicate an intensely powerful psychic weapon from five millennia ago, but he won't share it around. An individual Archon might have some of his men figure out ways to soup up his Raider's engines even more, but he won't give that information away. And so the Dark Eldar likely go through a patchwork cycle of losing and rediscovering their own technology depending on the course of events.

They manufacture the technology that is well known and widespread, and they have the means to do so far in excess of anything the Craftworlds could do. They have the resources and means to try and reclaim their old glory. But they lack the societal cohesion necessary to actually do it.

 Ketara wrote:
I'm not sure it would be so bad as that, purely because Craftworlds are self-contained environments. There's a certain base level of self-sufficient economic activity and production which can be repurposed, as well as technological activity.

What would have been lost though, is the smartest minds of the species, the most intricate technologies and the dedicated plant which manufactured it. I've no doubt if the Craftworld Eldar collectively embarked on a solid R&D program, they could make headway into rediscovering what they previously knew.

But they won't. That would risk society becoming self-destructive again. Their past is under a taboo as restrictive as that of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and so they stick to what they already know and have. Haven't you noticed that you never hear about the 'Path of the Researcher'? Science and technology play no part in their society, no dominating imperative. You never read backstory of a bunch of Eldar scientists developing a new mark of shuriken cannon. They just replicate what they've always done. They're just as technologically and culturally stagnant as the Imperium.

The Dark Eldar, on the other hand, retain more of the toys of their old Empire. Because there were major cities in the Webway before the collapse, a good chunk of that original knowledge/infrastructure is still there, even if buried and forgotten. Their problem is that they have no cohesive society in general. A Haemonculus might figure out how to make and replicate an intensely powerful psychic weapon from five millennia ago, but he won't share it around. An individual Archon might have some of his men figure out ways to soup up his Raider's engines even more, but he won't give that information away. And so the Dark Eldar likely go through a patchwork cycle of losing and rediscovering their own technology depending on the course of events.

They manufacture the technology that is well known and widespread, and they have the means to do so far in excess of anything the Craftworlds could do. They have the resources and means to try and reclaim their old glory. But they lack the societal cohesion necessary to actually do it.

This man gets it.

Or...nobody cares about the researchers, Which is why you also have no books about the Tau scientist working on improving workplace efficiency regarding drone power supplies.

pm713 wrote:
Or...nobody cares about the researchers, Which is why you also have no books about the Tau scientist working on improving workplace efficiency regarding drone power supplies.

If they made it like a Cold War secret-police thriller I'd read about it Tau Earth Caste dude finds out something about the Ethereals he's not meant to know, and tries to escape to the Enclaves. Pretty sweet premise

There was the time the Deathwatch killed a bunch of Eldar and set all of their soul stones in a stormshield. Then wondered why Eldar keep trying to kill the guy using said storm shield.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Or...nobody cares about the researchers, Which is why you also have no books about the Tau scientist working on improving workplace efficiency regarding drone power supplies.

If they made it like a Cold War secret-police thriller I'd read about it Tau Earth Caste dude finds out something about the Ethereals he's not meant to know, and tries to escape to the Enclaves. Pretty sweet premise

That actually sounds pretty good.

Haha thanks I've been thinking recently about ways to up the grimdark for traditionally less grimdark factions (Eldar mainly, but also Tau).

One of the ways to do that is really playing on the Cold War propaganda state idea for the Tau, and work in some fascist ideas for their treatment of their 'helper' races.

I've got some ideas in the works to do a warband of KGB-style Tau secret police, with some human 'liaison officers' with armbands with little red stars on them.

Must get the bits for that thinking about it

Imperium: Either it gets confiscated by the Ordo Xenos, or it gets black marketed to nobles.

Xenos, excluding eldar: Will probably leave it where they found it, they won't understand the significance.

Eldars: ALL MINE.

Chaos: Sacrifice it to Slaanesh/ sell it to Slaaneshi worshippers.

pm713 wrote:
Or...nobody cares about the researchers, Which is why you also have no books about the Tau scientist working on improving workplace efficiency regarding drone power supplies.

Rubbish. We very frequently hear about the Tau's latest R&D program, half the weapons their commanders tote are very explicitly labelled 'prototypes'. Even the Mechanicus occasionally wheels out a new piece of gear or picks up a new STC fragment to put into production. Yet for the Eldar? Whenever a new piece of kit emerges, it's either retconned into the story, a desperate adaptation of some existing kit, or a weapon from the past resurrected. Never anything new.

The Craftworld Eldar are one of the most technologically stagnant races in the 40K world. They sit amidst the ruins of their people and condescend to other races whilst claiming the achievements of their long-distant ancestors as their own. The Craftworld Eldar are no longer technologically advanced as a culture, they're merely parasites utilising the remains of those who came before them.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Or...nobody cares about the researchers, Which is why you also have no books about the Tau scientist working on improving workplace efficiency regarding drone power supplies.

Rubbish. We very frequently hear about the Tau's latest R&D program, half the weapons their commanders tote are very explicitly labelled 'prototypes'. Even the Mechanicus occasionally wheels out a new piece of gear or picks up a new STC fragment to put into production. Yet for the Eldar? Whenever a new piece of kit emerges, it's either retconned into the story, a desperate adaptation of some existing kit, or a weapon from the past resurrected. Never anything new.

The Craftworld Eldar are one of the most technologically stagnant races in the 40K world. They sit amidst the ruins of their people and condescend to other races whilst claiming the achievements of their long-distant ancestors as their own. The Craftworld Eldar are no longer technologically advanced as a culture, they're merely parasites utilising the remains of those who came before them.

Tell me the name of a book about Tau researchers.

That's all well and good but there are least three examples of things that appeared in Eldar Craftworld armies post Fall.

We've even had Tau weapons go from experimental to standard use.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Or...nobody cares about the researchers, Which is why you also have no books about the Tau scientist working on improving workplace efficiency regarding drone power supplies.

Rubbish. We very frequently hear about the Tau's latest R&D program, half the weapons their commanders tote are very explicitly labelled 'prototypes'. Even the Mechanicus occasionally wheels out a new piece of gear or picks up a new STC fragment to put into production. Yet for the Eldar? Whenever a new piece of kit emerges, it's either retconned into the story, a desperate adaptation of some existing kit, or a weapon from the past resurrected. Never anything new.

The Craftworld Eldar are one of the most technologically stagnant races in the 40K world. They sit amidst the ruins of their people and condescend to other races whilst claiming the achievements of their long-distant ancestors as their own. The Craftworld Eldar are no longer technologically advanced as a culture, they're merely parasites utilising the remains of those who came before them.

That depiction of the Eldar is absolutely spot on.

I like to think that the warp gods of a race are integral to their collective racial consciousness. They both embody amd represent key traits of their mindset.

For the Eldar, most of their gods are dead, which has some interesting implications if the above is true.

Vaul, their smith god and principle architect of technology, is dead. Because of the way the warp messes with causality, this both is caused by and caused the Eldar's technological stagnation.

All that is left for the Eldar is war and trickery (Khaine and Cegorach). It probably doesn't bode well that they've just birthed a God of Death to be honest...

If you want an explanation for the Dark Eldar being technologically progressive (pretty nuch all their tech is developed post-fall), you could look to the fact that Slaanesh is an Eldar God, and pretty much embodies the DEldar way of life (much though they kid themselves that it doesn't). I wonder if the Dark Eldar develop their technology because it feels good, rather than for a utilitarian purpose...

It's also interesting to look at the human warp deities as a window into their minds. War, Plague, Scheming and a bit of Devauchery thrown in for good measure. As Big E is pretty much a warp deity now, you cana throw in his Xenophobia and belief that Mankind is the rightful owner of the galaxy for good measure

pm713 wrote:
Tell me the name of a book about Tau researchers.

That's all well and good but there are least three examples of things that appeared in Eldar Craftworld armies post Fall.

#

Literally every single Tau codex emphasises their R&D programmes? When I say 'You never hear about the Path of the Researcher', I'm not saying that every single other race has entire books dedicated to nothing but logistics, that would be idiotic. What I am saying is that the Imperium and Tau have dedicated experimental programs going on committed to making new scientific discoveries and then translating those in engineering terms in usable items. Hell, even Chaos and the Dark Eldar have Warpsmiths and Haemonculi and their ilk conducting research even if they don't share it a huge amount.

The Eldar though? I cannot, for the life of me, ever recall hearing about a Craftworld Eldar researcher/scientist, let alone a dedicated R&D program. You don't even read about new weapons that I'm aware of, that would permit you to infer that such people are beavering away behind the scenes. Soul stones were an odd discovery, wraithbone and its constructs predate the Fall, as does aspect armour, shuriken weaponry, and so on. I suppose the Avatar technically postdates the Fall, but that's hardly something you could term a 'technological advance'.

If you have half a dozen examples of new prototype weaponry and tanks or general technology dating post-the fall that don't fall into the category 'Hasty battlefield/campaign modification', please specify them. I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong if I am. I have nothing that springs to mind though.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Tell me the name of a book about Tau researchers.

That's all well and good but there are least three examples of things that appeared in Eldar Craftworld armies post Fall.

#

Literally every single Tau codex emphasises their R&D programmes? When I say 'You never hear about the Path of the Researcher', I'm not saying that every single other race has entire books dedicated to nothing but logistics, that would be idiotic. What I am saying is that the Imperium and Tau have dedicated experimental programs going on committed to making new scientific discoveries and then translating those in engineering terms in usable items. Hell, even Chaos and the Dark Eldar have Warpsmiths and Haemonculi and their ilk conducting research even if they don't share it a huge amount.

The Eldar though? I cannot, for the life of me, ever recall hearing about a Craftworld Eldar researcher/scientist, let alone a dedicated R&D program. You don't even read about new weapons that I'm aware of, that would permit you to infer that such people are beavering away behind the scenes. Soul stones were an odd discovery, wraithbone and its constructs predate the Fall, as does aspect armour, shuriken weaponry, and so on. I suppose the Avatar technically postdates the Fall, but that's hardly something you could term a 'technological advance'.

If you have half a dozen examples of new prototype weaponry and tanks or general technology dating post-the fall that don't fall into the category 'Hasty battlefield/campaign modification', please specify them. I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong if I am. I have nothing that springs to mind though.

Vyper, anything using a soul stone as control like a Wraithknight and the actual Craftworlds were made post Fall unless you want to be really picky about it in which case you don't count Craftworlds themselves.

There's no species wide research because they don't have that kind of unity but that doesn't mean individual Craftworlds aren't working on their own projects.

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Tell me the name of a book about Tau researchers.

That's all well and good but there are least three examples of things that appeared in Eldar Craftworld armies post Fall.

#

Literally every single Tau codex emphasises their R&D programmes? When I say 'You never hear about the Path of the Researcher', I'm not saying that every single other race has entire books dedicated to nothing but logistics, that would be idiotic. What I am saying is that the Imperium and Tau have dedicated experimental programs going on committed to making new scientific discoveries and then translating those in engineering terms in usable items. Hell, even Chaos and the Dark Eldar have Warpsmiths and Haemonculi and their ilk conducting research even if they don't share it a huge amount.

The Eldar though? I cannot, for the life of me, ever recall hearing about a Craftworld Eldar researcher/scientist, let alone a dedicated R&D program. You don't even read about new weapons that I'm aware of, that would permit you to infer that such people are beavering away behind the scenes. Soul stones were an odd discovery, wraithbone and its constructs predate the Fall, as does aspect armour, shuriken weaponry, and so on. I suppose the Avatar technically postdates the Fall, but that's hardly something you could term a 'technological advance'.

If you have half a dozen examples of new prototype weaponry and tanks or general technology dating post-the fall that don't fall into the category 'Hasty battlefield/campaign modification', please specify them. I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong if I am. I have nothing that springs to mind though.

There is no new research for Eldar since they pretty much had all possible weaponry developed and refined in their most common weapons. The only true new weapons developed in late dates are pretty much the Hemlock and the D-scythes (theorically developed as a counter to Tyranids) and even then it's just a modification on existing weapons, just a different kind of *firing pattern* for D-weapons.

Of course you can bring the case some of their weapons are lackluster in some areas (Shuriken catapults fantastic range for example) but that's mostly due the way GW has chosen to develop them into game terms than just according to the real lore behind.

pm713 wrote:
vyper

I'm not saying you're wrong on this one, but I need a bit more info before conceding it. It says on Lexicanum 'First created by artisans of the Saim-Hann Craftworld', but the craftworld itself existed before the Fall. Do you have any more sources/details on that one?

I find the use of the term 'artisan' very interesting regardless, an artisan being being a skilled craftsman with an artistic bent. It's very much a medieval term. In the case of the Vyper, it could literally have been a pre-fall mechanic and his team who screwed around with his personal hovercraft in such a way to win races, and the template was just picked up five thousand years later. Alternatively, it could be the design of a group of people systematically looking at ways to modify the jetbike (which it's quoted on Lexicanum as being derived from).

Saim-Hann is, of course, the one Craftworld that adheres to 'paths' the least of all the Craftworld's, so even if it is post-fall, one could theorise that's why they're more open to such innovations.

Hard to say without more info. Anyone got anything?

anything using a soul stone as control like a Wraithknight and the actual Craftworlds were made post Fall unless you want to be really picky about it in which case you don't count Craftworlds themselves.

Soul stones are post fall, but the technology of having soul-infused wraithbone isn't. It isn't so much a new technology as a re-application of an old one. A bit like if I built a chainsword right now. Chainsaws and swords are both contemporary concepts and technologies, it's just a synthesis of what already exists in a slightly different format. Not really a 'technological advance', per se.

Craftworlds, meanwhile, pre-date the Fall, they were trading vessels. They weren't built afterwards.

What was the other one? (you mentioned three)

 Ketara wrote:

pm713 wrote:
vyper

I'm not saying you're wrong on this one, but I need a bit more info before conceding it. It says on Lexicanum 'First created by artisans of the Saim-Hann Craftworld', but the craftworld itself existed before the Fall. Do you have any more sources/details on that one?

I find the use of the term 'artisan' very interesting regardless, an artisan being being a skilled craftsman with an artistic bent. It's very much a medieval term. In the case of the Vyper, it could literally have been a pre-fall mechanic and his team who screwed around with his personal hovercraft in such a way to win races, and the template was just picked up five thousand years later. Alternatively, it could be the design of a group of people systematically looking at ways to modify the jetbike (which it's quoted on Lexicanum as being derived from).

Saim-Hann is, of course, the one Craftworld that adheres to 'paths' the least of all the Craftworld's, so even if it is post-fall, one could theorise that's why they're more open to such innovations.

Hard to say without more info. Anyone got anything?

anything using a soul stone as control like a Wraithknight and the actual Craftworlds were made post Fall unless you want to be really picky about it in which case you don't count Craftworlds themselves.

Soul stones are post fall, but the technology of having soul-infused wraithbone isn't. It isn't so much a new technology as a re-application of an old one. A bit like if I built a chainsword right now. Chainsaws and swords are both contemporary concepts and technologies, it's just a synthesis of what already exists in a slightly different format. Not really a 'technological advance', per se.

Craftworlds, meanwhile, pre-date the Fall, they were trading vessels. They weren't built afterwards.

What was the other one? (you mentioned three)

Trade vessels yes at first but they have grown orders of magnitude larger than first when they set out into the stars.
They also have a fairly substantial armament of weaponry to defend selves. Granted likely a post fall addition but they pack a potent defense system.

 jhe90 wrote:

Trade vessels yes at first but they have grown orders of magnitude larger than first when they set out into the stars.

Accurate, but not contradictory. The fact they've been expanded post-fall doesn't mean they post-date it, anymore than the city of London's founding is reset every time they throw up a new building. The core of all Craftworlds, the Infinity Circuit, is the skeleton, it's been there since the start. The Eldar just kept building on top of what was already there as their populations expanded and they needed the room. It's not as if there's a limit to how big a spaceship can get.

Although i agree with your point that the Eldar are technologically stagnant, it bugs me that the Imperium aren't anymore. That was one of the foundations of the fluff of the 40k universe which has been sold out to shift shiny new plastic kits.

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science (except Numarines, and the Taurox, and the bajillion types of Dreadnought ther is now, and the similar number of Terminator suits, and the fat-suit Centurions, amd the new marks of Power Armour they trot out every now and again), for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned (except for the above). Forget the promise of progress and understanding (except for the above), for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

Don't get me wrong, i would never complain about new kits. I do however take umbrage to the suggestion that the Imperium is in any way technologically progressive. Experimentation is a radical thing for a Magos to do. Remember, everything Mankind will ever know has already been discovered. Why experiment yourself when you can set out to rediscover the lost knowledge of mankind?

An interesting sliver from a book I'm reading:-

The haemonculi were in Commorragh even before The Fall. You might say that the city gave birth to them and that in their own way the haemonculi contributed to the destruction of the eldar race, too, but there are altogether too many culprits for that crime. Just prior to The Fall the eldar had become a divided people. They were divided because the realisation had come upon them that their power was effectively limitless. Their culture and technology had reached such a pitch that they were like unto gods. They could create or destroy simply through the application of their will. The realisation of that power brought about a great schism because some embraced it whilst others were repelled by it.

A large part of the schism from before The Fall was centred around the concept of Form. The conservatives saw their form as being something inviolable, the pinnacle achievement of evolutionary forces reaching back to the birth of the universe itself. The radicals believed that the form a soul took was not predetermined but a matter of cosmic accident. They saw no harm in changing their form as they willed once they had access to the technology for doing so. The most extreme transmigrated themselves into animals, ships, structures or even entire sub-realms.

Far more people took to physical modification of a more limited sort. Improved genes, faster reflexes, enhanced senses, regenerative cells, all that kind of thing – on and on ‘improving’ the evolutionary process. This is where what we now call haemonculi come in to play. They started as a sort of loose society of surgeons and scientists who arose to pioneer the most extreme kind of work. For a variety of reasons – most of them ethical and legal – many of them chose to make their homes in the port-city of Commorragh and other sub-realms in the webway.

Those who would become the first haemonculi performed some truly radical experiments of their own over time. They created artificial races and adapted existing ones to their purposes. The most stable proved to be the scourges, a transformation that could be undertaken by anyone with the urge to soar on their own wings. It’s entirely possible that some even less savoury creations were brought into being at the same time – like the mandrakes, for example, and a variety of deranged creatures that are now purely the preserve of the beastmasters.

Body-sculpting, alteration, eugenics; these proto-haemonculi raced to outdo one another in their pursuit of entirely amoral science even as the rest of the eldar race slid into anarchy.

After The Fall the surviving not-quite-yet-haemonculi realised that they stood on a metaphorical knife-edge. With their abilities they could cheat death, age, pain and disease for all intents and purposes. They could have ruled Commorragh and the other sub-realms purely through the promise of granting immortality to those loyal to them. However, the soon-to-be haemonculi were wise enough to understand that they had neither the desire nor the skills to lead the unwashed masses. They were only concerned with pursuing their craft further, but they also knew that if they tried to do so as individuals they would be enslaved and forced to labour for others.

So the haemonculi covens formed. Like-minded individuals banded together to organise the distribution of their effort. Pacts were formed between the covens and the ruling authorities – the noble houses originally and then later the kabals when Vect took power.

The Eldar have to some extent all been about iterative approaches to their technology. Look at all their laser weapons from Spears to Falcons to all the way up to Titan pulsars and see how they all share the same contoured barrels. See the same for all the monofilament weapons from Deathspinners to Shadow Weaver to Nightspinners. Wraithguard and Wraithlord share similar shapes. One could argue that the Eldar are not very imaginative in terms of radically new or departures from existing lines of technological development. Their weapons are often iterations and refinements of the same. One could argue that background wise this is the result of their obsessive mindset and culture with its focus on perfection and taking things to extremes. At some point in the past, it seems the Eldar decided certain ways were the proper way to do things and everything else afterwards has been refinement of that.

Also, in the respective Codices for the Craftworld Vyper, Dark Eldar Venom, Harlequin Starweaver, they are said to all be adaptations or descended from the ancient Eldar sky-chariots. They are really all different variations of the Eldar post-acolayptic equivalent of a pickup truck with a machine gun in the back. Is adapting a civilian vehicle to warfare "new technology"?

Neat, thanks for sharing

I have some minor qualms about calling the eldar form 'evolutionary' since they are a manufactured race, that being the root of much of their arrogance 'they were created perfect by their gods, rather than stumbling upon their form by unfocussed accident'.

However, if we take it as just a turn of phrase, it actually jibes quite nicely as a deeper schism. The haemonculi thought themselves better than their Gods. Not just better than some ineffable probably-not-real gods, but gods they know for an absolute fact existed and created them.

That's a hell of a schism that would cause.

Neat bit of fluff!

It's from the last DE book, Path of the Archon. It's a recollection from some old eldar crone who was psychic and (I believe) alive since the Fall.

The Haemonculi are described as being organised in these covens, and we see them co-operating with other members of their coven and following orders. So actually, I retract my earlier statement about them being isolated/reactionary researchers. They inculcate and train new aspirants (who start off as Wracks), and are gradually given access to new technology and information belonging to their coven as they progress.

It's not quite a deliberate R&D program, far from it. It's akin to the old fashioned Trade Guilds of Europe. They plot and scheme against each other, hoard knowledge internally, and try to stifle any potential rivals before they gain in size. But there is still the capacity for the results of individual theory and research to be disseminated amongst their peers/the new generations of the same coven, and basic technology transfer to take place. That's a step above the isolated Warpsmiths of Chaos.

Their only restriction appears to be that they're limited to flesh-crafting and soul-weaving. That's their specialty, and that's likely why the skills involved have survived, or even thrived whilst more mundane technologies involving armour, ships and guns have remained static.One can only speculate that the manufactories producing those items must be controlled by the individual Archons, and thus, isolated and restricted to simple template copying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
The Eldar have to some extent all been about iterative approaches to their technology. Look at all their laser weapons from Spears to Falcons to all the way up to Titan pulsars and see how they all share the same contoured barrels. See the same for all the monofilament weapons from Deathspinners to Shadow Weaver to Nightspinners. Wraithguard and Wraithlord share similar shapes. One could argue that the Eldar are not very imaginative in terms of radically new or departures from existing lines of technological development. Their weapons are often iterations and refinements of the same. One could argue that background wise this is the result of their obsessive mindset and culture with its focus on perfection and taking things to extremes. At some point in the past, it seems the Eldar decided certain ways were the proper way to do things and everything else afterwards has been refinement of that.

Also, in the respective Codices for the Craftworld Vyper, Dark Eldar Venom, Harlequin Starweaver, they are said to all be adaptations or descended from the ancient Eldar sky-chariots. They are really all different variations of the Eldar post-acolayptic equivalent of a pickup truck with a machine gun in the back. Is adapting a civilian vehicle to warfare "new technology"?

See, I think the second segment offers a different conclusion to the first. As we were discussing earlier, the plant, research, and people responsible for the more advanced technologies would have been at the heart of the Fall and swallowed up. It is much easier, from a logistical point of view, to produce an item that is similar to another item. Why? Because it utilises the same skill and manufacturing plant.

I would hypothesize the reason that most Eldar technologies look and function the same way is because those technologies were the ones left to the Craftworlds that they had the capability to replicate on a large scale. When resources and physical space for these things is limited (Craftworlds only expanded in size so fast), there's a certain pressure to retain an interchangeability of components and manufacturing expertise. If your shuriken rifle stayed the same, but your shuriken cannon was actually a splinter cannon, you'd need two completely different sets of components and skills in your workforce.

I would further speculate that as all Craftworlds fell back on the same technologies (we don't see Iyanden throwing around different guns to Biel-Tan), it was a logical extension of plant, skills, and material that all Craftworlds had to hand. We know that wraithbone is the core of all Craftworlds, a psycho-plastic. It is interesting to note that most of their armour and weaponry are made of derivatives of that material also.


In other words (tl;dr) it makes sense that the reason Craftworlds all use the same gear is because that was the most advanced weapons technology that they could produce using the plant and resources available to them post-fall.

The implications of this are quite profound. Ten thousand years and barely a fraction of experimentation tells us it's not just a cultural opposition to it, or a loss of all knowledge involved, but a question of material also. They produce their weapons using the only material and plant which they have widely available. As they don't settle new worlds or set out to extract resources or commit piracy on a large scale (DE style) there simply isn't the capability to start messing around with other technologies. They don't have large enough stockpiles of raw materials or expertise/plant for putting the results of any research on a mass production line.

The Haemonculus Covens supplement goes into more detail about the Covens. They are more mad scientists than a true R&D research program. They see themselves as artists and the Path books show them to have ranks much like a secret society. None of this is conducive to flow of information even internally.

They are not all purely to flesh and soul manipulation. The Covens supplement mentions how some style themselves Dark Artisans and specialize in the creation of Pain Engines. Though arguably that too is a form of flesh crafting, there is a significant non-organic component to it. Ultimately the Covens may lean towards the flesh and soul because they like all Dark Eldar are reliant upon the living to feed off of. In the process of doing their work on living captives, they get a feast of suffering too. For the most ancient, it is critical that they do so due to the soul drain being so great. Again in the Covens supplement, it mentions how some in the Everspiral coven are so ancient that they must rely on the constant flow of energy from a Cronos to avoid withering away to dust.

Destroy that filthy tripe on discovery so it can't be made into Wraith Constructs!
Jewelery!? Are you people mad? That's a filthy xenos Weapon, I should cut your head off before I remove it. That's heresy you're wearing! You hear me? HERESY!!!

 Ketara wrote:

See, I think the second segment offers a different conclusion to the first. As we were discussing earlier, the plant, research, and people responsible for the more advanced technologies would have been at the heart of the Fall and swallowed up. It is much easier, from a logistical point of view, to produce an item that is similar to another item. Why? Because it utilises the same skill and manufacturing plant.

I would hypothesize the reason that most Eldar technologies look and function the same way is because those technologies were the ones left to the Craftworlds that they had the capability to replicate on a large scale. When resources and physical space for these things is limited (Craftworlds only expanded in size so fast), there's a certain pressure to retain an interchangeability of components and manufacturing expertise. If your shuriken rifle stayed the same, but your shuriken cannon was actually a splinter cannon, you'd need two completely different sets of components and skills in your workforce.

I would further speculate that as all Craftworlds fell back on the same technologies (we don't see Iyanden throwing around different guns to Biel-Tan), it was a logical extension of plant, skills, and material that all Craftworlds had to hand. We know that wraithbone is the core of all Craftworlds, a psycho-plastic. It is interesting to note that most of their armour and weaponry are made of derivatives of that material also.


In other words (tl;dr) it makes sense that the reason Craftworlds all use the same gear is because that was the most advanced weapons technology that they could produce using the plant and resources available to them post-fall.

The implications of this are quite profound. Ten thousand years and barely a fraction of experimentation tells us it's not just a cultural opposition to it, or a loss of all knowledge involved, but a question of material also. They produce their weapons using the only material and plant which they have widely available. As they don't settle new worlds or set out to extract resources or commit piracy on a large scale (DE style) there simply isn't the capability to start messing around with other technologies. They don't have large enough stockpiles of raw materials or expertise/plant for putting the results of any research on a mass production line.

I do not think you can instantly jump to conclude it is not cultural. The Eldar are a race that tends towards obsessionality. Even in the Hamonculus Covens supplement, it mentions how the Hamonculi focus on disciplines in order to focus their attention, in a manner "not dissimilar to the Eldar Path", even though they deny that they are being similar to the Craftworlds. The Dark Eldar too are similar in this iterative process for much of their weaponry despite supposedly raiding the galaxy extensively and having vast weapon factories stocked with slave labor.

In the Craftworld Path novels, one of the critiques raised against Korlandril's sculpture by his soon to be Outcast friend was that it was stale and touched on the same old topics and themes, despite being technically well crafted. That critique shows Craftworld society to be stagnant and re-iterating the same things albeit with great skill. I see that theme being carried over to Craftworld Eldar weaponry.

Iracundus wrote:

I do not think you can instantly jump to conclude it is not cultural.

Oh, I'm not. Please don't misunderstand, I think there's a strong aspect of cultural stagnation and 'not messing with past technologies in case we recreate the Fall'. I was just establishing that the reason their mass-produced technology takes the form it does and hasn't incorporated a more varied type of weaponry is likely down to the material factor just as much the cultural. Even if they wanted to start an R&D program, they don't have the resources they need to mass-produce anything developed as a result. Hence their focus on a few specific technologies for which the plant and skills manufacture to exist within the Craftworlds themselves.

Yet that same argument does not hold for the Dark Eldar who do have access to a whole galaxy through their raiding and who do have weapon factories with hordes of slaves laboring away for them.

Nor does it really hold with the Craftworlds when it comes to wraithbone. Though there are other psychoplastics, and these may have a material component, wraithbone is shown in the Path novels to be pure solidified warp energy. The only limitation on the manufacture of wraithbone is the available working time of Bonesingers. The Craftworlds are also not completely isolated and do engage in trade with other Craftworlds and with the Exodites, and there is a Path of the Merchant (all from the Path novels).

Iracundus wrote:
Yet that same argument does not hold for the Dark Eldar who do have access to a whole galaxy through their raiding and who do have weapon factories with hordes of slaves laboring away for them.

That would be why I wasn't talking about the Dark Eldar when I said that? Or indeed, the Orks or Tyranids, or any other race? I specified two posts back that I wasn't ruling out the cultural component, and you tried to say I was, now you're talking about DE. I'll be honest mate, I'm starting to get the feeling you're trying to pick an argument over something?

Nor does it really hold with the Craftworlds when it comes to wraithbone. Though there are other psychoplastics, and these may have a material component, wraithbone is shown in the Path novels to be pure solidified warp energy. The only limitation on the manufacture of wraithbone is the available working time of Bonesingers. The Craftworlds are also not completely isolated and do engage in trade with other Craftworlds and with the Exodites, and there is a Path of the Merchant (all from the Path novels).

None of which materially affects my point in the slightest....? The point here is that psychoplastics are, generally speaking, the one resource they seem to have in abundance, which is likely a very material factor (if not the only one) in why most of their munitions are crafted from it. If it's spun out of pure warp energy, then it's effectively a limitless resource, which would explain why they rely on it so much (given Craftworlds aren't exactly teeming with natural resources).

Ultimately, you can engage in trade all you like, but when it comes arming literally billions of troops, you need a reliable supply of raw materials. If we look at the Tau and Imperium as alternate examples, they utilise many different mineral resources in their weaponry. In order to establish the reliable supply lines they'd need to switch to utilising munitions based upon those sorts of resources, the Eldar would effectively be forced into having to colonise planets/asteroids and maintaining fixed positions there. That's something we've never seen the Craftworld Eldar do, indeed, that's why they're 'Craftworld Eldar'. They maintain an eye on places like the Maiden Worlds, but we never see them strip mining a planet or setting up vast promethium refining apparatus.

Whereas so long as they maintain a complete reliance on psychoplastics, their supply lines are non-existent, they can make everything at home. But that is, in and of itself, a restriction upon technological advance. It means that they can only utilise (in a regular daily capacity at home or on the battlefield) items made from that material. They can't explore on a large scale to see what else they can build out of different materials, or build in extensive modifications built from them.

It's a bit like if I told you the only material you could use to kit out a million troops was iron. Iron's great stuff, but there's ultimately only so many ways and shapes you can forge it.

The Dark Eldar, on the other hand, don't operate entirely under that restriction. They pilfer what they want. At the same time though, they're completely dependent upon what they can steal, which is in turn limited by what worlds they can access through the webway which aren't heavily defended. Accordingly, there seems to be a far greater variety of interesting DE devices and weapons, but they tend to be more limited, as far as I can ascertain, to special equipment. If a Lord needs a Shadow Field, it can be built, but not every single troop is carrying one (which I've no doubt they would if they could).

There is a greater access to outside resources, but that also builds in a certain level of dependency. The DE have to keep raiding, because there are no raw materials in the Webway. If they want to build a splinter cannon, they have to acquire the component raw materials from outside the webway. As there's no centralised logistical network, and every Kabal works for itself, that in and of itself precludes any great deviation from established templates. When raiding, they seize what they know they can use, what they know they require. They aren't skipping around picking flowers and digging up earth unless there's a specific reason for needing them back home, you know? it's impossible to break down the composition of a flower and find an interesting new chemical, when your sole experience with that one plant on that one planet is that you stepped on it when on your way to seize a shipment of refined metal.

That's just one example, but it should highlight the restrictions a scarcity of resource can compel upon individual research. If there was a centralised government committing a focused R&D program in specific directions, it would be different. But there isn't. So their disunity is further exacerbated by their location, which impedes any research on a large scale even further still.