Space Wolves/Salamanders primaris successor chapters

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**pm713**

Books wrote:
I mean, not really but wulfen are pretty bad as far as imperium standards.

Yet the Emperor made them.

**Mr Morden**

pm713 wrote:
When exactly do SW use Chaos...

Several Chaos / Deamon melee weapons and of course (the awful) McMurder the Dreadnoguht seems ot be more Khorne than anything else

**mrhappyface**

pm713 wrote:
When exactly do SW use Chaos...

Whenever writers want to give chaos players the middle finger?

**pm713**

Mr Morden wrote:
pm713 wrote:
When exactly do SW use Chaos...

Several Chaos / Deamon melee weapons and of course (the awful) McMurder the Dreadnoguht seems ot be more Khorne than anything else

I think of one PURIFIED weapon and Murderfang is in no way Chaos. Grey Knights are much closer to being Chaos than any other Marines. (Not counting Traitors obviously)

**MechaEmperor7000**

If you're talking about the Axe Morkai, it's more like Grimnar had his priests spank it with a hammer until the daemon inside it decided to play nice.

Also Murderface is more of a rip off of Moriar the Chosen (anyone remember him?) than a chaos champion.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you're talking about the Axe Morkai, it's more like Grimnar had his priests spank it with a hammer until the daemon inside it decided to play nice.

Didnt the Daemon wake up during the attack on Fenris?

**mrhappyface**

VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you're talking about the Axe Morkai, it's more like Grimnar had his priests spank it with a hammer until the daemon inside it decided to play nice.

Didnt the Daemon wake up during the attack on Fenris?

If your talking about the second attack on Fenris,

Spoiler:

**MechaEmperor7000**

I've only read that it did so Khorne could give Magnus the middle finger for being a Tzeentchian pawn.

**SilverAlien**

As I understood it, the axe was apparently forged by khorne but not a demon weapon? Which I assume is indeed heretical, given tau made tech is verboten, but isn't quite as dangerous as an actual demon weapon.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It use to be a daemon weapon in older editions of the fluff if I remember.

**Books**

My understanding is the axe was forged by Khorn and is a daemon weapon, thus why it was able to wound Magnus.

**Carlson793**

SilverAlien wrote:
insaniak wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Didn't know that about salamanders, I had thought they were the other no successor chapter.

They had no 2nd Founding successors, as their numbers were too depleted at that time. I don't think there's ever been anything said about them not having successors later on.

Which is still weird to me given that the raven guard (and iron hands of we wanna talk istavaan in general) managed to have three confirmed 2nd founding chapters each at least.

I know the salamanders got messed up, but it never made sense for them to be that depleted.

End of the Heresy Era, Ultramarines were about 200,000+ strong. Salamanders, on the other hand, were at about 800 strong. Throughout the Crusade and Heresy, XVIIIth Legion were always at the forefront of the 'toughest' missions, so by the time of Isstvan, they were one of if not the smallest Legion. Isstvan took them from about ~89,000 to 1,000-2,000. Further Heresy Era actions dropped that even further. Between Mechanicus tithes and action post-Heresy, it's only been in recent years (900+.M41) that they've been able to start growing past their post-Heresy strength.

**Books**

So this quote is apparently from Champions of Fenris A Codex: Space Wolves Supplement according to some quick internetting I have done. Does leave plenty of gray area since it is reforged, but it is(or at one point was) a weapon of chaos clearly.

Logan Grimnar's chosen weapon is a trophy of war, prised from the cold dead hands of a powerful champion of the Dark Gods. It was upon the battlefields of Armageddon that the Great Wolf won his fabled axe, amid the blood and fire of the battle on the banks of the River Chaeron. After hours of bitter fighting, the river ran red with blood and the bodies of Cultists and traitor Guardsmen were piled high. World Eaters Chaos Space Marines attempted to cross the river in baroque armoured barges or over bridges melded from the bodies of screaming slaves, the traitors charging across the flesh-structures to reach the Space Wolves. Seeing a chance to turn the tide of battle, Logan Grimnar led his Wolf Guard down into the gore-clouded water to meet the berserk warriors of Khorne head-on. The Chaos Champion Akor Doomflayer charged out of the ranks of the World Eaters, his rune-encrusted axe cutting down two of Grimnar's Wolf Guard in the span of a few moments. Suddenly the Great Wolf found himself fighting for his life, Doomflayer's insane fury pushing him back toward the Imperium's defensive line. With an incoherent cry the Khornate Champion struck the flat of Grimnar's Frost Blade, shattering it into a million glittering shards. Doomflayer's moment of triumph was also his last, as the Great Wolf lunged inside his executioner's swing, ripping off his skull-faced helm with a clawed hand and sinking his fangs into the exposed throat underneath. As Doomflayer fell into the bloody river Grimnar snatched up his opponent's crimson-steel axe, cutting a path back to his Wolf Guard through knots of homicidal Khornate Berserkers. For the rest of the campaign on Armageddon Logan fought with the axe, and upon his return to Fenris he had it reforged, dubbing it the Axe Morkai.

**Dakka Wolf**

Books wrote:
So this quote is apparently from Champions of Fenris A Codex: Space Wolves Supplement according to some quick internetting I have done. Does leave plenty of gray area since it is reforged, but it is(or at one point was) a weapon of chaos clearly.

Logan Grimnar's chosen weapon is a trophy of war, prised from the cold dead hands of a powerful champion of the Dark Gods. It was upon the battlefields of Armageddon that the Great Wolf won his fabled axe, amid the blood and fire of the battle on the banks of the River Chaeron. After hours of bitter fighting, the river ran red with blood and the bodies of Cultists and traitor Guardsmen were piled high. World Eaters Chaos Space Marines attempted to cross the river in baroque armoured barges or over bridges melded from the bodies of screaming slaves, the traitors charging across the flesh-structures to reach the Space Wolves. Seeing a chance to turn the tide of battle, Logan Grimnar led his Wolf Guard down into the gore-clouded water to meet the berserk warriors of Khorne head-on. The Chaos Champion Akor Doomflayer charged out of the ranks of the World Eaters, his rune-encrusted axe cutting down two of Grimnar's Wolf Guard in the span of a few moments. Suddenly the Great Wolf found himself fighting for his life, Doomflayer's insane fury pushing him back toward the Imperium's defensive line. With an incoherent cry the Khornate Champion struck the flat of Grimnar's Frost Blade, shattering it into a million glittering shards. Doomflayer's moment of triumph was also his last, as the Great Wolf lunged inside his executioner's swing, ripping off his skull-faced helm with a clawed hand and sinking his fangs into the exposed throat underneath. As Doomflayer fell into the bloody river Grimnar snatched up his opponent's crimson-steel axe, cutting a path back to his Wolf Guard through knots of homicidal Khornate Berserkers. For the rest of the campaign on Armageddon Logan fought with the axe, and upon his return to Fenris he had it reforged, dubbing it the Axe Morkai.

Melted down, remade, blessed for protection and still open to Chaos.
In the Warzone Fenris blurb (the whole story is about four pages long) Khorne supercharged the axe to screwTzeentch over and send Magnus packing.

As for Murderfang, he's a Dreadnought who has turned Wulfen. Not many other chapters can pull a trick like that - chaos or loyalist.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
As for Murderfang, he's a Dreadnought who has turned Wulfen. Not many other chapters can pull a trick like that - chaos or loyalist.

You have got to be kidding me. That is basically word for word what happened with Moriar, except replace "Murderfang" with "Moriar" and "Wulfen" with "Black Rage".

**pm713**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:
As for Murderfang, he's a Dreadnought who has turned Wulfen. Not many other chapters can pull a trick like that - chaos or loyalist.

You have got to be kidding me. That is basically word for word what happened with Moriar, except replace "Murderfang" with "Moriar" and "Wulfen" with "Black Rage".

GW being unoriginal. I'm shocked....

**Dakka Wolf**

pm713 wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Dakka Wolf wrote:
As for Murderfang, he's a Dreadnought who has turned Wulfen. Not many other chapters can pull a trick like that - chaos or loyalist.

You have got to be kidding me. That is basically word for word what happened with Moriar, except replace "Murderfang" with "Moriar" and "Wulfen" with "Black Rage".

GW being unoriginal. I'm shocked....

Since Wulfen lore can pretty much be swapped out word for word with Black Rage I'll pay that.

**Books**

yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

**Fenris-77**

Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

Look around your FLGS on a Saturday and flip a coin....

**mrhappyface**

Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

And who wants to play a bunch of furies?

**Dakka Wolf**

mrhappyface wrote:
Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

And who wants to play a bunch of furies?

As Fenris said, look around your FLGS and flip a coin.

**hobojebus**

mrhappyface wrote:
Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

And who wants to play a bunch of furies?

People who've gone through puberty.

**Fenris-77**

Between Vamps and Furries we pretty much have teen angst covered. Give those same kids a couple of years and the S&M phase will kick in and they'll all be playing DE and Sisters.

**mrhappyface**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

And who wants to play a bunch of furies?

As Fenris said, look around your FLGS and flip a coin.

I wasn't really stating no one plays wolves, I was just making a rhetoric to his rhetoric.

hobojebus wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

And who wants to play a bunch of furies?

People who haven't gone through puberty.

Fixed that for you.

**Dakka Wolf**

mrsourface wrote:
Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

People who want to justify their necrophilia.

Got you covered.

**mrhappyface**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
mrsourface wrote:
Books wrote:
yeah sure but who wants to play as a bunch of vamp kids?

People who want to justify their necrophilia.

Got you covered.

Exalted because of the name change. Well played sir!

**GodDamUser**

Its twilight all over again..

But on Chaos weapons... Wasn't Calgaur's fists, pried from the dead hands of a Chaos Warlord?

**BrianDavion**

GodDamUser wrote:
Its twilight all over again..

But on Chaos weapons... Wasn't Calgaur's fists, pried from the dead hands of a Chaos Warlord?

yeah, so it's not like the space wolves are unique here, given that the examples we've seen of sactified weapons are all at the chapter master level, and that clearly it can't be done with every weapons (otherwise why is crowe doing what he's doing) suggests that just having a shot at purifying weapons is resource intensive

**Dakka Wolf**

IoM isn't smart enough to mass borrow Chaos or Xenos weapons.
My favourite is Necron weapons - the use and even the study of Xenos tech is forbidden so information doesn't spread and nobody knows that after managing to capture Necron tech then actually managing to activate it the thing disappears.
Nobody says a word.
The cycle repeats.
Getting things back on track the same is true of geneseeds, tampering with the Emperor's holy work is forbodden so nobody leaves a paper trail, everybody starts clueless.

**BrianDavion**

Dakka Wolf wrote:
IoM isn't smart enough to mass borrow Chaos or Xenos weapons.
My favourite is Necron weapons - the use and even the study of Xenos tech is forbidden so information doesn't spread and nobody knows that after managing to capture Necron tech then actually managing to activate it the thing disappears.
Nobody says a word.
The cycle repeats.
Getting things back on track the same is true of geneseeds, tampering with the Emperor's holy work is forbodden so nobody leaves a paper trail, everybody starts clueless.

despite "no xenos tech here" being the party line it's actually pretty clear that it's done a fair bit, some of the grey knights weapons are alluded to be of xenos "inspiration" IIRC. and we have numerous stories of the admech attempting to study necron tech (those stories almost alies end with "and then the necrons wake up and kill everyone") and of course we have the story regarding Ullanor/Armageddon which suggests the Admech where studying Ork tech.

back on the subject of geneseed, I dunno about that, we also have some evidance that the admech has occasionally tinkered with it, such as with the 21st founding. we Know Cawl's been around since the 2nd founding or so, (and presumably was pretty senior even back then given he was entrusted with a task by Gulliman, whom I doubt grapped some low ranking schlub) so it's possiable they've been tinking with the geneseed since then (hell it's possiable the 21st founding was an early attempt to roll out the advances they thought they'd made)