Small Dark Angel leak and discussion.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Ronin_eX**

Luciferian wrote:
Well said, Ronin. I agree; I'll take a small loss of character in order to be more versatile.

Also, did anyone notice that some characters can replace weapons with any weapon on the melee list, and that all melee weapons are free? Which means my Interrogator Chaplain is getting that flail with spillover damage.

Sadly, according to the wargear blurb at the start of the DA section, we use the lists on Page 11 (the space marine lists) instead of the proprietary Dark Angel one. So no flails for our characters as of right now.

**Luciferian**

Aeri wrote:
if a wound spills over, does the next model get a safe?
Can I take the halberd of caliban on a IC on bike? that sounds pretty bad ass

Although sammael on Corvex might still be more powerfull because of the reroll in the shooting phase and the insane sword and firepower

That's a good question. Also, I was wrong, the initial introduction section states you can choose from the vanilla SM list. So we can't choose DA weapons at all!

**Darkagl1**

Aeri wrote:
Overall, I am ok with the new DA rules.
Yes, BKs are a bit different, DWKs lost their shield wall which I really liked, but on the other hand Sammael got a huge buff and I really like that. I also like the greater damage output on our showcase units.

What really feths me up is, that the fluff is in no way represented anymore.

Bikes were always delivering teleport homers for the Deathwing to strike with precision.
Now everybody can do that.
Why can't bikes have something like the new Tau Beacons? (1 use Deepstrike 6'' around the Beacon, regardless how close other units are. Beacon gets removed as soon as an enemy unit gets as close as 9 '')

I agree that the bikers bringing in the deathwing should still be a thing, but I could totally see that as a strategem, which would do work without hideously overcosting ravenwing.

**Darkagl1**

Ronin_eX wrote:
Aeri wrote:
Overall, I am ok with the new DA rules.
Yes, BKs are a bit different, DWKs lost their shield wall which I really liked, but on the other hand Sammael got a huge buff and I really like that. I also like the greater damage output on our showcase units.

What really feths me up is, that the fluff is in no way represented anymore.

Bikes were always delivering teleport homers for the Deathwing to strike with precision.
Now everybody can do that.
Why can't bikes have something like the new Tau Beacons? (1 use Deepstrike 6'' around the Beacon, regardless how close other units are. Beacon gets removed as soon as an enemy unit gets as close as 9 '')

Personally, I always hated the RW as teleport homers thing they tried pushing starting in 4th Edition. First, it was an outgrowth of Jervis Johnson wanting to make non-vanilla marines in to a more focused thing. This is around the time double-wing got pushed as "the way to play" and the battle companies got shoved off to the side. Meanwhile folks who ran pure RW or pure DW suddenly found their force pointless without the other. Then 5th came, gears shifted, and the 4th edition codex (along with the Chaos dex) became odd artifacts of a failed design paradigm.

When our 6th Edition codex came along, they decided to double down on dualwing and in doing so they doubled down on Dark Angels being one trick ponies. But the worst part was that terminators sucked, and DW were basically more expensive terminators with not much extra to offer. Meanwhile RWBK's were insanely powerful. So oddly, dualwing got better as Deathwing were used less, making those teleport homers, given to us in 4th to push an army paradigm no one asked for, ever more vestigial.

And GW retconned fluff, adding in things to justify the dualwing where it never existed before. Our 2nd Company became a slightly outer inner circle, yadda yadda.

It was neat, but it was badly handled. By tying the DW and the RW so close together, they invalidated other potential combinations. RW paid a premium to bring in teleporting terminators, so fielding battle company units alongside them was a waste. DW were entirely tied to the idea of teleport assault and actively penalized for deviating from any build that would let them use their TL'd alpha strike (anemic as it was). RWBKs only made it out the other end because of their insane death-star potential, the rest of the list was hopelessly mired in an absurdly reductive design paradigm foisted on us three editions prior at a time when the whole point was making us more limited and inflexible than vanilla.

This list is much closer to our 2nd Edition Angels of Death force. Deathwing aren't tied to any one tactic, they are just fearless terminators. RW are simply a skilled recon arm of the Chapter, not Deathwing Delivery Service. But the best part is, in 2nd we saw insane markup compared to already expensive marine units. In 8th, we get the fluff and flavour but without the exorbitant price tag. And then we have the added bonus of having DWK's and RWBK's along with the various mini-heroes and champions to give a lot more variety to our lists.

For the first time in a while pure DW and RW aren't leaving points on the table and they aren't overcosted to the point where marines can pull our shtick better than we can. No more vanilla biker hordes outperforming the RW because they can bring 25% more units. No more vanilla terminators outperforming DW because GW decided that replacing one immunity to morale with a (usually worse) immunity to morale cost 3-5 points per model.

Our codex will likely come along and pile more on, but the way the list is right now is better (for the list as a whole) than we've had since the transitional period before we got our own codex in 4e and were using the hybridized vanilla/DA list. But unlike that, this one is a lot closer to our flavour from 2nd Edition. This is basically our list from Codex: Angels of Death done right. Maybe the teleport assault thing gets brought back later as a stratagem or optional bit of gear with its own cost, but I pray we never get hobbled with a near mandatory "preferred tactic" ever again.

See I do think the teleport homing should be a thing still, but hopefully it will be handled via strategems which seems fluffy and solid without overcosting ravenwing. The deathwing definitely sound more like they should, but that's mainly because morale is real thing again so immunity to it matters. I'm a bit sad deathwing knights don't have some sort of survivability buff over regular deathwing, but they are super killy.

As for the ravenwing here I have an issue. In 2nd the jink mods were a huge deal and made ravenwing pretty hardcore imo. Now like you said the homers and jink reroll could leave them way to expensive or way to abusive depending on who you talk to, but now they aren't the elite bikers/speeders of the imperium. Sure they're barely more expensive but jink is a relatively meaningless ability unless the opponent likes shooting lascannons at them. Now if they could have done the +1 armor or -1 to hit for jink then all good. Both are broad decent buffs and a fair trade for the negative to hit.

**Luciferian**

The thing that makes Ravenwing, Ravenwing in 8th is Black Knights.

I was kind of joking earlier when I said the new RW list was Sammael and all RWBK, but then again I was kind of not.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Luciferian wrote:
The thing that makes Ravenwing, Ravenwing in 8th is Black Knights.

I was kind of joking earlier when I said the new RW list was Sammael and all RWBK, but then again I was kind of not.

I actually thought you weren't. And you really, really shouldn't be.

For all their newfound frailty, the Black knights pack a hell of a punch

**Retrogamer0001**

Any word on Belial? Just curious if Hammer/Shield is still the way to go.

**Luciferian**

Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Any word on Belial? Just curious if Hammer/Shield is still the way to go.

**Ronin_eX**

Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Any word on Belial? Just curious if Hammer/Shield is still the way to go.

In all honesty? I think they may have gotten the balance pretty well tuned on this one (well, claws still aren't fantastic...).

The Sword of Silence now wounds non-vehicles on a 2+ and deals 2 damage and you get a parrying blade to give others a -1 to hit you back. So against most targets you are wound on a 2+ and that -1 to hit has much the same effect as a +1 to his invuln save in most cases.

The hammer and shield is more effective against vehicles in general (because it actually boosts your strength) but you're stuck wounding T5-7 on a 3+. And against most assault units where you can expect to find AP of -2 or greater, that 3++ comes in handy (though not as universally useful as the -1 to-hit which comes in to effect regardless of the enemy's AP). And of course, Belial with a hammer hits on 3+ instead of 2+.

And the SoS of course comes with a ranged attack, so there is that to keep in mind (even if it is just four shots at point blank).

In general, unless you are expecting Belial to crack open a lot of vehicles, the sword actually seems the better overall choice. The TH&SS comes in to its own when facing down vehicles and things with incredibly high save mods where the benefit of a 3++ blows past that universal -1 to hit.

2+ to hit, 2+ to wound anything from a grunt to a monstrous creature, same -3 AP, but only 2 damage instead of 3. It has actually spurred me on to grab a sword+SB Belial for once since it seems like the most useful general choice where TH&SS feels more specialized.

**Luciferian**

What do you guys think about Sableclaw vs. Corvex? I could whip up a decent Sableclaw cheaply and easily, but it can be targeted regardless of who's in front of it. I would personally rather take Corvex just for that, but I don't really want to pay $50 for that model.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Luciferian wrote:
What do you guys think about Sableclaw vs. Corvex? I could whip up a decent Sableclaw cheaply and easily, but it can be targeted regardless of who's in front of it. I would personally rather take Corvex just for that, but I don't really want to pay $50 for that model.

Competitively I believe Corvex is the superior choice at the moment mainly because you can screen it easily with Speeders and Knights.

Additionally Sammael on Corvex can get a wound back from RW apothecaries - something he can't on Sableclaw.

**Crimson_**

Did anyone notice that we totally lost anti-air? Nephilim and the Dark Talon both hit other flyers on 5+. I guess it's not so bad since ground units only get a -1 modifier for shooting flyers.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Crimson_ wrote:
Did anyone notice that we totally lost anti-air? Nephilim and the Dark Talon both hit other flyers on 5+. I guess it's not so bad since ground units only get a -1 modifier for shooting flyers.

That Mortis Contemptor purchase is looming ever closer on the horizon for me.

edit: But now that I double checked on it, they're hitting on a 4+ (+3 BS before penalty for shooting at flyers.)

**Darkagl1**

In other news, it seems odd that the fallen basically have stubborn and the OW boost greenwing lost.

**Ronin_eX**

Darkagl1 wrote:
In other news, it seems odd that the fallen basically have stubborn and the OW boost greenwing lost.

Chalk at least some of that up to the index being a future-proofed base document.

Since chapter tactics aren't implemented in it for any marines and most marines are using the same basic set of units, keywords are likely going to be used to implement alterations due to chapter tactics for these basic units.

Meanwhile, Fallen are a completely unique and separate unit in Chaos rather than a full faction like the Death Guard and the like. So they can get direct modification of special rules.

Meanwhile, anything that has been future-proofed for future releases using keywords (chapters, legions, marks of chaos, etc.) are just using the main faction's default special rules.

So we may end up getting something similar to the Fallen for our battle company units, but it hasn't been implemented yet because all of our battle company units are basic marine units with the <Dark Angels> keyword. When our codex drops they can just have a blurb that says "all models selected from Index Imperium I from the base space marine list that have the <Dark Angels> keyword gain rules X, Y, and Z, replacing ATSKNF" or something to that effect. They can even implement a cost for it (if the chapter tactics are good enough to warrant it of course).

By making sure they have all their bases covered with keywords, it becomes really easy to modify things after the fact... I'm not sure how I feel about GW actually pre-planning and future-proofing armies for later releases. Used to be that the Unforgiven would get to be Space Marine Beta Test and then the main marine codex would roll out and suddenly they will have always had access to a bunch of units and their equipment will be conspicuously better for no reason. I'm liking the new modular approach and what it means for factions with a bunch of different sub-factions that may not get updated concurrently. Should cut down on situations like we ran in to when the storm shield went from 4++ to 3++ (and other times codices didn't agree on what standard equipment should do).

So who knows, the Fallen may be previewing what our Battle Company will get? Though if they do I expect a bit of a price bump for battle company units.

**ZebioLizard2**

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Luciferian wrote:
What do you guys think about Sableclaw vs. Corvex? I could whip up a decent Sableclaw cheaply and easily, but it can be targeted regardless of who's in front of it. I would personally rather take Corvex just for that, but I don't really want to pay $50 for that model.

Competitively I believe Corvex is the superior choice at the moment mainly because you can screen it easily with Speeders and Knights.

Additionally Sammael on Corvex can get a wound back from RW apothecaries - something he can't on Sableclaw.

Sableclaw can be repaired by Tech-Priests however.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Luciferian wrote:
What do you guys think about Sableclaw vs. Corvex? I could whip up a decent Sableclaw cheaply and easily, but it can be targeted regardless of who's in front of it. I would personally rather take Corvex just for that, but I don't really want to pay $50 for that model.

Competitively I believe Corvex is the superior choice at the moment mainly because you can screen it easily with Speeders and Knights.

Additionally Sammael on Corvex can get a wound back from RW apothecaries - something he can't on Sableclaw.

Sableclaw can be repaired by Tech-Priests however.

That is quite correct - I do believe RW apothecaries have a better synergy regarding a ravenwing list.

On the other hand it does open up the possibility of using Sableclaw on an AM list for... whatever reason.

**ChazSexington**

'Sup, Bathrobes?

Darkagl1 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
it's possiable chapter tactics are covered on a differant page so greenwing may still have it's bonus.

The chapter tactics thing is a possibility, we'll have to see how it turns out. Not sure what that would do to help ravenwing.

Yeah I'm pretty worried that my giant pile of ravenwing are gonna be pretty crap.

BrianDavion wrote:
it's possiable chapter tactics are covered on a differant page so greenwing may still have it's bonus.

Ronin_eX wrote:

While I'm sure our codex will end up adding things back on, I can't stress how solid and viable this base is feeling. Our battle company stuff is cheap and has parity with vanilla marine stuff for the most part (because we're all pulling from the same basic pool of units). Our RW stuff isn't at a huge markup compared to vanilla marines while we retain a bunch of unique units that vanilla can't replicate for it. Our DW stuff has achieved points parity with vanilla terminators while retaining their characteristic flexibility.

Bland? Meh, maybe, everyone is back to black codex simplicity again. But viable in more than just a few weird formations? I think so. We are no longer "vanilla, but more expensive and less flexible" and I'm glad for that.

Everyone lost Chapter Tactics, and CSM lost Legion tactics. They confirmed they'll be back (well, at least Legions), presumably in codices. So, I guess you're in luck!