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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.

8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third

 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





 Tsol wrote:


Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


Or...Tzaangors, since it's Thousand Sons after all.

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Made in ca
Bloodthirsty Bloodletter




The Eye of Terror

Summoned Brimstone Horrors on standby to block off charges could be useful for Thousand Sons.

Cheap to use too.



 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Somewhere

 Tsol wrote:
IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


People have been posting more and more on the viability of Rubrics and Tzaangors. Good stuff! Thank you for posting!

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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 Tsol wrote:
IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


Here is the problem, you DON'T want chaff units with Rubrics. They have a 2+ save vs against most small arms fire. Putting Tzzangors on the table gives your opponent something to shoot at that doesn't have a 2+ save which makes their army more effective even if they only have 2 or 3 units with D1 weapons. The re-roll has almost a nil effect, 6% increase in saves. On top of that Tzzangors have a LD of 7 and no way to mitigate that number so if they lose 7, which is not difficult to do, if you roll a 3 or more on morale you lose an entire 10 man squad. Rubrics seem like they are super durable except an AP -2 multi damage weapon will tear through them all the same. People are going to force that 5+ save on your 20 point models. If you want the Soul Reaper Cannon you have to bring 10 man squads at least, with 8 leadership that means losing 7 in 1 turn means a 4+ and the squad is gone, losing 8 means a 3+ on morale loses the squad. Now you can say well how fast will they die to heavy weapons fire, or Plasma and things of that nature? Well a single squad of MEQ with 3 plasma Rifles will do about 2 wound in rapid fire range, even with re-rolling 1s to save. This does not even take into account mortal wounds which get no save and are hyper effective against Rubrics.

Edit: as a side note this is a thread for Thousand Sons tactics. Fabius, Abbadon, and Chaos Lords cannot be taken in a Thousand Sons army. For Thousand Sons the only way to get rerolls to hit rolls of 1 is to bring Magnus or a Daemon Prince.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/12 18:52:54


 
   
Made in cr
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




None of that means Rubrics are bad troops, though.

Tzaangors will die if targeted but that's their job.

Hopefully the days of victory through list building are gone, like chaff or 2+ skew lists.
   
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Yoyoyo wrote:
None of that means Rubrics are bad troops, though.

Tzaangors will die if targeted but that's their job.

Hopefully the days of victory through list building are gone, like chaff or 2+ skew lists.


Yes it does. Troops need to be good at something. Rubrics are good at nothing. They have a 45 Psyker that isn't a Psyker and pays extra for a CC weapon that that he can't kill anything with because he lacks the attacks to hit anything reliably. 20 point models that have guns that would be good if you shot a few more bullets or hit a bit more often, but we lack the model count to shoot enough bullets to do any noticible damage. As a reference it takes 1200 points of Rubrics in rapid fire range to kill 260 points of SM in the open with inferno bolters. The only way to make them better at range is to quadruple thier attacks AND increase the str of the weapon by 1, or add an attack and make them auto hit, and by doing those things you either almost double or more then double the cost of the models.

These are supposed to be elite troops, but they like regular SM at a vastly increased price unless your talking about CC in which case the SM are better.

 
   
Made in cr
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Inferno Bolters have a good profile vs MEQ. Rubrics aren't a glass cannon and they have a psyker with a force weapon, of course they will cost more. If you want a unit that shoots a lot with no other remarkable qualities (and taxes), play Tau already.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 04:35:26


 
   
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Yoyoyo wrote:
Inferno Bolters have a good profile vs MEQ. Rubrics aren't a glass cannon and they have a psyker with a force weapon, of course they will cost more. If you want a unit that shoots a lot with no other remarkable qualities (and taxes), play Tau already.


Yes, but this is my point they are trying to have the unit do everything. Which makes it good at nothing. They need to pick 2 or 3 things and have it be good at those things. Right now Rubrics are difficult to kill and have no other redeeming qualities.

 
   
Made in cr
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That's a quality of all MEQ troops, that gripe has been said a million times about Tac Marines.

Inferno Bolters won't make them play like Fire Warriors.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 Tsol wrote:
IMHO, and take even this admission with some salt, as I have only played about a dozen games. Rubirc Marines seem to me (at least at the moment of what I have seen/experienced) to be possibly the best troop choice in the game.

Why you may ask, in astonishment and incredulity. Acceptable S4, fantastic ap-2, Rapidfire makes its decent range and excellent shot numbers at short range. Combined with a spiffy 5++ and a stock! I repeat Stock 2+ save to near all small arms fire means these guys are effectively terminators with better range guns.

What makes them great other than just good, (such as plague marines who are pretty good) is place these bad boys in cover to get a 1+ save. Making even plasma weapons relatively unlikely to hurt their save too much (ignoring supercharged).
Take Chaos hero boons from synergy. Fabious Bile comes to mind (making these guys toughness 5 would be so mean, though somewhat risky), Abaadon for mass rerolls, or just a Chaos Lord for Rerolls of 1. Maybe a sorceror for some psyker stuffs. Or just using the 1k suns own HQs for that amazing reroll 1 invunerable save.

The unit by itself, it a bit costly to me, but once paried with some buffs like the ones I listed above, they can get pretty spicy and very, very hard to remove off the table.

Just make sure you have some cultists to screen them. Or pox zombies.


Here is the problem, you DON'T want chaff units with Rubrics. They have a 2+ save vs against most small arms fire. Putting Tzzangors on the table gives your opponent something to shoot at that doesn't have a 2+ save which makes their army more effective even if they only have 2 or 3 units with D1 weapons. The re-roll has almost a nil effect, 6% increase in saves. On top of that Tzzangors have a LD of 7 and no way to mitigate that number so if they lose 7, which is not difficult to do, if you roll a 3 or more on morale you lose an entire 10 man squad. Rubrics seem like they are super durable except an AP -2 multi damage weapon will tear through them all the same. People are going to force that 5+ save on your 20 point models. If you want the Soul Reaper Cannon you have to bring 10 man squads at least, with 8 leadership that means losing 7 in 1 turn means a 4+ and the squad is gone, losing 8 means a 3+ on morale loses the squad. Now you can say well how fast will they die to heavy weapons fire, or Plasma and things of that nature? Well a single squad of MEQ with 3 plasma Rifles will do about 2 wound in rapid fire range, even with re-rolling 1s to save. This does not even take into account mortal wounds which get no save and are hyper effective against Rubrics.

Edit: as a side note this is a thread for Thousand Sons tactics. Fabius, Abbadon, and Chaos Lords cannot be taken in a Thousand Sons army. For Thousand Sons the only way to get rerolls to hit rolls of 1 is to bring Magnus or a Daemon Prince.


Hello again, just some more info for you and the others. I don't play 1k suns however, they are my most common opponent due to my good friend having a 1k sun who I play 40k with the most. I play Nids, Space Marines, Admech and guard and I can indeed for sure (though I'm still under 20 games) tell you that Rubric marines are not crap. And yes, you do want chaff for Rubirc marines, like all armies in 8th you need melee units or just tarpits to counter charge or deter charging units from hitting your range units. if you're rubircs are not shooting their guns, you aren't using them right, or you've been countered. You'll find this to be true for every faction except grey knights, whom are good at all forms of combat except going second.

Always place Rubric marines in cover for a 1+ save. People keep forgetting that they have All is dust, which stacks with cover saves. Meaning, they will be all but immune to small arms fire. Even plasma will not outright threaten them: 3+ save, All is Dust +1, cover save +1= 1+ save, plasma ap-3 gives them a 4+ save. That's a tough armor to crack. Rubrics don't often lose many units to moral, it does happen, but due to their hardy nature and high leadership, you won't lose many unless you roll poorly, in which case my buddy like the jerk he is, often just burns a command point to reroll that odd 6. As for the rest of your moral qualms, yes, that is true for every armor except the tyranids (and some orks). Its the new mechanic, not sure what else to say other than I two am not too fond of it.

10 man squads with the soulureaper cannons are beastly... You may be unimpressed by them on paper, but when it shave 3 wounds off a dreadnught or deletes a tyranid warrior all by itself, you might reconsider it.

As for saying rerolls to 1 is nothing of note, all I can say to that is, sir, you must not play terminators. I kid, its not a huge boon, but you'd be surprised how often I've yelled feth, when my buddy rolls a bunch of 1s and hhis stupid face smirks as he rerolls saves which should have taken his models off the table.

Mortal wounds are the best answer to Rubrics, luckily each has a psyker in the squad, meaning you'll have a darn good chance at negating them from other psykers. Ask me how I feel when my 6 Zoantrhopes super smite gets nullified by their dumb pskyer.

Rubric marine flamers are super costly, and super deadly. Put them in a rhino or a spot which you expect to be contested by deepstrike or whathave you. I've lost 14 genestealers to overwatch from a 5 man 4 flamer rubric squad. It sucked.

Lastly, yes, this is a 1k suns thread, but you may still use Chaos model and units. If you check the keywords you can insert any chaos model with the 1ks faction (other than characters who can still be taken but may not grant all their buffs). So for example, although you cant take a Chaos Lord from the 1ks subfaction, but if you want to be more practical, you'll notice a generic Chaos Lord grant rerolls to "Heretical Astartes" keyword, which indeed the Rubric marines have. So you can and should benfit from those characters buffs. Just remember to check your keywords. **Remember your detachment just has to have 1 common keyword IE CHAOS

Again, I haven't played enough to make any grand claims or this is best or this is worst, just I have fought a lot of Rubric marines, and I can defiantly say, they are not crap.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/13 12:17:47


8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




They're one wound terminators against anything that only does one damage. For 20 points you're rocking a 2+save most of the time and a 5++ or 4++ with a ap-2 bolter. I'll admit the sorcerer is a tax and if I could just take the rubrics I would but the sorcerer is not overly priced like last edition. Smite is no joke and it's an auto wound basically on a 5+ For 43 points if you cause 3 wounds all game with smite you should make your points back against meq. Plus they're not bad in cc if you find yourself in there.

As for chaff we get the best chaff unit in the game with brimstone horrors. 20 points for 10 T3 4++ that get smite off a third of the time? Yessssss your rubrics should never walk alone without these guys in front to eat a charge
   
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Rubrics and Scarab Occult do a lot of things well, but they don't have the volume of firepower to mulch hordes. They also don't have a lot of high-strength multiwound attacks to deal with big monsters and vehicles.

I think LR/Pred and Dreadnoughts are a decent option for the latter. Tzaangors with Pistols/Chainswords are probably the best anti-horde without leaning on allies.
   
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If you want straight Tsons then tzaangors are good anti horde. but you're going to need havocs to thin true horde armies as we are too close ranged to thin them out properly. I run 2 havoc squads with hvy bolter and missile launchers. I'm also toying with the idea of running fallen with combi bolters alongside my rubrics.

But for pure tsons you'll want dreads and demon princes close to your rubrics and chaff in front to absorb nastiness. Like a first turn swarmlord charge or 20 genestealers.

Against really mobile armies though with lots of firepower like dark eldar you're going to need allies to really deal with them as I don't think vehicles will last long enough to put a dent in them
   
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So, let me be clear I am not trying to be mean in this post, but you said some things that made it obvious that you are lacking in the knowledge department when it comes to this Army and the game in general.

 Tsol wrote:
Hello again, just some more info for you and the others. I don't play 1k suns however, they are my most common opponent due to my good friend having a 1k sun who I play 40k with the most. I play Nids, Space Marines, Admech and guard and I can indeed for sure (though I'm still under 20 games) tell you that Rubric marines are not crap. And yes, you do want chaff for Rubirc marines, like all armies in 8th you need melee units or just tarpits to counter charge or deter charging units from hitting your range units. if you're rubircs are not shooting their guns, you aren't using them right, or you've been countered. You'll find this to be true for every faction except grey knights, whom are good at all forms of combat except going second.


Okay, here is your logic. If you have units that can die from small arms fire and units that can't die from small arms fire your better off then if you have ONLY units which don't die from small arms fire. So, even from a basic logic perspective there is a problem. This is not even looking at what Tzzangors are. Melee unit with pistols as an "upgrade" which make them much worse in CC. They have a LD of 7 and come in units of 10 minimum, they have no way to mitigate their leadership at all. This means if you kill 7 on a 3+ the rest of the squad runs off, the only way to get them to where they are supposed to be is to buy a Rhino, making them 14 PPM. 14 PPM for a "chaff" unit is ridiculous, a chaff unit that will only draw fire that we don't need them to draw. It takes 40 bolter shots to kill 8 Tzzangors, the same number of shots will kill 2 Rubrics, 40 points of Rubrics or 70 points of Tzzangors, those are your options.

 Tsol wrote:
Always place Rubric marines in cover for a 1+ save. People keep forgetting that they have All is dust, which stacks with cover saves. Meaning, they will be all but immune to small arms fire. Even plasma will not outright threaten them: 3+ save, All is Dust +1, cover save +1= 1+ save, plasma ap-3 gives them a 4+ save. That's a tough armor to crack. Rubrics don't often lose many units to moral, it does happen, but due to their hardy nature and high leadership, you won't lose many unless you roll poorly, in which case my buddy like the jerk he is, often just burns a command point to reroll that odd 6. As for the rest of your moral qualms, yes, that is true for every armor except the tyranids (and some orks). Its the new mechanic, not sure what else to say other than I two am not too fond of it.


Overcharged plasma is multi-damage(no All is Dust benefit) they are AP -3 which bumps your save up to 5+ lets assume you have that re-roll 1s for invul saves. Overcharged Plasma has S8 so they wound on 2s, with no support they kill 3 Rubrics (60 points min) and lose 1 guy, with rerolling 1s (which will probably always be the case) you kill 4 and lose 1 guy every 2 rounds of doing that.

 Tsol wrote:
10 man squads with the soul reaper cannons are beastly... You may be unimpressed by them on paper, but when it shave 3 wounds off a dreadnught or deletes a tyranid warrior all by itself, you might reconsider it.


I am unimpressed by the fact that my Elite unit of Rubric Marines are susceptible to Morale. Bringing 10 guys makes them more Susceptible, losing 8 guys in a turn means even a 1 on a morale test and I'm losing a 40 point model at least, that's not including if the army I'm fighting has anything that reduces the LD of an enemy unit.

 Tsol wrote:
As for saying rerolls to 1 is nothing of note, all I can say to that is, sir, you must not play terminators. I kid, its not a huge boon, but you'd be surprised how often I've yelled feth, when my buddy rolls a bunch of 1s and his stupid face smirks as he re-rolls saves which should have taken his models off the table.


That's great that it helps your friend sometimes, but exceptional circumstances cannot be used to judge the generic impact. Do the math the saves for from a 33% occurrence rate to a 39% occurrence rate, the difference is literally nil. The number is so low its almost embarrassing i would rather they made the unit 20 points cheaper and take the aura off.

 Tsol wrote:
Mortal wounds are the best answer to Rubrics, luckily each has a psyker in the squad, meaning you'll have a darn good chance at negating them from other psykers. Ask me how I feel when my 6 Zoantrhopes super smite gets nullified by their dumb pskyer.


Psykers are not the only way to get mortal wounds,there not even the best way to get mortal wounds since the main source is non-targetable. Snipers and units that cause mortal wounds that can actually target units rather then hit the closest are much better. Not to mention you should be bring Venomthropes for the -1 to hit.

 Tsol wrote:
Rubric marine flamers are super costly, and super deadly. Put them in a rhino or a spot which you expect to be contested by deepstrike or what have you. I've lost 14 genestealers to overwatch from a 5 man 4 flamer rubric squad. It sucked.


Yes they can be deadly if your opponent does not know what there doing. Stand more then 8" away and the flamers aren't allowed to shoot. Warp Flamers will become the most expensive "upgrade" that no one bring because it is borderline useless.

 Tsol wrote:
Lastly, yes, this is a 1k suns thread, but you may still use Chaos model and units. If you check the keywords you can insert any chaos model with the 1ks faction (other than characters who can still be taken but may not grant all their buffs). So for example, although you cant take a Chaos Lord from the 1ks subfaction, but if you want to be more practical, you'll notice a generic Chaos Lord grant rerolls to "Heretical Astartes" keyword, which indeed the Rubric marines have. So you can and should benfit from those characters buffs. Just remember to check your keywords. **Remember your detachment just has to have 1 common keyword IE CHAOS


let me put a quote here from the book directly, from under the "Forces of the Thousand Sons" entry in the Chaos Index "The Heretic Astarties datasheets listed to the right can be from the Thousand Sons Legion. Those that have the <Legion> keyword on thier datasheet can replace it in all instances with Thousand Sons. If a heretic astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the Thousand Sons Faction keyword". Chaos Lord is not on that list, and I will post the whole thing if you want. You CANNOT have a Thousand Sons Chaos Lord, the best you can do is put Rubrics in a regular CSM army as Elites, but then its not a Thousand Sons army then is it, its just a regular CSM army with Rubrics in it. The Chaos Lord does not give his bonus to "Heretic Astartes" he gives his bonus to units with the same "<Legion>" keyword.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
demontalons wrote:
They're one wound terminators against anything that only does one damage. For 20 points you're rocking a 2+save most of the time and a 5++ or 4++ with a ap-2 bolter. I'll admit the sorcerer is a tax and if I could just take the rubrics I would but the sorcerer is not overly priced like last edition. Smite is no joke and it's an auto wound basically on a 5+ For 43 points if you cause 3 wounds all game with smite you should make your points back against meq. Plus they're not bad in cc if you find yourself in there.

As for chaff we get the best chaff unit in the game with brimstone horrors. 20 points for 10 T3 4++ that get smite off a third of the time? Yessssss your rubrics should never walk alone without these guys in front to eat a charge


Why is your opponent going to let you cast Smite on expensive models? What happens when you roll that double 1 or double 6 and kill 200+ points in models? For an Aspiring Sorcerer to make his points back he needs to kill at LEAST 65 points worth of models, because he will kill at LEAST himself and 1 Rubric when he perils.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/13 22:20:00


 
   
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*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Predators are way more efficient ranged support than either the Brutes or Maulers. I'd probably take at least on Tri-Las Pred in every 1K list.

DPs for punch, Tzaangors for bubble wrap, lots of smiting, Rubrics for midfield control, and Preds for fire support. Plus, you know, Magnus. If you have enough other fatties on the board the Preds aren't the obvious 1st turn target all the time.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in cr
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




A min-size unit of Tzaangors being destroyed in one shooting phase by 20-40 marines isn't really unexpected.

I don't understand why that's a valid criticism.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Yoyoyo wrote:
A min-size unit of Tzaangors being destroyed in one shooting phase by 20-40 marines isn't really unexpected.

I don't understand why that's a valid criticism.


Becuase if dont bring any Tzzangors what are they going to shoot at?

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So, let me be clear I am not trying to be mean in this post, but you said some things that made it obvious that you are lacking in the knowledge department when it comes to this Army and the game in general.

 Tsol wrote:
Hello again, just some more info for you and the others. I don't play 1k suns however, they are my most common opponent due to my good friend having a 1k sun who I play 40k with the most. I play Nids, Space Marines, Admech and guard and I can indeed for sure (though I'm still under 20 games) tell you that Rubric marines are not crap. And yes, you do want chaff for Rubirc marines, like all armies in 8th you need melee units or just tarpits to counter charge or deter charging units from hitting your range units. if you're rubircs are not shooting their guns, you aren't using them right, or you've been countered. You'll find this to be true for every faction except grey knights, whom are good at all forms of combat except going second.


Okay, here is your logic. If you have units that can die from small arms fire and units that can't die from small arms fire your better off then if you have ONLY units which don't die from small arms fire. So, even from a basic logic perspective there is a problem. This is not even looking at what Tzzangors are. Melee unit with pistols as an "upgrade" which make them much worse in CC. They have a LD of 7 and come in units of 10 minimum, they have no way to mitigate their leadership at all. This means if you kill 7 on a 3+ the rest of the squad runs off, the only way to get them to where they are supposed to be is to buy a Rhino, making them 14 PPM. 14 PPM for a "chaff" unit is ridiculous, a chaff unit that will only draw fire that we don't need them to draw. It takes 40 bolter shots to kill 8 Tzzangors, the same number of shots will kill 2 Rubrics, 40 points of Rubrics or 70 points of Tzzangors, those are your options.

 Tsol wrote:
Always place Rubric marines in cover for a 1+ save. People keep forgetting that they have All is dust, which stacks with cover saves. Meaning, they will be all but immune to small arms fire. Even plasma will not outright threaten them: 3+ save, All is Dust +1, cover save +1= 1+ save, plasma ap-3 gives them a 4+ save. That's a tough armor to crack. Rubrics don't often lose many units to moral, it does happen, but due to their hardy nature and high leadership, you won't lose many unless you roll poorly, in which case my buddy like the jerk he is, often just burns a command point to reroll that odd 6. As for the rest of your moral qualms, yes, that is true for every armor except the tyranids (and some orks). Its the new mechanic, not sure what else to say other than I two am not too fond of it.


Overcharged plasma is multi-damage(no All is Dust benefit) they are AP -3 which bumps your save up to 5+ lets assume you have that re-roll 1s for invul saves. Overcharged Plasma has S8 so they wound on 2s, with no support they kill 3 Rubrics (60 points min) and lose 1 guy, with rerolling 1s (which will probably always be the case) you kill 4 and lose 1 guy every 2 rounds of doing that.

 Tsol wrote:
10 man squads with the soul reaper cannons are beastly... You may be unimpressed by them on paper, but when it shave 3 wounds off a dreadnught or deletes a tyranid warrior all by itself, you might reconsider it.


I am unimpressed by the fact that my Elite unit of Rubric Marines are susceptible to Morale. Bringing 10 guys makes them more Susceptible, losing 8 guys in a turn means even a 1 on a morale test and I'm losing a 40 point model at least, that's not including if the army I'm fighting has anything that reduces the LD of an enemy unit.

 Tsol wrote:
As for saying rerolls to 1 is nothing of note, all I can say to that is, sir, you must not play terminators. I kid, its not a huge boon, but you'd be surprised how often I've yelled feth, when my buddy rolls a bunch of 1s and his stupid face smirks as he re-rolls saves which should have taken his models off the table.


That's great that it helps your friend sometimes, but exceptional circumstances cannot be used to judge the generic impact. Do the math the saves for from a 33% occurrence rate to a 39% occurrence rate, the difference is literally nil. The number is so low its almost embarrassing i would rather they made the unit 20 points cheaper and take the aura off.

 Tsol wrote:
Mortal wounds are the best answer to Rubrics, luckily each has a psyker in the squad, meaning you'll have a darn good chance at negating them from other psykers. Ask me how I feel when my 6 Zoantrhopes super smite gets nullified by their dumb pskyer.


Psykers are not the only way to get mortal wounds,there not even the best way to get mortal wounds since the main source is non-targetable. Snipers and units that cause mortal wounds that can actually target units rather then hit the closest are much better. Not to mention you should be bring Venomthropes for the -1 to hit.

 Tsol wrote:
Rubric marine flamers are super costly, and super deadly. Put them in a rhino or a spot which you expect to be contested by deepstrike or what have you. I've lost 14 genestealers to overwatch from a 5 man 4 flamer rubric squad. It sucked.


Yes they can be deadly if your opponent does not know what there doing. Stand more then 8" away and the flamers aren't allowed to shoot. Warp Flamers will become the most expensive "upgrade" that no one bring because it is borderline useless.

 Tsol wrote:
Lastly, yes, this is a 1k suns thread, but you may still use Chaos model and units. If you check the keywords you can insert any chaos model with the 1ks faction (other than characters who can still be taken but may not grant all their buffs). So for example, although you cant take a Chaos Lord from the 1ks subfaction, but if you want to be more practical, you'll notice a generic Chaos Lord grant rerolls to "Heretical Astartes" keyword, which indeed the Rubric marines have. So you can and should benfit from those characters buffs. Just remember to check your keywords. **Remember your detachment just has to have 1 common keyword IE CHAOS


let me put a quote here from the book directly, from under the "Forces of the Thousand Sons" entry in the Chaos Index "The Heretic Astarties datasheets listed to the right can be from the Thousand Sons Legion. Those that have the <Legion> keyword on thier datasheet can replace it in all instances with Thousand Sons. If a heretic astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the Thousand Sons Faction keyword". Chaos Lord is not on that list, and I will post the whole thing if you want. You CANNOT have a Thousand Sons Chaos Lord, the best you can do is put Rubrics in a regular CSM army as Elites, but then its not a Thousand Sons army then is it, its just a regular CSM army with Rubrics in it. The Chaos Lord does not give his bonus to "Heretic Astartes" he gives his bonus to units with the same "<Legion>" keyword.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
demontalons wrote:
They're one wound terminators against anything that only does one damage. For 20 points you're rocking a 2+save most of the time and a 5++ or 4++ with a ap-2 bolter. I'll admit the sorcerer is a tax and if I could just take the rubrics I would but the sorcerer is not overly priced like last edition. Smite is no joke and it's an auto wound basically on a 5+ For 43 points if you cause 3 wounds all game with smite you should make your points back against meq. Plus they're not bad in cc if you find yourself in there.

As for chaff we get the best chaff unit in the game with brimstone horrors. 20 points for 10 T3 4++ that get smite off a third of the time? Yessssss your rubrics should never walk alone without these guys in front to eat a charge


Why is your opponent going to let you cast Smite on expensive models? What happens when you roll that double 1 or double 6 and kill 200+ points in models? For an Aspiring Sorcerer to make his points back he needs to kill at LEAST 65 points worth of models, because he will kill at LEAST himself and 1 Rubric when he perils.


No offense taken, nor do I think you're being mean and am always glad to be challenged! The only reason I'm posting on here is I assume most people have not played many games, if any let alone play have their games against the thousand suns, so I am sharing my experience and view of these units. But again, I must contest about half of your criticisms the others I agree with.

(Sorry I have no idea how to do the quote things so I'm just going to line item this)

I'm afraid on the first response, either I don't think I conveyed my meaning well, as your response has nothing to do with what I was trying to say. Rubric marines excel at range combat, keep them there, you'll need support units to protect them or deter charges. I agree though, I think zangors are trash, I've had no trouble killing them in range or melee (as Tyranids and mech).

In 8th edition, armor saves are much better/useful than before, overall. Adding anything to that armor save is very useful. By this I mean, All is dust, combined with cover saves or other shenanigans (even the dreaded Void Sheild Generator, which mind you, gives a 4+ invu, and you pair that with a 1k sorceror, and you have a 4++ reroll 1s. It's things like this which theory hammer simply won't help you with until you play them on the table and start army building. The point being, these guys are very tough, with some of the best stock saves in the game plus invuls and when combined with combos and cover, become harder to remove off terrain than terminators (other than the scarabs, who also have all is dust and do the same thing but better).

Moral is moral, I agree, I don't like the mechanic. Anytime you're hit, you're probably going to lose models, its both a matter of choice and preference on how you wish to try and mitigate this. Many list builders are going for MSU, from my play experience, you're going to want bigger squads. Yes they are bigger targets, but to hold objectives and keep them at fighting strength or just to give them access to more weapons, you'll need bigger squads. Remember, in matched play, you can only attempt to cast 1 of each psyker power. Bigger squads will give you more bang for your buck on synergy bonuses, and this edition is all about AOS's character buffs. Again, this will come down to playstyle and preference. There are ways of mitigating moral, but don't worry, its not as bad as you think. I thought it was going to ruin the game until I realized it didn't nearly have as much as an impact as I thought it would. (I had similar thoughts on smite but after several games I changed my mind). Also FYI in your example, they have leadership 8 not 7 (Sorcerer gives the squad a slight LD buff), but yes. I can't take this criticism with much sincerity because I've seen how it palys and its not as bad as you think it is.

As for screens, I think we are construing our meanings here cause I wholly agree with you, chaff and screening units overall should be cheap. 1ksuns have somewhat expensive screeners but much more competent than most others. They'll perform better than cultist (situational) but what I was trying to make aware is 1 and 2 turn charges are common now. Rubric Marines are best at range but decent ay melee, you will NEED screeners be it chaff, or quality dedicated melee, because every turn they are not firing those bolters, you're wasting them as a unit. All armies are like this now. even Tau and space marines, you'll see people putting barebones scounts or even 5-10 man tactical squads bubble wrapping devestators and tanks to hinder and force deep strikers and 1 turn chargers to tackle them before the big guns.

Overcharged plasma will not be used unless someone brings rerolls or +1s to hit for synergy. Trust me, plasma is going to be big as my whole gaming group is running it a lot. But overcharge is not often used, until near the end of the game or when the unit is unlikely to survive the next turn (think of units about to be charged, or blown up from a more powerful unit). But yes, if out in the open and without support from a character, they will still lose 66% of their wounds. Which is shockingly good, considering they have a stock 5++ and when in cover or with a character they have effectively a 50% chance of ignoring it, (very crude mathhammer). Simply repeating that some of the best and most dangerous weapons in the game can kill these guys with much better ease than small arms fire to me, doesn't mean much, cause that is true for all units in the game. Which these units would stand better against than most. All I can save here is, try some skirmish games. Place some plasma guns at 24" and an equal amount of points of Rubircs and play it out, and simply watch how the games play. Or if you have friends who will test game with you, do it with them. I think you'll be surprised how hardy they are. Plasma or not. Remember, try not to think in a vacuum. Assume other units are on the table, assume there are more Rubrics and character buffs. Don't take my word for it. Try it.

As for taking wounds, and how that's bad, yes. It is. I'm assuming here that you have not played much of 8th. Things die. This is possibly the most lethal version of Warhammer I have played, (since 2ed). If you think a unit is bad because it may lose 2 or 3 models to focused plasma fire a round, you'll be happy to hear that just about any other units won't get saves, and will suffer much worse casualties than the Rubircs.

Yes, I agree, I don't like the new moral mechanic. However, I don't think its going away. I'll avoid repeating myself here and just move on to your next point.

Rerolls are good. It may not seem that way, but they are. Especially for an expensive unit. I agree though they should not be relied upon, but refer again to my comments about combos and you'll see why even just a reroll of invul saves of 1 is still good.

Correct, I wholly agree, mortal wounds are a hard counter to 1k suns due to their one wounds and high cost. Just a reminder, that is very true for most units in the game. However, most mortal wounds (in our games, as we have lots of psykers, my buddy being Thousand suns and me playing Tyranids) or at least large chunks of them come from psykers, throwing d3 or d6 or d3+d3, or d3+d6 mortal wounds about. As an Admech player and Tyranid player, I have many sources of Mortal wounds. Also yes, expect to see shittons of venomthropes. I currently only have 3 and fully intend to buy some more this weekend and hopfully get them painted up. They are super useful.

I'll take the flamer remark more as just a comment, not a criticism. Yes, flamers are expensive. For everyone. Rubric marines have some of th best flamers in the game. If you don't like them, thats fine, don't use them. But I have seen a rubric flamers delete both my genestealers and gaunts on overwatch and even 15 ork boys (out of thirty). Who they then beat in melee, because my buddy didn't roll at 1s on his armor saves. All I can say is, take the right tool for the job, if you don't expect them to be useful or want to use flamers, then don't. Keep their boltguns.

As for detachments, I'm happy to inform you, that you are both correct and wrong. You are correct that Thousnd sons legion restriction, you are wrong on army building. I'll post the core rule book page descirbing detachments if you like or even the character rules if you'd like to see their wording. I'll explain: You decide to take a Chaos detachment. You take 1k suns as your main leads, you take 1ks sorceror, a bunch of 1k suns maybe some zangors. Now you notice, you'd like some tanks or deamons. I'm going to capitolize some words here only to highlight keywords. You can take ANY units from the CHAOS Index in your CHAOS detachment. However, not all benefits will carry across all legions and units. For example, Magnus has several faction keywords I'll list them here: Chaos, Zeentch, Heretical astartes, thousand suns. As long as all your forces, in your whole detachment share at least one keyword such as CHAOS you can take them together in that detachment. This is also how Regualr Chaos forces can take Deamons or Magnus, despite not being Deamons or thousand suns. If you decide to only play thousands suns, you can, but your very, very limited, to the point you can't even take Rhinos or land raiders to transport troops, as those are CHOAS, faction not THOUSAND SUNS.

This is what allows you to take a Chaos generic Lord with your Chaos army or thousands suns, detachment and again. Just make sure your keywords match. I implore you not to ignore my claim again and check it yourself if you still doubt me, or if you'd rather I can post the pictures of the pages describing this.

And again, thanks for the criticisms, I'm always happy to hear other's thoughts as hopuflly I can learn something knew or get corrected on something I got wrong. And again, no worry, no offense taken!













8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third

 
   
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To be completely clear, the Forces of the Thousand Sons rule (Chaos Index, p. 49) ONLY restricts what units can replace <LEGION> with the THOUSAND SONS Faction. This is also clearly stated under <LEGION> on p. 10.

But to the original point, you can't combo a Chaos Lord with Rubrics or Tzaangor because he can't get the Faction in order to buff them with Lord of Chaos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 05:05:53


 
   
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Illinois

Pfff, I was going to highlight the Lord of Chaos buff. And you're correct, it does say specifically Legion, not Heretic Astartes. He cannot grant it to a dedicated thousand suns force, only a combined force. To which I concede but still think there is little reasons (other than fluff which can be a powerful reason) not to take a Chaos force over a thousand suns only force.

8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third

 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch





 Tsol wrote:
Pfff, I was going to highlight the Lord of Chaos buff. And you're correct, it does say specifically Legion, not Heretic Astartes. He cannot grant it to a dedicated thousand suns force, only a combined force. To which I concede but still think there is little reasons (other than fluff which can be a powerful reason) not to take a Chaos force over a thousand suns only force.

Agreed. I'm hoping the Codex makes taking mono-Legion a bit more attractive.
   
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TzeentchNet wrote:
To be completely clear, the Forces of the Thousand Sons rule (Chaos Index, p. 49) ONLY restricts what units can replace <LEGION> with the THOUSAND SONS Faction. This is also clearly stated under <LEGION> on p. 10.

But to the original point, you can't combo a Chaos Lord with Rubrics or Tzaangor because he can't get the Faction in order to buff them with Lord of Chaos.


You can but only if you bring a generic CSM army and take Rubrics as an Elites choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 16:19:14


 
   
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1 blue horror(or a pink if you want an icon) and 9 brimstone horros - best troop choice in the game. 4+ invulnerable with 10 wounds at 23 pts. Also comes with a 1/3 chance of smithing something.
   
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Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
TzeentchNet wrote:
To be completely clear, the Forces of the Thousand Sons rule (Chaos Index, p. 49) ONLY restricts what units can replace <LEGION> with the THOUSAND SONS Faction. This is also clearly stated under <LEGION> on p. 10.
But to the original point, you can't combo a Chaos Lord with Rubrics or Tzaangor because he can't get the Faction in order to buff them with Lord of Chaos.


You can but only if ypu bring a generic CSM army and take Rubrics as an Elites choice.

Aye, absolutely. I'm currently of the opinion that Rubrics are not as valuable in the Elite slot, but that's just my theoryhammer as I haven't used them outside of Thousand Sons faction. None of their combos with the 'generic' Chaos leaders really excites me, but I expect that to all change (or at least be a real decision) down the road. I think the upcoming Death Guard expansion will give us all a better idea of what to expect from Cult/Legion troops.

peirceg wrote:1 blue horror(or a pink if you want an icon) and 9 brimstone horros - best troop choice in the game. 4+ invulnerable with 10 wounds at 23 pts. Also comes with a 1/3 chance of smithing something.

Yes, this gets pretty disgusting (and mobs of Brimstones with The Changeling running herd is a great meatshield in the games I've had so far). For those wondering, you want the single blue horror so that you can use him as the Smite source - manifesting a power with just Brimstones means one automatically dies after the attempt.
   
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 Tsol wrote:
(Sorry I have no idea how to do the quote things so I'm just going to line item this)


Top right corner of every post has a quote button.

 Tsol wrote:
I'm afraid on the first response, either I don't think I conveyed my meaning well, as your response has nothing to do with what I was trying to say. Rubric marines excel at range combat, keep them there, you'll need support units to protect them or deter charges. I agree though, I think zangors are trash, I've had no trouble killing them in range or melee (as Tyranids and mech).

As for screens, I think we are construing our meanings here cause I wholly agree with you, chaff and screening units overall should be cheap. 1ksuns have somewhat expensive screeners but much more competent than most others. They'll perform better than cultist (situational) but what I was trying to make aware is 1 and 2 turn charges are common now. Rubric Marines are best at range but decent at melee, you will NEED screeners be it chaff, or quality dedicated melee, because every turn they are not firing those bolters, you're wasting them as a unit. All armies are like this now. even Tau and space marines, you'll see people putting barebones scounts or even 5-10 man tactical squads bubble wrapping devestators and tanks to hinder and force deep strikers and 1 turn chargers to tackle them before the big guns.


I realize you think it has nothing to do with what you said, but what I am saying is that there is no chaff that will draw the fire of weapons that you don't want shot at Rubrics. The best weapons to shoot at Rubrics are multi damage S8 weapons, your not going to find a "chaff" unit that can draw that fire for cheap which will do the job. The best "chaff" unit we have access to are cultists which die just as fast as rubrics point for point except Rubrics come with a better weapon, so your better off taking a Rubric rather then 4 Cultists. Rubrics are SUPPOSED to be good at ranged combat, but they are just not. They lack the model count to be any kind of noticeable force when it comes to ranged fighting, and they are slow AND have short ranges (24" is their max range). The only way to augment their shooting ability is to bring them in squads as large as possible, which makes them very vulnerable to Morale once people realize this they will just shoot a lot at one unit, kill 8 and 2 run off.

 Tsol wrote:
In 8th edition, armor saves are much better/useful than before, overall. Adding anything to that armor save is very useful. By this I mean, All is dust, combined with cover saves or other shenanigans (even the dreaded Void Sheild Generator, which mind you, gives a 4+ invu, and you pair that with a 1k sorceror, and you have a 4++ reroll 1s. It's things like this which theory hammer simply won't help you with until you play them on the table and start army building. The point being, these guys are very tough, with some of the best stock saves in the game plus invuls and when combined with combos and cover, become harder to remove off terrain than terminators (other than the scarabs, who also have all is dust and do the same thing but better).

Overcharged plasma will not be used unless someone brings re-rolls or +1s to hit for synergy. Trust me, plasma is going to be big as my whole gaming group is running it a lot. But overcharge is not often used, until near the end of the game or when the unit is unlikely to survive the next turn (think of units about to be charged, or blown up from a more powerful unit). But yes, if out in the open and without support from a character, they will still lose 66% of their wounds. Which is shockingly good, considering they have a stock 5++ and when in cover or with a character they have effectively a 50% chance of ignoring it, (very crude mathhammer). Simply repeating that some of the best and most dangerous weapons in the game can kill these guys with much better ease than small arms fire to me, doesn't mean much, cause that is true for all units in the game. Which these units would stand better against than most. All I can save here is, try some skirmish games. Place some plasma guns at 24" and an equal amount of points of Rubircs and play it out, and simply watch how the games play. Or if you have friends who will test game with you, do it with them. I think you'll be surprised how hardy they are. Plasma or not. Remember, try not to think in a vacuum. Assume other units are on the table, assume there are more Rubrics and character buffs. Don't take my word for it. Try it.


Yes armor helps, but it doesn't help that much, and its not totally insurmountable. Plasma is cheap, like dirt cheap, 13 points for MEQ and 7 for GEQ. 2 special weapons squads with Plasma rifles and a Company Commander, costs just over 150 points and can kill 2 rubrics outside of rapid fire range and 4 rubrics inside rapid fire range. It kills other units just as fast or faster, but they don't cost 20 points per model. In fact other units that cost about the same, like plague marines, are much more resilient to plasma fire (Taking 2 wounds when Rubrics take 4 wounds). The problem is the unit they want you to use to draw that fire are Tzzangors, which are NEVER going to draw that fire its just not going to happen. This is the problem. This is why its a valid criticism.

 Tsol wrote:
Moral is moral, I agree, I don't like the mechanic. Anytime you're hit, you're probably going to lose models, its both a matter of choice and preference on how you wish to try and mitigate this. Many list builders are going for MSU, from my play experience, you're going to want bigger squads. Yes they are bigger targets, but to hold objectives and keep them at fighting strength or just to give them access to more weapons, you'll need bigger squads. Remember, in matched play, you can only attempt to cast 1 of each psyker power. Bigger squads will give you more bang for your buck on synergy bonuses, and this edition is all about AOS's character buffs. Again, this will come down to playstyle and preference. There are ways of mitigating moral, but don't worry, its not as bad as you think. I thought it was going to ruin the game until I realized it didn't nearly have as much as an impact as I thought it would. (I had similar thoughts on smite but after several games I changed my mind). Also FYI in your example, they have leadership 8 not 7 (Sorcerer gives the squad a slight LD buff), but yes. I can't take this criticism with much sincerity because I've seen how it palys and its not as bad as you think it is.

As for taking wounds, and how that's bad, yes. It is. I'm assuming here that you have not played much of 8th. Things die. This is possibly the most lethal version of Warhammer I have played, (since 2ed). If you think a unit is bad because it may lose 2 or 3 models to focused plasma fire a round, you'll be happy to hear that just about any other units won't get saves, and will suffer much worse casualties than the Rubircs.

Yes, I agree, I don't like the new moral mechanic. However, I don't think its going away. I'll avoid repeating myself here and just move on to your next point.


I don't mind the morale mechanic as long as its applied consistently. Elite units don't suffer losses from morale, or rarely do. If there was a way to mitigate Morale losses so I could bring 10 man squads and get that extra fire power it wouldn't be a problem, but when you have almost 100 points run off the board in a single turn and can lose up to 100 points per unit you bring of 10 that is not an option.

 Tsol wrote:
Rerolls are good. It may not seem that way, but they are. Especially for an expensive unit. I agree though they should not be relied upon, but refer again to my comments about combos and you'll see why even just a reroll of invul saves of 1 is still good.


Some re-rolls are good, some are not. Re-rolling 1s can be a nice boon on anything that has a 4+. But 5+ and beyond its almost useless. As a reference point 4+ re-rolling 1s means an 8% increase (58.3%) a 3+ rerolling 1s gives you an 11% increase (77.7%) a 5+ only gets a 6% increase (38.8%). The 4+ doesn't seem like much but it pushes your failures down to almost 40% which is good. The 3+ Pushes you over 75% success which is very good having only a 22.3% failure rate is extremely good.

 Tsol wrote:
I'll take the flamer remark more as just a comment, not a criticism. Yes, flamers are expensive. For everyone. Rubric marines have some of th best flamers in the game. If you don't like them, thats fine, don't use them. But I have seen a rubric flamers delete both my genestealers and gaunts on overwatch and even 15 ork boys (out of thirty). Who they then beat in melee, because my buddy didn't roll at 1s on his armor saves. All I can say is, take the right tool for the job, if you don't expect them to be useful or want to use flamers, then don't. Keep their boltguns.


I am fine with taking weapons that do a job, but for 15 points, they better do that job extremely well. Especially if they only have a range of 8" on a model that has a 5" move. They don't do their job well that's the problem. Over watch can be totally negated, by standing more then 8" away, their cost means bringing a 5 man units with all flamers puts you around 170 points. 170 points even if you split the cost of a Rhino with another unit puts you over 200 points per unit, and HAVE to be within rapid fire range of the very weapons that will shred that unit to be able to use. But lets assume you do get this unit within 8" and manage to do 6 wounds to MEQ, and then they will be deleted. They amount to an extremely expensive upgrade that is little more then a deterrent to units to that want to be in CC with them. As to your examples everyone of those units has the ability to re-roll. All of those units should have been outside of 8" and you still would have made the charge most of the time. Mentioning how your friend has killed large numbers of Orks is at best anecdotal evidence. The average number of Orks that should die from flamer over watch is 7 not including the Aspiring Sorcerer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:
Aye, absolutely. I'm currently of the opinion that Rubrics are not as valuable in the Elite slot, but that's just my theoryhammer as I haven't used them outside of Thousand Sons faction. None of their combos with the 'generic' Chaos leaders really excites me, but I expect that to all change (or at least be a real decision) down the road. I think the upcoming Death Guard expansion will give us all a better idea of what to expect from Cult/Legion troops.


Try Chaos Lord on a Disk of Tzzentch, with a Combi-Plasma and whatever CC weapon you want him to have (I prefer Lighting Claw)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/14 22:51:20


 
   
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Once again, you are making some points that are on pretty shaky ground, like Flamers are a bad weapon because you might get charged from 9" away.

If they deter charges that's a good thing. If they make charges unreliable that's a good thing. If they inflict heavy casualties that's a good thing. The only question is opportunity cost, such as what's a better counter-assault solution. This is something you have not actually attempted to answer!

There is no perfect unit. The only real question is "what would work better"?
   
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Yoyoyo wrote:
Once again, you are making some points that are on pretty shaky ground, like Flamers are a bad weapon because you might get charged from 9" away.

If they deter charges that's a good thing. If they make charges unreliable that's a good thing. If they inflict heavy casualties that's a good thing. The only question is opportunity cost, such as what's a better counter-assault solution. This is something you have not actually attempted to answer!

There is no perfect unit. The only real question is "what would work better"?


Its not a "might" people will charge you from 9" away. They will make it a point to stay out of the flamers range espically if they have rerolls for their charge. Units with good armor saves or T5+ are not going to take heavy casualties. T4 models that get no save at all take 7 wounds. 30 Boyz don't have to worry about the casualties because on average 23 will get in which is more then enough to take the entire squad.

Im not saying that the deterrant is a bad thing. If it actully deters people from charging, but it dosen't it just makes it mildy harder to get the charge off (14% difference).

The reason I have not attempted to anwser that question is because there is no anwser. We have neither the support nor the units we need to stop a first turn charge, or a gunline army.

 
   
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You mentioned wanting an ability to control morale in case someone shoots at your 10 man unit and whittles it down to just a couple models. Don't forget about the strategem to ignore a morale check. I haven't run my 10 man units yet, but I was planning on saving my command points for keeping the soulreaper cannon alive at the end.
   
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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The reason I have not attempted to anwser that question is because there is no anwser.
Look. It's possible to get a Warpflamer unit 2" away from an Ork unit. If that Ork unit only moves 5", how will they charge you from 9" away?

You need to take the initiative here to create the situations that favour you, not just sit there like a punching bag. Don't let the opponent take the fight to you. This is not a gunline army where your only challenge is list building and target selection.

So do you have any ideas about how to maneuver Warpflamer Rubrics into range? Or is this another situation where "there are no answers?"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 17:08:56


 
   
 
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