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Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 lessthanjeff wrote:
You mentioned wanting an ability to control morale in case someone shoots at your 10 man unit and whittles it down to just a couple models. Don't forget about the strategem to ignore a morale check. I haven't run my 10 man units yet, but I was planning on saving my command points for keeping the soulreaper cannon alive at the end.


Not the ability to control morale simply some reasonable way to mitigate it. We already have that but it required you to have a 5 man squad. Problem is if you do that is no Soul Reaper Cannon, which means the squad lacks the punch to be worth shooting at. So add flamers except flamers have an 8" range. Okay new we have a unit with 8" range now we need a Transport alright. So, whats the points cost of that unit? 210 Points, 210 points for an 8" range unit whose movement is tied to something else, which if destroyed would take that unit 5 turns to move 24".

Every time you look at this unit you end up wanting to bring a bunch of flamers, and a transport, and never bringing the Soul Reaper Cannon. It does almost no damage and you have to spend a stupid amount of points to get them to the point where the enemy can't just ignore them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The reason I have not attempted to anwser that question is because there is no anwser.
Look. It's possible to get a Warpflamer unit 2" away from an Ork unit. If that Ork unit only moves 5", how will they charge you from 9" away?

You need to take the initiative here to create the situations that favor you, not just sit there like a punching bag. Don't let the opponent take the fight to you. This is not a gun line army where your only challenge is list building and target selection.

So do you have any ideas about how to maneuver Warpflamer Rubrics into range? Or is this another situation where "there are no answers?"


Except I already pointed out that Orks really don't have to worry their T is high enough to face tank the flamers and still get in with enough models to kill the unit, SM will be in trouble if they have only 5, Gaunts and Guard lose a LOT, like 10 models, but then they come in armies of 200 so 10 isn't stressful. Genestealers would lose a noticeable chunk, 5 models, but they have an 8 move and can re-roll. Units can either tank the shots or posses the movement to get outside of range.

Getting Warpflamers close, that's a lot of bad answers. Transport inflates the price of an already expensive unit, Warp Time can only be cast on a single unit which means you will have a lone unit way out in-front of you army which is not good. You can also foot slog it. Which is by far the cheapest but will take 2-3 turns at least to get in range with your flamers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/15 18:07:33


 
   
Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope





Okay so, recently invested in a 30k 1k sons army and 8th has me plotting how best to run it. I have the following:

30 legion vets with boltguns (6 w/ power swords, 3 sarges w/ fists)
10 sekhmet
spartan
3 deimos rhinos (magged pintles and havocs)
ahriman
the 2 chars from calth converted up as a medicae cataphractii and libby
6 jetbikes
1 double claw+grav dread in a dread pod

Have been running some points, and a core of:
Ahriman
Exalted Sorc
3x5 Rubrics
2x5 Scarabs, 1 Missles 1 Soulreaper each (planning on using magged bits)
Spartan (estimating points based on listed power)

...is approximately 1600pts. Thoughts on what else I could do? If I max out the three rubric squads, add soulreapers, and add a rhino I pretty much hit 2k. Similarly, 2 twin las and claw dreads are likely also a similar cost. Can't really see how to make the bikes work.

Also a question - given the Spartan and Contemptors are gonna be Helforged from FW, where does that leave me in terms of detachments? I've only read that everything in one must share a keyword - which all the listed stuff would - but I cannot work out how this interacts with the Thousand Sons army list?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Not the ability to control morale simply some reasonable way to mitigate it. We already have that but it required you to have a 5 man squad. Problem is if you do that is no Soul Reaper Cannon, which means the squad lacks the punch to be worth shooting at. So add flamers except flamers have an 8" range. Okay new we have a unit with 8" range now we need a Transport alright. So, whats the points cost of that unit? 210 Points, 210 points for an 8" range unit whose movement is tied to something else, which if destroyed would take that unit 5 turns to move 24".

Every time you look at this unit you end up wanting to bring a bunch of flamers, and a transport, and never bringing the Soul Reaper Cannon. It does almost no damage and you have to spend a stupid amount of points to get them to the point where the enemy can't just ignore them.



Huh? I was referring to your statement "The only way to augment their shooting ability is to bring them in squads as large as possible, which makes them very vulnerable to Morale once people realize this they will just shoot a lot at one unit, kill 8 and 2 run off. "

I'm pointing out that you can take 10 man units, get the soulreaper cannon if you want it, not feel the need to spam warpflamers, and not fear losing extra models from morale. My lists so far just have 2 10 man units in them with only a couple warpflamers in each squad and a soulreaper in each. I have 9 command points so I can spare tossing a couple at saving a few models especially if they'll be ones with valuable weapons in a prime position to take advantage of them.
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 lessthanjeff wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Not the ability to control morale simply some reasonable way to mitigate it. We already have that but it required you to have a 5 man squad. Problem is if you do that is no Soul Reaper Cannon, which means the squad lacks the punch to be worth shooting at. So add flamers except flamers have an 8" range. Okay new we have a unit with 8" range now we need a Transport alright. So, whats the points cost of that unit? 210 Points, 210 points for an 8" range unit whose movement is tied to something else, which if destroyed would take that unit 5 turns to move 24".

Every time you look at this unit you end up wanting to bring a bunch of flamers, and a transport, and never bringing the Soul Reaper Cannon. It does almost no damage and you have to spend a stupid amount of points to get them to the point where the enemy can't just ignore them.



Huh? I was referring to your statement "The only way to augment their shooting ability is to bring them in squads as large as possible, which makes them very vulnerable to Morale once people realize this they will just shoot a lot at one unit, kill 8 and 2 run off. "

I'm pointing out that you can take 10 man units, get the soulreaper cannon if you want it, not feel the need to spam warpflamers, and not fear losing extra models from morale. My lists so far just have 2 10 man units in them with only a couple warpflamers in each squad and a soulreaper in each. I have 9 command points so I can spare tossing a couple at saving a few models especially if they'll be ones with valuable weapons in a prime position to take advantage of them.


That's fine not sure how your getting 9 CP from 2 units, however that is not the problem the problem is that passing morale is 2 points each which means you have to bank those, and cant ever use them, which leaves you with 5 for re-rolls. For you to have 9 CP that means you have at least 4 HQs and unless I'm mistaken the minimum number of spells you can be casting per turn is 6, or your not running a Thousand Sons army, that gives you a chance to perils every 3 turns which you also need to bank, leaving you with 3 CP left, for re-rolls which some one could make you burn through in a single turn to prevent losing your expensive models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 00:20:45


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






The list I've made for my next practice game is 2 detachments if that's what you're trying to figure out.

Ahriman
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Tzaangors x10
Kharn the Betrayer
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Khorne Berserkers x10
Khorne Berserkers x10
Bloodletters x15
Heldrake

I will make more full Tson lists later but I'll probably be replacing the khorne stuff with scarab occult, maulerfiends, tanks, and/or havocs (of course I'll need to get Magnus out there sometimes too)

Right now, I don't see the point in relying a lot on psychic powers since we only have 3 to cast and can't cast the same spell twice (for the format I typically play) so I don't see the need to set aside as many dice for powers as you're describing. I will toss out smite when there is a good target of course, but I don't think my aspiring sorcs will be doing it much if ever. You also can't say every game you'll have to use 4 cp for morale control. You're not going to have every unit take exactly 7 or 8 casualties every game. You'll have lots of games where 1 unit take 4 casualties then the next it's killed completely or maybe the other way around so I wouldn't try to portion out your CP so meticulously.

Right now lots of armies are kind of weird to use since we don't have the codices yet. Once we do, we should get back our psychic power access and some good unique strategems to use. For now, I'm treating the thousand sons stuff more as elite killers for taking down units with good saves.

I'm not saying Rubrics are the best things since sliced bread, but I'm saying that they can be used in game now which is a much better place than they've been in a long time and I can't wait to see what the codex adds to get our unique flavor back.
   
Made in cr
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




TSS you might want to consider that if you charge a bigger Rubric squad with a Cannon and extra models, it's not as attractive to risk a 9" charge. You'll still eat Overwatch from the 24" weapons and the greater distance increases your risk of not making it in.

Plus in a bigger squad, the Sorcerer will have more time to put damage in CC with the Force Weapon and Pistol you're paying for.

Psychic Powers are pretty restricted right now but maybe Prescience + rr1s from Magnus could get some traction. And of course the bigger the squad, the more value you get for a unit buff.
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 lessthanjeff wrote:
The list I've made for my next practice game is 2 detachments if that's what you're trying to figure out.

Ahriman
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Rubric Marines x9 (2 warpflamers 1 soulreaper cannon)
Aspiring Sorcerer
Tzaangors x10
Kharn the Betrayer
Daemon Prince w/ Wings
Khorne Berserkers x10
Khorne Berserkers x10
Bloodletters x15
Heldrake


I will make more full Tson lists later but I'll probably be replacing the khorne stuff with scarab occult, maulerfiends, tanks, and/or havocs (of course I'll need to get Magnus out there sometimes too)

Right now, I don't see the point in relying a lot on psychic powers since we only have 3 to cast and can't cast the same spell twice (for the format I typically play) so I don't see the need to set aside as many dice for powers as you're describing. I will toss out smite when there is a good target of course, but I don't think my aspiring sorcs will be doing it much if ever. You also can't say every game you'll have to use 4 cp for morale control. You're not going to have every unit take exactly 7 or 8 casualties every game. You'll have lots of games where 1 unit take 4 casualties then the next it's killed completely or maybe the other way around so I wouldn't try to portion out your CP so meticulously.

Right now lots of armies are kind of weird to use since we don't have the codices yet. Once we do, we should get back our psychic power access and some good unique strategems to use. For now, I'm treating the thousand sons stuff more as elite killers for taking down units with good saves.

I'm not saying Rubrics are the best things since sliced bread, but I'm saying that they can be used in game now which is a much better place than they've been in a long time and I can't wait to see what the codex adds to get our unique flavor back.


The stuff in red is only legal as a Patrol Detachment, Which means you would have 6CP not 9.

This is my point your not playing a TS army your playing a Chaos Army and using Rubrics as an Elites choice. You have a bunch of fairly cheap models to run out in front of the army that will draw the enemy fire. Replace those Berserkers and Bloodletters with Tzzangors and Rubrics. You opponents will hit the rubrics with the heavy stuff and the Tzzangors with most small arms fire that can reach them. They are an elites army that wants to pay you 7PPM for chaff AND put them in a Rhino, making the base cost of your chaff unit 20 points higher then your non chaff unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote:
TSS you might want to consider that if you charge a bigger Rubric squad with a Cannon and extra models, it's not as attractive to risk a 9" charge. You'll still eat Overwatch from the 24" weapons and the greater distance increases your risk of not making it in.

Plus in a bigger squad, the Sorcerer will have more time to put damage in CC with the Force Weapon and Pistol you're paying for.

Psychic Powers are pretty restricted right now but maybe Prescience + rr1s from Magnus could get some traction. And of course the bigger the squad, the more value you get for a unit buff.


Yes, except if you charge a larger unit with only 2 flamers your going lose 3-4 max.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/16 18:11:01


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


The stuff in red is only legal as a Patrol Detachment, Which means you would have 6CP not 9.

This is my point your not playing a TS army your playing a Chaos Army and using Rubrics as an Elites choice. You have a bunch of fairly cheap models to run out in front of the army that will draw the enemy fire. Replace those Berserkers and Bloodletters with Tzzangors and Rubrics. You opponents will hit the rubrics with the heavy stuff and the Tzzangors with most small arms fire that can reach them. They are an elites army that wants to pay you 7PPM for chaff AND put them in a Rhino, making the base cost of your chaff unit 20 points higher then your non chaff unit.



You're right that I forgot I can't use bloodletters as troops in the khorne army since it's not khorne daemonkin anymore, but I can easily switch those out for cultists or just more berserkers to make the second Battalion Detachment.

Unless I'm missing something else though there is still a full Thousand Sons detachment there which means it should get rubrics as troops.

You can ignore the whole khorne detachment part and think of it as a smaller thousand sons force if you want, I just have that there to hit a 2000 point game tomorrow morning and I'm still trying to test lots of different units so I didn't want to make it all rubrics and scarab occult yet. I feel like once the codices come out you're going to be encouraged to play mono force armies and for now I want to test out lots of different units to see how they all play.
   
Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




I don't think it's bad that only 3-4 models are removed a turn. Let's compare at points, 2 Warpflamer Marines versus 11 Boyz at 66pts each.

In one shooting phase and one overwatch phase, a pair of Warpflamers will remove 42pts of Orkz. The remaining Orkz will then slapfight the Rubrics, the Orkz probably losing a model but generally being about four times as cost-effective in CC.

Since they lost about 8 models, to maybe killing a single Rubric Marine, without Morale tricks do the Orkz crumble? Probably. Does this mean Warpflamer Rubrics are good solution against Orkz? Well only when we cherry-pick a scenario and ignore all the other factors in our artificial comparison. This kind of selective mathhammer is maybe good for considering capability, but a bad way to pass judgment on a unit. Generally Rubrics are great at shooting up more expensive 3+ or 4+ units. A little more capability against hordes can be useful but I don't think it's why you want to field them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 20:27:50


 
   
Made in ca
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 lessthanjeff wrote:
You're right that I forgot I can't use bloodletters as troops in the khorne army since it's not khorne daemonkin anymore, but I can easily switch those out for cultists or just more berserkers to make the second Battalion Detachment.

Unless I'm missing something else though there is still a full Thousand Sons detachment there which means it should get rubrics as troops.

You can ignore the whole khorne detachment part and think of it as a smaller thousand sons force if you want, I just have that there to hit a 2000 point game tomorrow morning and I'm still trying to test lots of different units so I didn't want to make it all rubrics and scarab occult yet. I feel like once the codices come out you're going to be encouraged to play mono force armies and for now I want to test out lots of different units to see how they all play.


Try this:

2 Deamon Princes w/ 2 Malefic Talons
4 5 Man Squads of Rubrics w/ 2 flamers
2 5 Man SOT w/ Soul Reaper and Hellfyre Missile Rack
2 Rhinos
2 10 man Tzzangor units

that's 1,732 you can fill from there as you like.

Put the Rubrics in the Rhinos during deployment.

Keep in mind first turn you can disembark the Rubrics 3" and then move them 5" advance and still fire the flamers. Then embark the Tzzangors and move the Rhino up to block LOS of the more threatening weapons to the Rubrics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 21:24:31


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
You're right that I forgot I can't use bloodletters as troops in the khorne army since it's not khorne daemonkin anymore, but I can easily switch those out for cultists or just more berserkers to make the second Battalion Detachment.

Unless I'm missing something else though there is still a full Thousand Sons detachment there which means it should get rubrics as troops.

You can ignore the whole khorne detachment part and think of it as a smaller thousand sons force if you want, I just have that there to hit a 2000 point game tomorrow morning and I'm still trying to test lots of different units so I didn't want to make it all rubrics and scarab occult yet. I feel like once the codices come out you're going to be encouraged to play mono force armies and for now I want to test out lots of different units to see how they all play.


Try this:

2 Deamon Princes w/ 2 Malefic Talons
4 5 Man Squads of Rubrics w/ 2 flamers
2 5 Man SOT w/ Soul Reaper and Hellfyre Missile Rack
2 Rhinos
2 10 man Tzzangor units

that's 1,732 you can fill from there as you like.

Put the Rubrics in the Rhinos during deployment.

Keep in mind first turn you can disembark the Rubrics 3" and then move them 5" advance and still fire the flamers. Then embark the Tzzangors and move the Rhino up to block LOS of the more threatening weapons to the Rubrics.


Oh I'm definitely going to get some Thousand Sons only lists in like that soon, but I want to keep more varied lists for now until the codices come out. There are too many different units I need to try spread across too many different armies. That does sound pretty clever with advancing up the rubrics and getting some flames off if anything is nearby though. I've got to remember that I can still shoot after advancing with those.

I just want to make sure I haven't misunderstood something in the listbuilding stage for you to say my rubrics won't be troops and that I'd only have 6 command points though. I am thinking of switching the heldrake out for warptalons//scarab occult tomorrow so that I can drop them in and psychic phase move them up before charging though.

Edit: I'm not actually sure I can't use the original list I posted as two different battalion detachments as I described. I'm not seeing anything on the World Eater's rules that say you can only have world eater's units in the same detachment to get berserkers as troops in the same way that Space Marine armies can take Astra Militarum tanks for heavy support slots. By calling it a world eater's detachment I get khorne berserkers as troops but that doesn't seem to stop other troop slots from still being taken as far as I can tell. Am I missing something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 22:10:17


 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





You could use the army but it would only get you 6 CP not 9. If you swap out the bloodletters then you would be good.

World eaters is restricted to CSM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/16 23:55:44


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Making a World Eater's detachment doesn't seem to restrict you from taking other units as far as I can tell. It's just that only certain units get the "World Eater's" as a keyword. They're still both chaos faction just like how an imperial army can mix and match slots from various different armies in one detachment, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/17 00:01:37


 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Every unit in a detachment must have a common keyword to gain the benefits of said keyword. Otherwise there is no point in even having keywords. I could bring a TS detachment and have Rubric Marines as Troop choics and bring a bunch of stuff that isnt on the list.

 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch





 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Every unit in a detachment must have a common keyword to gain the benefits of said keyword. Otherwise there is no point in even having keywords. I could bring a TS detachment and have Rubric Marines as Troop choics and bring a bunch of stuff that isnt on the list.

You can have Rubric Marines as Troops as long as they are Thousand Sons Faction. You don't need to have the entire detachment as Thousand Sons to get that benefit. They may introduce theme detachments later that do have additional restrictions. If you want to mix Berserker World Eaters and Rubric Thousand Sons in the same detachment and both are Troops that's totally kosher too. Just follow any restrictions on the detachment itself.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Illinois

I'm going to try and edit this to shrink it down, I'll attempt to correct it, if I fail (still new to the whole quoting/editing things on this intranet thing.

@Thousand-Son-Sorcerer


Thank you! ---edit, I didn't figure out how to cut/only quote certain things. Im going to have to look it up to make this easier for me and you.

"I realize you think it has nothing to do with what you said, but what I am saying is..."

Yes, I agree with you here, Rubrics feel the loss really hard when hit by heavy weapons. As someone who has 3 squads of Kataphrons Heavy Grav/Plasma cannons, these units remove Rubrics with frightening efficiency. But again, their 5++ and rerolls of 1 mean instead of me outright removing my buddies squads, he usually suffers half casualties. In our games, I'd fire 15 heavy grav and kill about 3 of his Rubrics per exchange. Usually, I didn't lose any of my breaches, cause they were often out of range (except for that damn cannon), but they can also be repaired. Which they faired better than his termies (not scarabs but regular), which is why I say they are beefy burritos. Anything that can take that kind of firepower and only lose a few models is hardy. Though I haven't played against any plague marines yet, I can imagine that 5+++ being a huge pain.


"Yes armor helps, but it doesn't help that much, and its not totally insurmountable..."

I fully understand, right now I'm already plotting how to plasma spam the crap out of my guard. Haven't had any real experience with it yet though. My plasma has only been from my kataphrons and Space marines, whom I now favor other guys for them, due to their high costs of plasma. And again, I agree, Tazangors can't take a range hit. I'd recommend only using them as a melee screen, to deter or step inbetween anything that tries to tie up your 1ksuns. And yes, armour can be sundered, but every bit helps. It's realy annoying for my gaunts to wound rubrics 15 times and only see one of his 1ks drop. Cause that 1+ armor save (always put them in cover) is a pain in the ass to deal with.


"I don't mind the morale mechanic as long as its applied consistently..."

I personally hate it, I think by far it is the worst and most half-assed thing in all of 8th. It reeks of laziness and lack of inspiration as well as outright "eh, feth the fluff/lore". The reasons why I'm not giving much response on this is because it applies to all units now. Its just a new risk/reward mechanic now, which I hate, and when I'm army building do my best to find a means to ignore or mitigate it. I have no opinion on it other than I think its garbage and will hopefully be the first thing done away with next edition.


"Some re-rolls are good, some are not...."

Right now, my buddy is making his next list to include bunkers or the Void shield generator. Which both of these fortifications, help tremendously with survivability. The bunker gives up to 20 units effectively impunity from fire for the first 2 turns and can fire back (i think 10 if i remember correctly) without hindrance. The deamonprice? (notsure, still need to reread the chaos index) grants those sweet rerolls of 1s for 1ks since the Chaos Lord is out, but hes a bit expensive to be a babysitter, but that voidsheild generator granting everything within 12" bubble that awesome 4++ plus rerolls makes Rubrics (or anything really) very hardy. I suppose this also comes down to prefernce. I personally enjoy any rerolls I can get. In the few games I've played as Admech, the Void shield granting my robots a 3++ (due to special rules) made all of my buddies literally not bother shooting their heavy weapons at them, since a Laz cannon shot which can be dismised on a 3++ or in the case of a Rubirc 4++/reroll of 1s, will be placed on a different target. Or if still shot, has a high chance of mitigation. Combos like this are why I think that reroll of 1 for armor/shooting are so much better in game than on paper.

"I am fine with taking weapons that do a job, but for 15 points, they better do that job extremely well..."

i think here, our disagreement is just on prefrence. I think those flamers are worth it, because they kill soooo many of my damn troops. As a Tyranid melee player, I often simply don't charge units with 2-3 flamers. I'll charge the stuff that won't kill half my force before getting into melee. As an example, I had 15 genestealers charge a 5 man rubric squad with 4 flamers. He killed 9 of my genestealers on overwatch. For me, its too costly, I'll only charge them now if I don't have a choice or I need to tie them up. *Also note Warplame pistols are pistols.... They shoot in melee. That was a nasty surprise for me. So far in almost every game I have played across every factions me and my buddies have played/played against. MVP weapon is always flamers. This could change once my local META and experince of the game changes/improves.


Overall, I am very impressed with the 1ksuns. But I understand your detraction. I'm actually thinking of taking a 1ksun army, due to both, they look super cool, and I could build an army for super cheap. I think their strength is also their weakness, superheavy elite troops. I'm thinking of getting 3 boxes of Rubric Marines and a sorcerer lords box of 3 thing. Then either using daemons or dreadnaughts for heavy fire support (those forge fiends I think?). The goal being, 3 ten man squads of Rubircs (maybe more if I'm feeling sassy, buffed by deamonprice and sorcerors to jut throw ap-2 out across the board and hug cover or hide in bunkers, then have my dreadnaughts/forgiends deal with Monsterious creatures/tanks. I already have a Deamon Prince, dreadnaughts and some rhions, so it would be a relatively cheap and cool force to play.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/17 11:06:08


8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Every unit in a detachment must have a common keyword to gain the benefits of said keyword. Otherwise there is no point in even having keywords. I could bring a TS detachment and have Rubric Marines as Troop choics and bring a bunch of stuff that isnt on the list.


They have said that the keywords are a bit pointless right now and that we have to wait and see for how they work in the future. It sounds like we'll get keyword specific auras and strategems with our codex, which is why in the future we'll want to play a force that sticks to the most narrow keyword possible. It's similar in age of sigmar if you've played that. You get better benefits the more narrow the keywords represent your army so you can play a mixed chaos undivided army and get minor buffs or play a tsons only army and get bigger buffs that only affect those units. For now, there's no real need to play a super narrow force because we don't get any of the benefits from it yet. For now, all of the units I listed do share a common keyword "chaos".
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





I have played AOS. That is what im basing my assumption on. The benefit right now for WE, TS, DG, and EC is that if you bring everthing with thier keyword then you can bring tge corresponding cult Unit as a troops choice instead of an elites choice.

For example I play Skaven (Eshin) and if I bring all Eshin units then my Nightrunners are Battleline BUT if i bring even 1 unit of Warplock Jezzails then the Nightrunners no longer count as battleline.

 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Boulder, Colorado

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I have played AOS. That is what im basing my assumption on. The benefit right now for WE, TS, DG, and EC is that if you bring everthing with thier keyword then you can bring tge corresponding cult Unit as a troops choice instead of an elites choice.

For example I play Skaven (Eshin) and if I bring all Eshin units then my Nightrunners are Battleline BUT if i bring even 1 unit of Warplock Jezzails then the Nightrunners no longer count as battleline.


Yeah except it doesn't make that statement anywhere, coming from AOS it makes sense, but in fact that isn't how the rules are written.

   
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 Tsol wrote:
Yes, I agree with you here, Rubrics feel the loss really hard when hit by heavy weapons.

 Tsol wrote:
And again, I agree, Tazangors can't take a range hit. I'd recommend only using them as a melee screen, to deter or step inbetween anything that tries to tie up your 1ksuns.


These two things are the problem. My chaff unit needs to stand in front of my shooty unit, but if they do that then they are going to get shot up because all my weapons are 24" so for the Tzzangors to be in front they must be closer then 24", and because they have a terrible save it dosen't take much shooting to kill them, and they don't survive long in CC either.

 Tsol wrote:
I personally hate it, I think by far it is the worst and most half-assed thing in all of 8th.


It's the only way to deal with horde units.

 Tsol wrote:
Right now, my buddy is making his next list to include bunkers or the Void shield generator. Which both of these fortifications, help tremendously with survivability.


Now I want you to think about this, you friend is paying 400 points to make one of the most durable armies more durable. Does that seem reasonable to you?

 Tsol wrote:
i think here, our disagreement is just on prefrence. I think those flamers are worth it, because they kill soooo many of my damn troops. As a Tyranid melee player, I often simply don't charge units with 2-3 flamers. I'll charge the stuff that won't kill half my force before getting into melee. As an example, I had 15 genestealers charge a 5 man rubric squad with 4 flamers. He killed 9 of my genestealers on overwatch. For me, its too costly, I'll only charge them now if I don't have a choice or I need to tie them up.


This is not preferance, I pay lots of points for Rubrics as is, and adding a Warpflamer makes the models 33 points a piece. Terminators are 32 points, have more firepower outside of 8". Inside 8" they have almost the same fire power and 2 wounds same save, better in CC AND have Deepstrike. For me to get that unit close enough to do anything I HAVE to get a Rhino which ups the points to 40 per model, do you know what you can get for 40 PPM?

And again the genestealer thing was a fluke he killed 2x the models he should have.

 Tsol wrote:
*Also note Warplame pistols are pistols.


Warpflame pistols are worth thier points, but only because you can shoot them in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gummyofallbears wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
I have played AOS. That is what im basing my assumption on. The benefit right now for WE, TS, DG, and EC is that if you bring everthing with thier keyword then you can bring tge corresponding cult Unit as a troops choice instead of an elites choice.

For example I play Skaven (Eshin) and if I bring all Eshin units then my Nightrunners are Battleline BUT if i bring even 1 unit of Warplock Jezzails then the Nightrunners no longer count as battleline.


Yeah except it doesn't make that statement anywhere, coming from AOS it makes sense, but in fact that isn't how the rules are written.


Yes it does it says "Heretic Astartes data sheets from pages 16 to 42" that means only Heretic Astartes units can have that Faction keyword, if bloodletters can't have WE Faction keyword then your army cant be WE it can ONLY be Chaos.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/17 23:23:41


 
   
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What are people's thoughts on Aetaos for a Thousand Sons army? He's definitely a better model on his own than Magnus (as he should be at 700 points) though I think the reroll 1's would almost always be more useful than the Ld 10 aura Aetaos provides. I'd almost consider running both of them but Dark Jealousy makes that a pretty poor plan. He's tempting but not sure if he's 700 points tempting.

Here's his datasheet for reference:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 01:26:06


 
   
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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Yes it does it says "Heretic Astartes data sheets from pages 16 to 42" that means only Heretic Astartes units can have that Faction keyword, if bloodletters can't have WE Faction keyword then your army cant be WE it can ONLY be Chaos.


You didn't finish the quote. It says those units can replace the Legion keyword with the World Eater's keyword. Where does it say that a World Eater's army can only have units in it with the World Eater's keyword to receive certain benefits?

Same thing with the Thousand Sons or any of the Space Marine ones. They specify which units you can replace the keyword on with "Space Wolves" or whatever you want but they don't say anywhere that all the models in the detachment have to have that same keyword. That would be contrary to what GW has been saying about bringing an imperial army with Dark Angels and Astra Militarum in a single force.

It's already been taken to YMDC here too (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728848.page)
   
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I own Aetaos and will be using his model as a generic Lord of Change for right now. He's inferior to Magnus in a Thousand Sons army IMO due to lack of synergy, and that Dark Jealousy rule is problematic because you really should be leveraging multiple Daemon Princes at the points level you would pull out this guy.

His staff is really nice, but compared to some of the Hellforged vehicles ....
   
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Arachnofiend wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Aetaos for a Thousand Sons army? He's definitely a better model on his own than Magnus (as he should be at 700 points) though I think the reroll 1's would almost always be more useful than the Ld 10 aura Aetaos provides. I'd almost consider running both of them but Dark Jealousy makes that a pretty poor plan. He's tempting but not sure if he's 700 points tempting.

Here's his datasheet for reference:


You cant bring him with a TS army as he is not on the list but with a Tzzenth or Chaos Army. From the looks of him he would be much better off in a Tzeentch Daemon Army since he get the heralds give him a bump in Strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:

You didn't finish the quote. It says those units can replace the Legion keyword with the World Eater's keyword. Where does it say that a World Eater's army can only have units in it with the World Eater's keyword to receive certain benefits?

Same thing with the Thousand Sons or any of the Space Marine ones. They specify which units you can replace the keyword on with "Space Wolves" or whatever you want but they don't say anywhere that all the models in the detachment have to have that same keyword. That would be contrary to what GW has been saying about bringing an imperial army with Dark Angels and Astra Militarum in a single force.

It's already been taken to YMDC here too (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/728848.page)


It says it at tge top of the page "WORLD EATER ARMY RULES". As in rules for WE armies. As in rules for armies that all have the faction WE. Where in the berserker Data sheet does it say that Berserkers are troops choices if they are WE?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 03:25:27


 
   
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To your question, on page 47 it shows Khorne Berserkers as troops on the data sheet.

You are filling in lines that aren't there. The only statement on any of the pages for the various space marine and chaos space marine factions is that for specified units you replace some keywords with other ones. That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.

Thousand Sons, for example, states " if a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot have the 'Thousand Sons' keyword". Notice the significant difference that has over saying "if a Heretic Astartes unit does not appear in the list to the right, it cannot be included in the army".

So for Rubric marines, we've replaced "Legion" with "Thousand Sons", but that doesn't remove his keyword "Chaos".

From the rulebook, the rules for a battle-forged army state "Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same faction. For example, a Space Marine Captain has the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' keywords, so belongs to both the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' Factions. This means that if a Space Marine Captain was part of a Detachment, all other units in the Detachment must either be from the 'Imperium' Faction, or they must all be from the 'Adeptus Astartes' Faction." Emphasis here being on the word "either" as in our case we're relying on the keyword "Chaos" for building the detachment.

If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.
   
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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

It says it at tge top of the page "WORLD EATER ARMY RULES". As in rules for WE armies. As in rules for armies that all have the faction WE. Where in the berserker Data sheet does it say that Berserkers are troops choices if they are WE?

This is not complicated. You are free to house rule mono-faction Detachments, but that's not what the rules say or even intend. They will almost certainly have special Detachments later that reward having all models share the same <LEGION>, <SEPT>, <CHAPTER>, etc. but right now that's not the case (though you might look at Adeptus Mechanicus Canticles as a preview for how that might work). If you want to have a pure World Eaters force of nothing but WORLD EATERS Faction your choices are obviously limited.

Berserkers that choose WORLD EATERS for their <LEGION> are Troops per Berzerker Horde (p. 45 in the Chaos Index). That's it. That's all you have to do. No other model in your CHAOS army needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or even KHORNE to be Battle-forged and ready for Matched Play. See Army Faction (p. 214) and Battle-Forged Armies (p. 240) in the core rulebook. The (rather major) drawback of course being that you may not able to take advantage of the best CSM buffs if you don't share <LEGION>, whereas you could build an army with all your Rubrics and Berserkers being EVIL DUDES Faction and work better together at the expense of staying Elites and getting almost no synergy with Thousand Sons or World Eaters characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/18 04:23:31


 
   
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Oh so you get to just pick you faction, no limits, got it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
That's why I kept asking you if you were finding the rule somewhere that says "all units in the detachment have to have the world eater's faction" but so far it sounds like not.


Except it does in EVERY SINGLE DETACHMENT "enery unit in this army must have the SAME faction" not a COMMOM faction. Thats how you determine the faction of you army.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
From the rulebook, the rules for a battle-forged army state "Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same faction. For example, a Space Marine Captain has the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' keywords, so belongs to both the 'Imperium' and 'Adeptus Astartes' Factions. This means that if a Space Marine Captain was part of a Detachment, all other units in the Detachment must either be from the 'Imperium' Faction, or they must all be from the 'Adeptus Astartes' Faction." Emphasis here being on the word "either" as in our case we're relying on the keyword "Chaos" for building the detachment.


That only tells you the limits of what you can bring. Not HOW to determine the faction. If you include IG units then you HAVE to make the detachment Imperium, if you bring SM then you can choose Imperium, or Adeptus Astertes.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
If we went with your interpretation, then all the times they've been advertising having Space Wolves and Astra Militarum in the same army would be lies. The Space Wolves (and other chapter rules) state the same things and show a list of units that count as Space Wolves, but since they're Imperium you can still add in from other forces that are Imperium and that doesn't stop you from having troop choice Blood Claws.


No if you go with my "interpretation" you would and it would be an imperium army.

Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TzeentchNet wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

It says it at tge top of the page "WORLD EATER ARMY RULES". As in rules for WE armies. As in rules for armies that all have the faction WE. Where in the berserker Data sheet does it say that Berserkers are troops choices if they are WE?

This is not complicated. You are free to house rule mono-faction Detachments, but that's not what the rules say or even intend. They will almost certainly have special Detachments later that reward having all models share the same <LEGION>, <SEPT>, <CHAPTER>, etc. but right now that's not the case (though you might look at Adeptus Mechanicus Canticles as a preview for how that might work). If you want to have a pure World Eaters force of nothing but WORLD EATERS Faction your choices are obviously limited.

Berserkers that choose WORLD EATERS for their <LEGION> are Troops per Berzerker Horde (p. 45 in the Chaos Index). That's it. That's all you have to do. No other model in your CHAOS army needs to be HERETIC ASTARTES or even KHORNE to be Battle-forged and ready for Matched Play. See Army Faction (p. 214) and Battle-Forged Armies (p. 240) in the core rulebook. The (rather major) drawback of course being that you may not able to take advantage of the best CSM buffs if you don't share <LEGION>, whereas you could build an army with all your Rubrics and Berserkers being EVIL DUDES Faction and work better together at the expense of staying Elites and getting almost no synergy with Thousand Sons or World Eaters characters.


What does it say about ARMIES under matched play?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/18 06:46:13


 
   
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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.

The downside would be that the Rubric Marines, Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines would not have the <Emperor's Children> faction, and can't benefit from any EC Chaos Lords that you may be running. You can, however, have a unit of <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines and <Thousand Sons> Rubric Marines in the same detachment and they would both be considered troop choices (you wouldn't be able to take <Emperor's Children> Rubric Marines because Rubrics have the <Tzeentch> tag).
   
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Arachnofiend wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.

The downside would be that the Rubric Marines, Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines would not have the <Emperor's Children> faction, and can't benefit from any EC Chaos Lords that you may be running. You can, however, have a unit of <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines and <Thousand Sons> Rubric Marines in the same detachment and they would both be considered troop choices (you wouldn't be able to take <Emperor's Children> Rubric Marines because Rubrics have the <Tzeentch> tag).


Except you could just take A Chaos Lord with Khorne and World Eaters

 
   
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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Let me point out that with your interpretation I could bring Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berserkers, AND Plague Marines as troops choices in an EC army, and have no down sides.

The downside would be that the Rubric Marines, Khorne Berserkers, and Plague Marines would not have the <Emperor's Children> faction, and can't benefit from any EC Chaos Lords that you may be running. You can, however, have a unit of <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines and <Thousand Sons> Rubric Marines in the same detachment and they would both be considered troop choices (you wouldn't be able to take <Emperor's Children> Rubric Marines because Rubrics have the <Tzeentch> tag).


Except you could just take A Chaos Lord with Khorne and World Eaters

...And then your <Emperor's Children> Noise Marines won't benefit from that <World Eaters> Chaos Lord.
   
 
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