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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Boulder, Colorado

Hey everyone, I recently took the plunge (or should I say Impulse buy) on some thousand sons, specifically the exalted sorcerers kit and two boxes of rubric marines. I built both squads with the rotor cannons and bolters.

What combinations do you guys think is good for pure Thousand Sons? What is their main strength? Are they even playable as mono Tsons? thoughts? Comments? Critiques?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's hard to imagine sorcerers being as useful as before. Each power cast only once.. I guess heavy use of smite is the key.

   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Boulder, Colorado

Thoughts on the changeling in a mixed tzeentch and mortals army? -1 to hit is very powerful.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think Scarabs and Magnus are really good. Rubrics seem pretty Solid too. I'm not too sure about Tzaangors, but they are cheap so they might be what the army needs / might be worth a try.
   
Made in ca
Bloodthirsty Bloodletter




The Eye of Terror

Magnus + Warptime could be really potent. Move 30 " or so, smite a target, charge it with Str 16 3 damage attacks.



 
   
Made in gb
Sacrifice to the Dark God Tzeentch




At the moment im stuck for anti-armour/anti high toughness killing, as is usual with Thousand Sons and the loss of Heretech.

I'm not sure if i should run a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend or instead run 2 Helbrutes.

One Helbrute as a ranged turret with Missile Launchers and Twin Lascannons and one as a melee Helbrute with fists or fist and power scourge.

The difference is around 55~ points between the 2 choices but they both have benefits and disadvantages.

The Helbrutes dont lose anything the more wounds they take and stay strong on one wound or 8 wounds.
The Fiends lose effectiveness the more damage they take and are less accruate but have the benefits of regaining wounds and an invun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:03:42


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Pocket121 wrote:
At the moment im stuck for anti-armour/anti high toughness killing, as is usual with Thousand Sons and the loss of Heretech.

I'm not sure if i should run a Maulerfiend and Forgefiend or instead run 2 Helbrutes.

One Helbrute as a ranged turret with Missile Launchers and Twin Lascannons and one as a melee Helbrute with fists or fist and power scourge.

The difference is around 55~ points between the 2 choices but they both have benefits and disadvantages.

The Helbrutes dont lose anything the more wounds they take and stay strong on one wound or 8 wounds.
The Fiends loose effectiveness the more damage they take and are less accruate but have the benefits of regaining wounds and an invun.


I've been thinking along the same lines. I like the idea of two Maulerfiends to run alongside Magnus who would give them +1 to Invul and to hit. Its about 800 for the three of them, but its a big ball of death that you can't ignore.
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Somewhere

I am considering summoning screamers for anti tank if I can, have not looked at the scans in great detail.

Also, yes, until we know if 1k sons gets expanded spells our current role is to smite and deny our butts off.

With the loss of decurion style bonus, shenanigans and other special rules the flavor of our army being talented and gifted psychically comes across as sheer volume of sorcerers available rather than expanded spells, mitigation for perils etc... which I am ok with as I am happy about the overall army buffs.

We have a reason to take rubrics, and SOTs will be great with teleportation.

Also I plan on using Icons of flame on all my rubrics and termies in the beginning to see if these add up by turn 3 or 4.

Tzangoors are a great option to take for us know.

A bit bummed that exalted sorcerers lose their buff to Invlun saves on themselves if they take a disc and lost the infantry key word though perhaps this is an oversight.

I got Helbrutes and Heldrakes to bring along also.




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Made in us
Been Around the Block




I'm a fan of the Dinobots (Maulerfiends and Helldrakes) actually, at least in theory. Just watched the Twitch stream for Warhammer TV with the Thousand Sons vs. Dark Angels and the Helldrake did great work just harassing units. It can keep up with a Warpspeed Magnus and it can pick on weaker vehicles plus it gets buffs from Magnus.

Most importantly, I think the Demon Engines painted in Thousand sons blue with gold look awesome.
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Boulder, Colorado

How do you guys think that rubric marines should be equipped? Warpflamers or bolters? What about soul reaper cannons? Rhino?

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I think it depends on how you're planning to transport them. If you're putting them in 10 man squads in rhinos then I wouldn't go for more than 3 warpflamers in a squad. That's enough to deter small cc units and put some hurt on other stuff if you get close.

IF we can take a dreadclaw though I plan on taking 8 warpflamers and a flame pistol with a sorcerer with warptime. Drop them in warptime them to roast something and give your opponent something to worry about while the rest of the army closes in.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 gummyofallbears wrote:
How do you guys think that rubric marines should be equipped? Warpflamers or bolters? What about soul reaper cannons? Rhino?


They are slow, so my plan is to have them in Rhinos. As for load out, I am considering a few options. I'm not sure about mixing weapons yet even though New Hammer has split fire. I'm thinking two different squad layouts. One is a smaller squad with all Warp Flamers while the other is a 10 man unit with all boltguns and a soulreaper cannon. I want to run a lot of rubrics, so I'll mix and match the numbers but that is the plan right now.

Strength 5 on the Soulreaper is a nice value as you can take on the toughest units in the game in a pinch and still wound on 5s. It's incredibly expensive points wise to have 10 rubrics with the cannon, but I think I need to run one a few times at least. Having an Exalted Sorcerer on a Disc flying next to the Rhino backing it up will be nice as well.
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 gummyofallbears wrote:
Hey everyone, I recently took the plunge (or should I say Impulse buy) on some thousand sons, specifically the exalted sorcerers kit and two boxes of rubric marines. I built both squads with the rotor cannons and bolters.

What combinations do you guys think is good for pure Thousand Sons? What is their main strength? Are they even playable as mono Tsons? thoughts? Comments? Critiques?


Your not going to be able to run a pure TS army right now. At least not one that looks like a TS army anyways.

Smite is going to do unnoticible amounts of damage, Prescience only gives a +1 to hit now instead of the reroll so its not as good, Time Warp allows you to send 1 unit too far forward or 1 unit to run away leaving the Sorcerer there to die. And the other damaging spell is a worse version of smite.

We lack the sheer number of bullets to kill hordes and the strength to kill tanks. DP is the only way to augment shooting on more then 1 unit, but cost an arm and a leg.

The best situation I could see for an army that looks like...1 big blob in the middle of Rubrics/SOT then Exalted Sorcs or ahriman near them to give prescience. DP or 2 to get the 2+ rerollable. Then spend the rest of your points on Tzzangors in Rhinos.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 03:03:52


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Somewhere

I have been reading bat reps of 1000 sons players who have been playing 8th.

Rubrics it seems have a lot of versatility and uses now. I think it really depends upon the rest of the list though I am thinking mixed weapons myself. Squad of 10 or 12 with Soul Reaper and a couple flamers for split fire, overwatch and over all versatility. Though other units of varying size and weapon load outs, who you are fighting etc will have a direct effect.

I hear smiting is doing some good work. I expect a handful of icons will help to add up MW and it may seem nonexistent though I hear is adding up over time from people who have had multiple games so we shall see. Also is there any rules that says Smite cannot be cast in cc? I do not see one.

Dark Hereticus though generic serves us just fine for now, inho until possible new lore comes out, artifacts etc... Targetable smite, move shenanigans and divination buff is right up our alley, if not a not boring as it is not unique.

As time goes on I thing we will see lots of diverse lists that are effective for 1k sons. My one opinion though and my divination is not great.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/20-x-chaos-space-marines-x/

Check out this thread to see reports from 1k sons players sharing their recent experiences also. 1st Bat rep starts about page 27 or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did not see who won First Blood though between DA and 1k sons.

Is there a write up for this that anyone knows of?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/07 15:21:08


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Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 Skerr wrote:
I have been reading bat reps of 1000 sons players who have been playing 8th.

Rubrics it seems have a lot of versatility and uses now. I think it really depends upon the rest of the list though I am thinking mixed weapons myself. Squad of 10 or 12 with Soul Reaper and a couple flamers for split fire, overwatch and over all versatility. Though other units of varying size and weapon load outs, who you are fighting etc will have a direct effect.

I hear smiting is doing some good work. I expect a handful of icons will help to add up MW and it may seem nonexistent though I hear is adding up over time from people who have had multiple games so we shall see. Also is there any rules that says Smite cannot be cast in cc? I do not see one.

Dark Hereticus though generic serves us just fine for now, inho until possible new lore comes out, artifacts etc... Targetable smite, move shenanigans and divination buff is right up our alley, if not a not boring as it is not unique.

As time goes on I thing we will see lots of diverse lists that are effective for 1k sons. My one opinion though and my divination is not great.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/20-x-chaos-space-marines-x/

Check out this thread to see reports from 1k sons players sharing their recent experiences also. 1st Bat rep starts about page 27 or so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did not see who won First Blood though between DA and 1k sons.

Is there a write up for this that anyone knows of?


1 bat rep from from 1 guy that only talks about how he did against 1 elite army is not enough. He was also apparently playing against people that had no clue what the rules were. Multiple overwatchs? Thats something that most players would know not to mention never charge a unit with flamers. Which was a thing that they did. Dosent talk about then end result of the game at all. Just says 4 AS and the big guys add up yeah to 10 whats your point? 10 wounds from 500 points of models? Thats supposed to impress me? Sorry, unless your opponet sucks those are going to go on things your enemy want them to which means your 500 points will be killing 50-70 points of models a turn. Shooting phase comes after psychic phase so your not landing any smite on anything good until turn 3 at least. Then i finally see his list 1 unit of rubrics 3 units of SOT and a feth ton of Daemons. Well, of TS are super amazing awesome why did he cut his forces down to 1 unit of rubrics?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/08 03:32:11


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Somewhere

Seems i read more than that though perhaps i am wrong. It seems a resource of experience which i am sure we will see more of here and there as days go by. If you have experiences please share them. If not read the experiences of others. Continue to comment what you like and how you like though I find a lot of positive discussion there if folks are into that.

I have no real interest in weather you are impressed or not. That seems odd you would ask me and your tone seems unnecessarily antagonistic. If I did something to offend you I apologize though not sure what it would be. If I am off the mark I will move on and continue posting om this topic.

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2017/06/08 04:35:21


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Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 Skerr wrote:
Seems i read more than that though perhaps i am wrong. It seems a resource of experience which i am sure we will see more of here and there as days go by. If you have experiences please share them. If not read the experiences of others. Continue to comment what you like and how you like though I find a lot of positive discussion there if folks are into that.

I have no real interest in weather you are impressed or not. That seems odd you would ask me and your tone seems unnecessarily antagonistic. If I did something to offend you I apologize though not sure what it would be. If I am off the mark I will move on and continue posting on this topic.


I read more then that as well, it's what im not reading that worries me. If you want a resourse for experiance watch videos dont get one subjectuve take on a game. Do not read to much into my tone as I have none when I am writing, nor when I speak usually.

When I ask "should I be impressed?" its a retorcial question should 500 points of models be putting out 10 wounds per turn. Im trying to get you to think, thats it. Personally 10 wounds on things that my enemy chooses is not a good deal to me. If I had a choise it would be on Tzzangors or Cultists and you can bet as people figure out that bringing at least some chaff models is going to be necessary the performance will decrease.

If you really want to use a pure Thousand Sons army avoid Rubrics, use Tzzangors to fill troops choices. Make sure you get at least 6 CP and save them for perils rolls. HQ choices take Ahriman on a disk and 2 DP with Malefic Talons.

3 Tzzangors, 2 SOT, Ahriman, and 2 DP comes to ~1150

You have Chaff if you need it. Everything is good in CC. The DP dont pay extra for spell castings they cant use and augment any unit that gets prescience to a 95% hit ratio. In a pinch the DPs can take out a T8 unit with 12 wounds and a 3+ save in 1 turn. If they dont do it Ahriman can finish it off. Each SOT will put out 10 round at 24 inchs and 20 at 12 inchs while retaining the ability to take advantage of cover fairly easily.

I couldn't tell you the best anti tank options right now, after this weekend, i should have a better idea.

 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Somewhere

Thanks for explaining, I have always enjoyed getting insight from your posts on previous 1k sons threads. You have a lot of good things to say in regards to efficiently and use of the army and sometimes I think you come off in a negative way. Though you are right we sometimes project emotions that are not there when we read others comments.

Admittedly I read your question as arrogant not rhetorical and apologize for that. The link was for everyone and I think the 1 to 2 guys who have had a handful of games might be something others here would be interested in. Though I enjoy reading them and asking questions I may not have agreed with all their tactics and decisions though it is still exciting to me to see. What we don't see is great as well as I also have asked them "why not Tzaangors?". Yhey do not seem to be getting a lot of play in those games and I think they are a great unit. The passionate K sons players on b&c are just excited the Rubrics are better and better priced and are testing them out in various ways.
I would have like to see the warherd bonus of run and charge incorporated though I am happy with the overall buff of the goat bird men.

I also need to brush up on detachments, cps etc... and look forward to having the books.

I saw a battle report last night on yt, 1k sons vs imperium 8th ed.
Lesson from that, don't move Magnus out in the middle of the battle field like it's 7th edition and leave your thinly deployed army behind you thinking you will reck face like old times. The imperium was some assassin's, Diego?, a super heavy and a vanguard detachment with 3 of those chicken walker things and it went bad with Maggie being surrounded and taking like 14 wounds round 1. He died shortly after that and I skimmed through the rest to see 1k sons concede. Really need to have some support for Maggie and make good use of that Primarch of the 1000 sons ability.


Thanks for taking the time to respond and clarify.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/08 21:14:41


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Made in us
Been Around the Block




Saying that Rubrics or Scarab Terminators should not be taken is basically saying don't play Thousand Sons to me. Demon Princes, Ahriman, and Tzangors do not make for an interesting list. So, rather than shutting down conversation by saying that these units should not be taken, perhaps we can talk about how they can be most effective? None of us have enough experience to say one way or the other that something should be taken out of a list.

Personally, I'm not interested in taking units that do not fit within the army list options for Thousand Sons. I play with very competitive players and I plan on trying out all the options available to see which is the most effective, what is the most fun and what looks the coolest to me. Feel free to toss out Rubrics and Magnus if you like, that's not what I plan on doing.
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Somewhere

I have yet to play my first game though I am thinking 2 ten man rubs in rhino, 2 5 man SOTS, some goats to screen with a predator, some spawn and maybe Heldrake as a base.

HQs I am on the fence though I do plan on buying Magnus now as I like the synergy he has w ksons now. I am still unsure if HQs on disc lose the benefit of their Aura buff if their keyword changes to deamon. Consensus seems to be that auras buff the character offering it ( have not read rules yet.)

I still like soul reapers and 1 or 2 flamers. I like the Idea of teleoporting SOTs being warp timed and charging. I love that power sword ls got ap -3, am more likely to charge and perhaps take a heavy flamer. Missiles seems a given on the SOTS.

Also gonna rock Icons for fun. I don't play in an overly competitive group, just bros I grew up playing dnd with and though we like to win we also like to field models we think are cool so our lists may not be competitive compared to others. My group is more of a beer and pretzel crowd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/08 23:32:06


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Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





 gummyofallbears wrote:
Hey everyone, I recently took the plunge (or should I say Impulse buy) on some thousand sons, specifically the exalted sorcerers kit and two boxes of rubric marines. I built both squads with the rotor cannons and bolters.

What combinations do you guys think is good for pure Thousand Sons? What is their main strength? Are they even playable as mono Tsons? thoughts? Comments? Critiques?


SOT are good worth their points by far espically since they can start eating thier points back turn 1.

Rubrics are too expensive with flamers which is the only way the really go up in effectiveness. Of you want to bring them min squads with 2-3 flamers each double up on Rhinos dump them out near the enemy lines and wreak some havoc before they die.

You need to open up to Tzzangors. Mortal Wounds are a thing now, and they dont care how durable you are.

Magnus needs a screen of troops to protectec him from plasma and melta shots other wise he will die in the first couple turns. Move him out smite, gaze, warp time, move him back behind the line, dont leave him out there. The exception is when youe enemy is charging up a Land Raider or something else that is super expensive. Hes a Glass Cannon he can kill a Land Raider in 1 turn no problem. Always reroll the lower of the two numbers on his smite it gives you like a 66% chance for 2d6 mortal wounds. Bubble wrap him. Bubble wrap him. Bubble wrap him. Dont care what you use but dont let DS plasma or melta kill him. His big flaw us that you cant keep long range stuff from hurting him. 3 Vanquisher Cannons will make short work of him. Stuff like that needs to be a priority.

TL;DR Magnus is a glass cannon. Build the army around keepimg him alive and you might be able to win.


 
   
Made in us
Screeching Screamer of Tzeentch





Georgia

I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes
   
Made in ca
Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch




Would you guys recommend the magma cutters or lasher tendrils for the Maulerfiend? The cutters have a really nice stat line but I worry they might be hard to use in practice.
   
Made in ca
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Arachnofiend wrote:
Would you guys recommend the magma cutters or lasher tendrils for the Maulerfiend? The cutters have a really nice stat line but I worry they might be hard to use in practice.


Depends on what you want to do with the Maulerfiend, going after vehicles take the cutters, Infantry the problem Lasher Tendrils.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 10:24:31


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Somewhere

i agree that the flamer are expensive though I also think being better than your average flamer I am inclined to test drive a couple in each unit. I do like the idea of a small group of flamer rubes joy riding in a rhino. Brings back memories of flamer chosen joy riding.

What is really interesting is deepening upon the mission foot slogging might be a sound tactic or might night.

I am looking at a mobile force applying pressure from different areas at once in perhaps a threat overwhelm. Not sure if that will work. Not if I would kit any Sorcerers on disc to keep up, probably with this force though I still wonder if the ES losing the infantry keyword means he loses his buff. I read somewhere it was confirmed in rules that characters benefit form their own buff though if we lose the infantry keyword we need clarity on. Maggie would go nice to offer his buff and keep up with rhinos and any support heavies, probably Preds and or Helbrutes in my case as i dont own any fiends and they would be low on my want list.

I am inclined to make my list mostly mobile with Rhinos, teleporting SOTs.

Tzangoor rhinos might be good as well, plus I like to custom make tank topper. I made a bunch of turrents using the snap fit chosen from DV and wanted to do the same with Tzangoor Torsos maybe waiving a Tzeentch banner.

However I like a foot slogging force as well, with all is dust, good terrain placement, utilizing character buffs and long range support it could work depending upon your opponent, the mission etc...

Frontline Gaming did a QaA on their experience play testing and said the game becomes really fun with well placed terrain and some that blocks LOS, though that was their experiences. Of course that has always been my experience in any edition, lol. Though that tells me that terrain is very important in this edition.

Tzangors get the 1 to advance or charge with an instrument, may not seem like a lot but every bit helps. I like the Relic hunters, makes me want to bum rush a mob of goat birds into characters looking for "shiny preciouses"

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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge





Boulder, Colorado

My current list 2k list, I will probably get to play with it sunday.

Ahriman on a disk

Sorcerer on a disk

Lord of Change with a rod of change

Demon prince with 2 malefic talons and wings

rubric squad with flamers in a rhino x2

2x maulerfiends with lasher tendrils

Helldrake with a baleflamer.

Its basically all that I own for Ksons/chaos, but hopefully its fast and fun, the maulerfiends and helldrake is thrown into the opponents face, the maulerfiends kill anything and the helldrake snipes a character and draws fire.

It doesn't seem there is a real reason not to take Ahriman, he is only 30 points more than a regular sorcerer on a disk, and he can cast an extra power, adds one to his rolls for casting and denying, and his staff is better







   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not sure what the point is of the other sorcerer?
   
Made in us
Screeching Screamer of Tzeentch





Georgia

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?


I was thinking two 10 man squads with soul reaper cannons supported by two sorcerers on foot and an exalted on disk. Then tzaanagors and spawn for screening and tying up dangerous units. And probably forgefiends and helbrutes for ranged support. I figure with warp time I can counteract the rubrics slow movement and be fairly reactive to threats.
   
Made in ca
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Its everything he owns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?


I was thinking two 10 man squads with soul reaper cannons supported by two sorcerers on foot and an exalted on disk. Then tzaanagors and spawn for screening and tying up dangerous units. And probably forgefiends and helbrutes for ranged support. I figure with warp time I can counteract the rubrics slow movement and be fairly reactive to threats.


That should do alright just make sure your target priority is on the up and up. Big Guns and multi damage kill Rubrics fast(er then small arms) so try to take them out first. what are you bringing on the Forgefiends?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/09 22:45:12


 
   
Made in us
Screeching Screamer of Tzeentch





Georgia

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Its everything he owns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 YoungSolomon wrote:
I'm really pumped to get a game in with the new rules. For you guys that have played a few games in 8th do you think a footslogging Thousand Sons list is viable, or are rhinos still mandatory for rubrics? I was playing with the idea of a rubric and sorcerer bubble marching up field screened by tzaanagors\spawn and supported by walkers like forgefiends and helbrutes


What size units were you thinking for the Rubrics?


I was thinking two 10 man squads with soul reaper cannons supported by two sorcerers on foot and an exalted on disk. Then tzaanagors and spawn for screening and tying up dangerous units. And probably forgefiends and helbrutes for ranged support. I figure with warp time I can counteract the rubrics slow movement and be fairly reactive to threats.


That should do alright just make sure your target priority is on the up and up. Big Guns and multi damage kill Rubrics fast(er then small arms) so try to take them out first. what are you bringing on the Forgefiends?


Most likely just Hades autocannons for the high rate of fire, maybe with the mouth plasma cannon depending on points. Blast weapons seem less reliable this edition but a forgefiend with three cannons could potentially cause some serious damage.
   
 
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