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sfshilo wrote: Guys CSM daemon units do not have the right faction and this was ruled on by the "naming a regiment blood angels" nonsense in the developer guide.
Daemon in CSM is a keyword not a faction keyword so they don't mix unless GW puts out a specific FAQ that says so...
Spoiler:
Q: If I can choose a keyword for a unit, such as
<Regiment> for Astra Militarum, could I choose
that keyword to be, for example ‘Blood Angels’ or
‘Death Guard’?
A: No.
In the example above, ‘Blood Angels’ is a Chapter of the Adeptus
Astartes and ‘Death Guard’ is a Legion of the Heretic Astartes
– neither of which are Regiments of the Astra Militarum.
Q: If I create an Astra Militarum Regiment of my own
and name them, for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’,
and I then also create an Adeptus Astartes Chapter of
my own choosing, and also call them the ‘Emperor’s
Finest’, do the abilities that work on the <Regiment>
and/or <Chapter> keywords now work on both the
Astra Militarum and Adeptus Astartes units?
A: No.
The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own
creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable
players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect
what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions
on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment.
Both of those examples are clear cases were people are trying to game the system.
Mark of Chaos is written as "you simply replace the <Mark of Chaos> keyword in every instance on that unit's datasheet with one of the following : Khorne, Tzeentch Nurlge or Slaanesh.
The FAQ is designed to prevent someone from naming their <Legion> Nurgle giving these keywords for a warp talon : Chaos, Slaanesh, Heretic Astartes, Nurgle, Infantry, Daemon, Jump Pack, Fly, Warp Talons
The FAQ would not let a person claim the benefits from both a herald of Nurgle and Herald of Slaanesh. (duh) In this case, they would only have the first keyword from the <Mark of Chaos> apply.
The reason is that <Legion> is a variable that can have any input associated with it. <Mark of Chaos> is a radio button that only has 4 settings.
The RoI seems pretty clear to me.
I'll forward this to the ITC to add to the questions to be FAQed.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/06/26 17:44:49
It's important to stop thinking of your army as CSM, but overall as Chaos. You can throw a renegade knight into your army with no problem at all.
In this regard, Chaos has a lot of options -- the second largest selection in the game.
As an old 2nd and 3rd edition player, it seemed weird to me coming back in that they were split in the first place.
Thinking if I do get buying any new stuff for Chaos it'll be a little Start Collecting Khorne Daemons set. Herald looks beefy and like the option for putting him on the Thingy or running it as the Other Slightly Different Thingy. Bloodletters to summon and a couple of those lovely looking new Juggernauts will be nice.
I think you're off the mark and simply attached to particular units, which is never going to work out because what is good switches from edition to edition.
Vanilla CSMs aren't very good, but the codex more broadly is full of very strong units. Try out a game with a mix on any of the following:
Khorne berserkers, preds, defilers, renegade knights, havocks, scarab termies, daemon princes, hellturkies, daemonettes(+masque and herald), rapier weapon batteries, fire raptors and heck even rhinos. All of them range from some of the best units out there to very good units.
If you want to focus on possessed, oblits, csms or mutilators....I guess have a day? If that's what your army looks like, then the codex doesn't favor you. But I (and plenty of other folks) actually think chaos is upper middle and maybe even top tier for the first time in a decade.
SilverAlien wrote: Generally it's not any worse than post legion except for DG and I assume tsons. Tsons is even fairly workable if you rely on demonic support to help out (such as getting an actual chaff unit).
The biggest advantage over normal space marines is the relative ease with which we can use deepstriking. The Khorne icon of wrath and warptime can both make charging out of deepstrike much more likely and chaos can actually manage deepstrike melta without needing drop pods thanks to raptors/terminators (even without the melta damage reroll this is nice). Even rapid fire plasma/inferno combi bolters can really leave an impact.
The cult units are also pretty nice. Noise marines are good for clearing normal infantry, zerkers are brutal in combat. Rubrics... well they need to be fielded in large units to avoid the sorcerer tax (and get soulreapers). If you do that, the unit is suddenly more vulnerable to morale. Plague marines are just too expensive.
The biggest issue so far is the lack of snipers which really hurts against some armies. The only removal options are deepstriking, units with fly, and psychic powers (infernal gaze from CSM and bolt of change from demons). None of these options are very good sadly, but they are there.
The other issue with a "pure" CSM army is the lack of affordable chaff. Cultists are weirdly overpriced compared to what other armies can field. On the other hand, brimstone horrors are cheap, tough, and can be more dangerous than you might think, filling this niche rather nicely.
Oh and demon princes are apparently made of win from what I hear. Haven't tested them out yet.
Just take some Mutant Rabble. 4 points per model, 50 models max per unit. 200 points for 50 models. Sure they will die by the handfuls but with an Enforcer they'll live a while. Renegades and Heretics may not be good on their own but as support for CSM they are awesome for filling in slots.
Something to remember a detachment does not need to have all matching faction keywords, just one.
You can (and should) build a multi-legion/deamon/knight list within 1 detachment. The only thing you lose out on are the buffing abilities. you can take havocs at no disadvantage in a thousand sons list they just won't have the Thousand sons keyword. Need something to deal with chaff? One khorne berserker squad please.
Kinda sucks that possesed and basic CSM are still bad tough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 19:57:33
drakerocket wrote: If you want to focus on possessed, oblits, csms or mutilators....I guess have a day? If that's what your army looks like, then the codex doesn't favor you. But I (and plenty of other folks) actually think chaos is upper middle and maybe even top tier for the first time in a decade.
Have you tried them out in play? I'm just curious. Often units look 'ok' on paper -- like nurglings, but play out much more effectively.
I've not tried out oblits or CSMs yet, and I'm honestly curious as to your experiences.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Earth127 wrote: Kinda sucks that possesed and basic CSM are still bad tough.
I'm actually going to give possessed a fair shake. If you have a herald nearby they are STR 6. They can benfit from the tallymaster. You can transport them in a rhino.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 20:04:35
Someone mentioned this to me, but deep strike + warptime combo virtually guarantees deep strike assaults whenever you want them. Magnus is apparently pretty great too what with his smite spam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/26 20:06:22
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
andysonic1 wrote: Just take some Mutant Rabble. 4 points per model, 50 models max per unit. 200 points for 50 models. Sure they will die by the handfuls but with an Enforcer they'll live a while. Renegades and Heretics may not be good on their own but as support for CSM they are awesome for filling in slots.
Honestly... brimstone horrors are probably better. Mutant rabble are better than default cultists price wise, but still a direct downgrade compared to the chaff imperium can field.
DaPino wrote: As someone put it nicely: Water is wet, fire is hot, Chaos space marines still suck.
I've got to give GW props though, there're a lot of models already that I don't intend on getting off my shelve anymore until a codex drops and I'm looking at buying laspreds instead.
Played five games last week as Death Guard - didn't win a single one.
Two just weren't even close (vs. Necron silver tide and Cawl/Mechanicum with triple-phos kastellans).
Just not even comparable in power.
Plague Marines cost too much, terminators are ok but need to be melta-cide or have a sorcerer in termie armour to cast warptime. Heldrake did work some games but others just died fast (two is better, but they are a bit expensive). Helbrute is slow, and gets negs to hit when moving (duh). Bikers are ok, bit expensive again, but they can fire special and combi-bolters (and have bolt pistols for cc - which can switch out for chainswords).
Oblits are... ok, being able to DS in is good, but when you roll three 1's on the D3's for the turns shooting you know it's gonna go bad for you.
Compare - double kastellan with triple heavy phos, 220 pts. 12W T7 3+, puts out 36 shots S6 AP-1 D1 if you stay still. Add cawl nearby for re-rolls to hit(!)
oblits, 195 points. 9W T4 2+, puts out 6 shots S6+D3, AP D3, D D3.
Now tell me this game is balanced.
It's not that chaos is weak.
Cawl is OP. All characters with blanket reroll-auras need to have their points cost increased fairly significantly.
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
Cawl is OP. All characters with blanket reroll-auras need to have their points cost increased fairly significantly.
Well first off, he was playing Death Guard. Death Guard is arguably the weakest chaos faction currently, as it lacks any of the things that makes chaos good currently in return for... nothing, Death guard will likely overtake tsons once they get terminators, but as it stands he is correct, they are utter garbage across the board.
Chaos as whole is also... not strong. It is probably mid tier at best. Unified chaos might be top tier. Maybe. But that's gonna be mostly demons with a little CSM support.
Cawl is OP. All characters with blanket reroll-auras need to have their points cost increased fairly significantly.
Well first off, he was playing Death Guard. Death Guard is arguably the weakest chaos faction currently, as it lacks any of the things that makes chaos good currently in return for... nothing, Death guard will likely overtake tsons once they get terminators, but as it stands he is correct, they are utter garbage across the board.
Chaos as whole is also... not strong. It is probably mid tier at best. Unified chaos might be top tier. Maybe. But that's gonna be mostly demons with a little CSM support.
IMO, Chaos have an enormous secret weapon in their summoning rituals, and a single week isn't enough time to figure out how to properly use them.
I think mixed CSM/Chaos Daemons armies will prove to be exceptionally powerful unless your opponent brings enough snipers to make JFK roll in his grave.
Wake. Rise. Destroy. Conquer.
We have done so once. We will do so again.
I think you're off the mark and simply attached to particular units, which is never going to work out because what is good switches from edition to edition.
Vanilla CSMs aren't very good, but the codex more broadly is full of very strong units. Try out a game with a mix on any of the following:
Khorne berserkers, preds, defilers, renegade knights, havocks, scarab termies, daemon princes, hellturkies, daemonettes(+masque and herald), rapier weapon batteries, fire raptors and heck even rhinos. All of them range from some of the best units out there to very good units.
If you want to focus on possessed, oblits, csms or mutilators....I guess have a day? If that's what your army looks like, then the codex doesn't favor you. But I (and plenty of other folks) actually think chaos is upper middle and maybe even top tier for the first time in a decade.
It isn't clear who you're replying to, but since I posted immediately before you:
I'm definitely glad I have some Berserkers. Gonna stick em in a Rhino and keep going til the tracks are stuck with corpses, then disembark and choppy choppy. Looks like fun. I've a very mixed Havoc squad that's definitely getting called up too. Once I paint them. When I read that they've gotten around to editing the Renegades and Heretics list I'll probably stick those guys in as troops choices, but until then I'm okay using regular CSM as mandatory troops choice, unless I proxy them as Cultists or get that Start Collecting Khorne Daemons box for the Bloodletters.
I can see the merit in a lot of Chaos units. It's just I'm quite fluff-focussed and feel that right now a lot of the stuff we've got isn't really doing justice to that fluff. I suppose I can "Counts As" some of my customised things easy enough, but looking through the DE list, their Combat Drugs and Power From Pain rules are more in line with the kind of thing I'd have liked to see in the Chaos list. Then again, for all the good of the Drukhari, at least your average CSM isn't going to turn up to a fight all kitted out for close combat and somehow forget that they're only T3. So at least we have that going for us.
Arandmoor wrote: IMO, Chaos have an enormous secret weapon in their summoning rituals, and a single week isn't enough time to figure out how to properly use them.
I think mixed CSM/Chaos Daemons armies will prove to be exceptionally powerful unless your opponent brings enough snipers to make JFK roll in his grave.
The problem is people have already identified the many shortcomings of the ability. It is a thoroughly mediocre ability.
It isn't versatile. It's deepstrike... but within 12" of a character that didn't move. That also has to be of the same God. With a random value based on the fairly inflexible power level. That you still have to pay for.
Can you use it to list tailor mid game? Not really, each character will have a small pool of potential choices further limited by the random die. Not to mention the majority of choices will be varying flavors of melee anti infantry, particularly if you don't roll well. You don't even gain the tactical benefits of deepstrike.
The potential isn't really there. It's unreliable, weak, and doesn't even give you much of a toolbox.
Personally? My overall opinion is that Chaos got interesting. For the first time in 6 years we get to have mixed builds. Things you wouldn't have even considered before are actually quite interesting.
Plus there's a lot of subtle differences I have noticed.
The normal CSM squad actually has the option to take 2 Heavy Weapons in a 10 man squad.
Fabius Bile has become a universal buffer of sorts - a gamble but capable of augmenting far more units than he was before - including Terminators, Obliterators, Raptors and Warp Talons.
Princes have a lot more utility - buffing both Daemons and their respective Legion.
Plus the fact we're very broad as a faction - yes, I'm one of those who is displeased that his Death Guard have ltierally had half their numbers trimmed and culled but until we see anything more factions are largely meh.
Right now I'm just playing with ideas for lists. Fabius Bile running around with a whole lot of Death Guard -buffed Poxwalkers are quite amusing when also affected by Typhus.
