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If you ever use power level you're playing the wrong game IMHO. You're more suited for Hello Kitty Online than the GrimDark 41st Millennium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
I have yet to find a reason not to play power level. As long as you understand how power levels are calculated and don't short change yourself, it's worked fine - haven't had a game yet where it made any kind of difference.

Free Power Fists on Everything is a pretty good reason.

Points. I've played a game of PL, and it wasn't terrible, but honestly, finagling the last few PL is harder than the last few points. Because with points, you can add an upgrade here, or drop one there, but PL deals with entire units.

 Elbows wrote:
And here we see more of the subtle insults Well done guys.

Saying "basic math isn't hard" is more of a statement than a subtle insult.

I do find it quite amusing however that some people seem to have a genuinely hard time making lists with points now in 8th all of a sudden. It's not like it's changed that drastically since all the previous editions...

It has been made more annoying to make points, I'll agree to that. It's not difficult, just a little more time consuming than it used to be, which is annoying to me.

I try to make my lists compatible for both so 2k and under 100pl.

On the whole though I say points. I can abuse PL and get several hundred points more worth of gear in some lists and armies. Other armies like tyranids get oddly punished with PLs.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It has been made more annoying to make points, I'll agree to that. It's not difficult, just a little more time consuming than it used to be, which is annoying to me.

A (genuinely) friendly tip to those who hasn't done it; Grab a pencil (not a pen), and start adding pointvalues to units and unit-upgrades on the relevant unit-entry in your Index.
It will take about half an hour, but it's well worth the time, since now you no longer have to flip back and forth in the Index, and it will save you time in the long run.

Since you wrote it down with a pencil and not a pen, you can also erase (and change) what you wrote down, should anything change for your army in a FAQ or Errata.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
And here we see more of the subtle insults Well done guys.

Saying "basic math isn't hard" is more of a statement than a subtle insult.

I do find it quite amusing however that some people seem to have a genuinely hard time making lists with points now in 8th all of a sudden. It's not like it's changed that drastically since all the previous editions...

Less hard more very annoying. I'm constantly changing lists because of some random wargear I missed that costs points or because something that should be free has a cost for no reason. As well instead of working on 5x 17 for a unit now it's 5x17 and 5x3 and 5x4 because reasons.

PL make for faster army building and the games I've played both ways have made no difference in balance so why not go for easy build and easy list checking? must be a lot of masochists on this forum.

I have one club that uses power levels that I attend, and two others that use points.

I am fine with both, to be frank. Each one seems pretty balanced on the whole of things.

In my group we play points only, it just seems that some armies get more than others with power levels. So points seem more balanced. But I think power levels are great if you get in an impulsive game and don't have time to make a point list..

Points all day errday.

PL is like a hammer for list building, points are a scalpel. I like the granularity of being able to drop a single guant to get some upgrades elsewhere. I also dislike that PL doesn't take upgrades into account. You could argue that it doesn't make a difference but if I decide to give my 20 genestealers adrenal sacs and toxin sacs that 100pts I have to spend on it vs zero in power level. Stuff like that adds up.

Raptor Pro Tip: Points are the same as power levels. You just add 20 power level for a power fist instead of 0.

Points. I don't get this "PL makes for faster army building". Is there really a big difference between 5 and 10 minutes? I also heard (and actually witnessed that 2 times) PL can lead to serious imbalances, like one army being ~200 pts weaker than the other. Plus, I like playing with points - adding or removing one in order to fit something else, etc.

T-Rex Pro Tip: unit wargear is accounted for when determining PL cost, that's why Wraithguard are over 10PL

 supreme overlord wrote:
T-Rex Pro Tip: unit wargear is accounted for when determining PL cost, that's why Wraithguard are over 10PL

The vast majority of units are simply default cost (as in base+default wargear)/20. The ones that aren't can be counted on one hand. Wraithguard and Tau Commanders are the only ones I know of that buck the trend.

PL is what is popular at my club.

I also heard (and actually witnessed that 2 times) PL can lead to serious imbalances, like one army being ~200 pts weaker than the other.

I also heard at several tournament events now that points balance is a joke and that the game can be busted with points as well.

I like PL, but I think it still needs a bit of work.

Not too much. Just a bit.

Some of the more expensive options need to be converted into PL rather than being assumed to be standard. Basically, it needs a tad more granularity than it has, but nothing like "double all PL values" like I've seen suggested in a few different places.

Basically, any option you can take that costs 20 or more points should be converted to PL, and not counted towards the unit's base PL. Anything 10 or less, should simply be free unless the math is obvious and easy.

For example, Space Marine Devastators should be 5 pl for 5 models with up to four heavy bolters (65 pts for the marines + 40 pts for 4 heavy bolters). Adding another 5 models should be +3 pl. Exchanging up to four heavy bolters for alternate heavy weapons should be +3 pl because the worst case scenario is four lascannons (100 pts) minus the cost of the four heavy bolters (40 pts) they already paid for.

After that the only other option that could really be taken that might make a difference is a powerfist on the sergeant. In this system it would cost another +1 pl because it's 20 points for the fist.

Plasma pistol? Not enough points to make a real difference.

They both work fine.

How many infernus pistols does my opponent want to see? 40? Then power level. 3? Then points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
T-Rex Pro Tip: unit wargear is accounted for when determining PL cost, that's why Wraithguard are over 10PL

The vast majority of units are simply default cost (as in base+default wargear)/20. The ones that aren't can be counted on one hand. Wraithguard and Tau Commanders are the only ones I know of that buck the trend.

That's not true at all. From my army alone for things that buck that trend: (Default Points / PL x 20)


Company Commander (30/60), Tank Commander (207/260), Master of Ordnance (38/40), Platoon Commander (20/40), Command Squad (24/60), Infantry Squad (40/60), Special Weapons Squad (24/60), Heavy Weapons Squad (12/60), Veterans (60/120), Rough Riders (50/60), Scout Sentinel (35/40), Armoured Sentinels (40/60), Chimera (93/100), Taurox (85/80), Banewolf (96/100), Devil Dog (116/100), Basilisk (108/120), Hydra (123/120), Wyvern (93/100), Manticore (133/140), Deathstrike (163/180), Leman Russ (162/220), Demolisher (172/240), Baneblade (501/600), Banehammer (426/520), Banesword (406/500), Doomhammer (436/520), Hellhammer (521/620), Shadowsword (446/540), Stormlord (432/540), Stormsword (406/500).

That's everything but Conscripts and Hellhounds.

The only three things to really consider with power level (which are simple and frequently dismissed or ignored)

1) You can't convert points level into power level - doesn't work. Doesn't stop people from trying this and then saying "omg, power is broken!"

2) Thus far it seems power level assumes you're taking 70% of your wargear options. Maybe not going full bore, but you're not shorting yourself. Here I absolutely agree if you like to run dirt cheap gribblies, you're hurting yourself with power level. I fully understand that if your play style is max units with minimum wargear the power level is a poor choice for you.

3) You can short yourself by taking odd numbers of models. Again, not very difficult to avoid, but it's constantly used as an example of how broken power levels are. Simple. Take in blocks which work with the power levels. Not difficult.

Our entire group has been playing with power levels with no major issues - but that's also because we agree not to abuse it. No one runs every single vehicle upgrade on their Eldar tanks, for example. Every Chaos Rhino isn't fitted with every possible weapon, havoc launcher, etc. Thus far the games have been fine.

Once again we return to the odd 40K driven "I must play someone if they ask...for my honor!" kind of reasoning. If somoene is abusing an army list or a power level, or a codex, etc...why even play that person? I see a lot of responses like BaconCatBug's "well, everybody with power fists". If you have an opponent who you think is cheesing the game - why even play? At that point power or points is irrelevant, that person's interests in the game are different than mine - setting up a boring or unenjoyable experience. Skip em.

At least with guard, the vast majority of the upgrades aren't things you'd normally take. How often do people take a power axe and voxcaster in infantry? The meltagun is already too much more expensive compared to the plasmagun, but now that's getting counted against you. Powerfists on scions? I don't even take the heavy flamers on my vehicles. There's a lot of stuff I'm overpaying for that way.

I doubt guard is the only army like that.

 Elbows wrote:
The only three things to really consider with power level (which are simple and frequently dismissed or ignored)

1) You can't convert points level into power level - doesn't work. Doesn't stop people from trying this and then saying "omg, power is broken!"

2) Thus far it seems power level assumes you're taking 70% of your wargear options. Maybe not going full bore, but you're not shorting yourself. Here I absolutely agree if you like to run dirt cheap gribblies, you're hurting yourself with power level. I fully understand that if your play style is max units with minimum wargear the power level is a poor choice for you.

3) You can short yourself by taking odd numbers of models. Again, not very difficult to avoid, but it's constantly used as an example of how broken power levels are. Simple. Take in blocks which work with the power levels. Not difficult.

Our entire group has been playing with power levels with no major issues - but that's also because we agree not to abuse it. No one runs every single vehicle upgrade on their Eldar tanks, for example. Every Chaos Rhino isn't fitted with every possible weapon, havoc launcher, etc. Thus far the games have been fine.

Once again we return to the odd 40K driven "I must play someone if they ask...for my honor!" kind of reasoning. If somoene is abusing an army list or a power level, or a codex, etc...why even play that person? I see a lot of responses like BaconCatBug's "well, everybody with power fists". If you have an opponent who you think is cheesing the game - why even play? At that point power or points is irrelevant, that person's interests in the game are different than mine - setting up a boring or unenjoyable experience. Skip em.

Right, but that is why it (as some people have suggested elsewhere) fails at balance for a tournament. You need to have people with the same mentality of purposefully not cheesing the system. TO some extent this is true with points as well.

So IME it works great for casual games where everyone just brings what they would bring if it were a points game (more or less), less so if you actually build to min-max for power level.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:
At least with guard, the vast majority of the upgrades aren't things you'd normally take. How often do people take a power axe and voxcaster in infantry? The meltagun is already too much more expensive compared to the plasmagun, but now that's getting counted against you. Powerfists on scions? I don't even take the heavy flamers on my vehicles. There's a lot of stuff I'm overpaying for that way.

I doubt guard is the only army like that.

Very true PL penalizes squads that have less useful upgrades, especially if you don't use them.

I've used both.

The main reason I use points is when I want to play with units that are somewhere between maxed out and minimum sized. I have found I no longer trust my opponents to have added their lists up correctly. I know in my case I've found three major errors in my list and I was being very careful.

Power Level removes that worry since some unbalance is built in. But the real question is how much does that imbalance really matter? We know the points aren't correct or worse the value of a unit/wargear fluctuates depending on opponents. Can points be accurate enough to make a different in the long run?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I've used both.

The main reason I use points is when I want to play with units that are somewhere between maxed out and minimum sized. I have found I no longer trust my opponents to have added their lists up correctly. I know in my case I've found three major errors in my list and I was being very careful.

Power Level removes that worry since some unbalance is built in. But the real question is how much does that imbalance really matter? We know the points aren't correct or worse the value of a unit/wargear fluctuates depending on opponents. Can points be accurate enough to make a different in the long run?

By that logic you should only ever play 500pts vs 4000pts

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old timer telling you you're doing it wrong and having badwrongfun....

If you are using Power Rating in Matched Play and expecting it to be balanced you are Doing It Wrong. It's not what it's for. Yeah, you *can* use Power Rating for that if you want, no problem. But note that in the rulebook it suggests that alternative method last, after 'same number of units' or using the wounds total. It won't produce a finely balanced game. It's not supposed to. If you're playing Matched Play points are the only way you're going to balance things properly.

Power Rating is just another tool, mostly for Open and Narrative play. Notice how it only really turns up in those scenarios?

And to the offensive chap telling us we're playing the wrong game and to go play Hello Kitty... 40k is about more than just matched play and proving who is better at toy soldiers. This edition in particular. It's refreshing that the core rulebook now has the tools and guidance to support those types of game that haven't seen the limelight in 6 editions. None of this takes away from the type of game you like to play so get over yourself.

Norsed wrote:
If you're playing Matched Play points are the only way you're going to balance things properly.

I would like to think that each time this comes up someone, somewhere slips on a tourney army list randomly lying on the floor.

Power Level. I only play with my wife and we just like to make and play with what looks cool and throw dice around for a couple of hours, so PL is fine.

Points. I don't like the way PL handles upgrades. Certain units have far too many upgrades to be a flat PL. I use BattleScribe on my tablet and so making a list on the fly takes no time at all.