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What fi you did a wonky line? Like in some places A's were more forward and in some places B's more forward? Might make it extremely difficult to fight one squad and not the other, or at least one whole squad and not another.

That being said, at this point the game seems to be losing it's fun, lol.

 benlac wrote:
What fi you did a wonky line? Like in some places A's were more forward and in some places B's more forward? Might make it extremely difficult to fight one squad and not the other, or at least one whole squad and not another.

That being said, at this point the game seems to be losing it's fun, lol.

Making the line wonky actually makes it easier to make contact; just choose the target squad that's nearest you.

With curved base edges there is always a tangent and the tangent is always the only thing that needs to be in range. It's also, technically, infinitely narrow so there's no gap it can't fit into.

The only way to make this "trick" work is with square bases and, even then, if the charger is allowed to align a corner they can still make it.

 benlac wrote:
What fi you did a wonky line? Like in some places A's were more forward and in some places B's more forward? Might make it extremely difficult to fight one squad and not the other, or at least one whole squad and not another.

That being said, at this point the game seems to be losing it's fun, lol.

In principle you can do this if your units are arranged in a big arc.

Obviously if your units are arranged like:
A . C
ABC
ABC
..B

then nobody can charge only unit B from above. If you add in more flanking units that are staggered ahead of A and C then it becomes awkward to charge only A or C too. It's hard to do this with text art but you can set up units in a circle around an enemy such that it is impossible for the enemy to get within 1" of just one unit. This requires a circle of a specific diameter, though, and it will always be possible to charge the flanks unless the circle is complete.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 benlac wrote:
What fi you did a wonky line? Like in some places A's were more forward and in some places B's more forward? Might make it extremely difficult to fight one squad and not the other, or at least one whole squad and not another.

That being said, at this point the game seems to be losing it's fun, lol.

Making the line wonky actually makes it easier to make contact; just choose the target squad that's nearest you.

With curved base edges there is always a tangent and the tangent is always the only thing that needs to be in range. It's also, technically, infinitely narrow so there's no gap it can't fit into.

The only way to make this "trick" work is with square bases and, even then, if the charger is allowed to align a corner they can still make it.

But if the line is like this and your opponent is charging from right to left:

.....B
..A
....B
......A
...B
.....A

It would be impossible to charge into all the A's without getting in an inch of a B. And impossible to charge all the B's without getting in an inch of an A. Of course, you could charge the two B's in the top of the line above here, but wouldn't be able to get at the 3rd B. So you could effectively shelter 1/3 of both squads this way unless your opponent wanted to engage both in combat.

 benlac wrote:

It would be impossible to charge into all the A's without getting in an inch of a B. And impossible to charge all the B's without getting in an inch of an A. Of course, you could charge the two B's in the top of the line above here, but wouldn't be able to get at the 3rd B. So you could effectively shelter 1/3 of both squads this way unless your opponent wanted to engage both in combat.

Not really... You only need to charge a single A, the outermost one. The charge rules require a single model do that then the rest can charge as they will. So you move them as close as possible but outside the 1" bubble of squad B. Then combat begins and they pile in 3" closer. Due to how this mechanic works, you can use those 3" to get into range of the other As while still technically having moved closer to the nearest model (B). These finesse shenanigans allow you to dogpile into the remainder of A while also denying B any overwatches and locking them in. You won't be able to swing at B this turn but you should have enough range to hit A.

Because keep in mind too that A and B both need to stay in coherency so none of the models can be more than 2" away from the next model in their squad. So your illustration would be at max 2" gaps that a 3" pile in has no trouble closing, even allowing for the 1" outside bubble range, because all you need to do is get within 1" of the model to engage it. So maximum distance A can be is 3" while you have a 4" engagement range.

Due to basic geometry, there will always be at least 1 point where you are within 1 inch of 1 unit without being within 1 inch of the other. You don't have to get in contact with all models, you only have to get 1 of your models close enough to 1 of theirs. Then you can pile into the rest and not care about getting close to the other unit. It is impossible to force your opponent to charge both, he can always decide to just charge 1 unit.

Also, you don't really shelter your squad doing that. Casualties can come from anywhere in the squad. Even if the enemy is only close to 1 model of your unit, they can still wipe out your entire squad. All it does is reduce the attacks you make back, and possibly make it easier to disengage from combat by killing your guys that are close. The other downside is that you leave the other unit stuck in.

You'll generally be much better off just putting 1 squad in front of the other. That way you have more to say about which squad takes the charge.

 benlac wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 benlac wrote:
What fi you did a wonky line? Like in some places A's were more forward and in some places B's more forward? Might make it extremely difficult to fight one squad and not the other, or at least one whole squad and not another.

That being said, at this point the game seems to be losing it's fun, lol.

Making the line wonky actually makes it easier to make contact; just choose the target squad that's nearest you.

With curved base edges there is always a tangent and the tangent is always the only thing that needs to be in range. It's also, technically, infinitely narrow so there's no gap it can't fit into.

The only way to make this "trick" work is with square bases and, even then, if the charger is allowed to align a corner they can still make it.

But if the line is like this and your opponent is charging from right to left:

.....B
..A
....B
......A
...B
.....A

It would be impossible to charge into all the A's without getting in an inch of a B. And impossible to charge all the B's without getting in an inch of an A. Of course, you could charge the two B's in the top of the line above here, but wouldn't be able to get at the 3rd B. So you could effectively shelter 1/3 of both squads this way unless your opponent wanted to engage both in combat.

You don't have to charge into all of anything though. That's where you're going wrong: only the initial charger has to get within 1" – the rest can form a conga line behind them for all the rules care…

Then, once you've completed the charge, you're free to consolidate into the remainder of the target squad, ignoring the exclusions zones which no longer exist. You can also freely consolidate into range of the other squad too, even if you can't direct attacks against them this turn.

Also, the wound allocation rules are such that if you do enough hits to kill every model in the target unit, the target unit can be wiped out; you can't hide models from wounding hits because wound allocation doesn't care about range.

Right right, I messed up how I wrote that.
The point I intended to make wasn't about charging, but about fighting. This method would force your opponent to charge both squads to fight both, or charge and fight just one, but if your opponent charged and fought just squad B he wouldn't be able to get within 1'' of all of Squad B without coming within 1'' of Squad A. Because say the attacking player set up his models attacking the two top B models (in the amazing diagram above) and ignored the models that you have to get within 1'' of Squad A to get at, then the defending player can just remove his models that are within 1'' of the attacking players models when they become slain until his squad is no longer within 1'' of the attacking unit. Thus, all of Squad B cannot be targeted in the fight phase unless the opponent is willing to fight Squad A & B in the fight phase -which I think would be a pretty rare occurrence and yeah, not sure why I'm even discussing this as I'll never be that competitive to do it.

 benlac wrote:
Right right, I messed up how I wrote that.
The point I intended to make wasn't about charging, but about fighting. This method would force your opponent to charge both squads to fight both, or charge and fight just one, but if your opponent charged and fought just squad B he wouldn't be able to get within 1'' of all of Squad B without coming within 1'' of Squad A. Because say the attacking player set up his models attacking the two top B models (in the amazing diagram above) and ignored the models that you have to get within 1'' of Squad A to get at, then the defending player can just remove his models that are within 1'' of the attacking players models when they become slain until his squad is no longer within 1'' of the attacking unit. Thus, all of Squad B cannot be targeted in the fight phase unless the opponent is willing to fight Squad A & B in the fight phase -which I think would be a pretty rare occurrence and yeah, not sure why I'm even discussing this as I'll never be that competitive to do it.

No -- like Mr Rose said, you only have to be within 1" of a single model of an enemy unit in order to potentially wipe it out in the Fight phase. In 8th, you can't ever protect yourself from some of a unit's shooting or CC attacks by removing models, once they've already declared the attacks.

Really? I thought you could remove the models in range before the rest of the attacks resolved?

I can imagine this leading to some peculiar instances.. like the guy on the very end of a long line has some Terminators pile around him and then your whole row of scouts dies lol

Round bases means you can always be 1" within one unit while staying more then 1" away from another. Then the pile in begins.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 benlac wrote:
Right right, I messed up how I wrote that.
The point I intended to make wasn't about charging, but about fighting. This method would force your opponent to charge both squads to fight both, or charge and fight just one, but if your opponent charged and fought just squad B he wouldn't be able to get within 1'' of all of Squad B without coming within 1'' of Squad A. Because say the attacking player set up his models attacking the two top B models (in the amazing diagram above) and ignored the models that you have to get within 1'' of Squad A to get at, then the defending player can just remove his models that are within 1'' of the attacking players models when they become slain until his squad is no longer within 1'' of the attacking unit. Thus, all of Squad B cannot be targeted in the fight phase unless the opponent is willing to fight Squad A & B in the fight phase -which I think would be a pretty rare occurrence and yeah, not sure why I'm even discussing this as I'll never be that competitive to do it.

No -- like Mr Rose said, you only have to be within 1" of a single model of an enemy unit in order to potentially wipe it out in the Fight phase. In 8th, you can't ever protect yourself from some of a unit's shooting or CC attacks by removing models, once they've already declared the attacks.

benlac wrote:Really? I thought you could remove the models in range before the rest of the attacks resolved?

I can imagine this leading to some peculiar instances.. like the guy on the very end of a long line has some Terminators pile around him and then your whole row of scouts dies lol

This is probably what you're referring to:



Which is referring to a unit that has not been activated yet that is suddenly out of 1" range. But, you cannot "conga line" your attackers and still get all of your attacks. You'd only be able to attack with models within 1" of an enemy unit and models that are within 1" of a model within 1" of an enemy unit. The guy at the back of the line does not fit either of those criteria. You most certainly can conga line your models in the Charge Phase, however, then pile them into the rest of the unit in the Fight Phase, which is what I think Mr. Rose was referring to.

No, the thing is, after you've made your consolidate move, if the models in the attacking unit can generate sufficient hits, the entire defending unit can be wiped out regardless of where individual models in that unit are located relative to the attackers. This is because, once you've determined which attacking models are within range, the actual attack resolution bit, which comes after, doesn't care about range.

That is, a blob of attackers at one end of a line of defenders can chew up the entire defending unit if they have enough attacks that start fight step 5 in range.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
No, the thing is, after you've made your consolidate move, if the models in the attacking unit can generate sufficient hits, the entire defending unit can be wiped out regardless of where individual models in that unit are located relative to the attackers. This is because, once you've determined which attacking models are within range, the actual attack resolution bit, which comes after, doesn't care about range.

That is, a blob of attackers at one end of a line of defenders can chew up the entire defending unit if they have enough attacks that start fight step 5 in range.

Oh yeah, definitely.

in certain situations yes you can have it so that you can force a double overwatch. your corner flanks would have to be covered by terrain and it would have to be cramped so your ABAB models would be close enough that the 1" would be enough to cover A from B