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The strategem is, in this context, is far more useful on Noise Marines than regular CSM with the mark. Noise Marines come with 2 attacks base, which is huge in this edition as the +1 for having two CCWs is no longer a thing and many units have to buy their Chainswords.

Noise Marines, again, have superior guns than their CSM counterpart (the blast master is. in fact, a stronger version of the Missile Launcher for 20% less the cost. This discount was probably taken out of the Noise Marine's base cost). This, combined with the above (and the fact that the Blast Master has a Heavy Profile) means that Noise Marines themselves are far more favourable to be targets for the strategem as well as to play to the style for the strategem.

This just makes the gap between them and marked CSM that much larger, which is not the case for Intercessors VS Tactical squads. Again, I want Noise Marines as troops too, but I can see why people would say it'd be too strong. And again, Scions vs Infantry would be a better comparison, especially since Scions use to be elites as well and got hard shifted to troops (whereas even in the index Noise Marines only got to be troops conditionally). If Scions remain troops in the Guard dex, then there *might* be some favouritism going on (since I suspect that the entire reason why scions are troops is because whoever made the index eyeballed the MT codex, saw a troops entry, and just C+P'd it into the index without realizing what the greater context of that codex was about, not because they wanted to give guard a Dire Avenger/Chosen Troops equivalent).

But you are never using the stratagem on either CSM or noise marines was the point. It's something you use on a more elite unit, like terminators or havocs depending on what you've got. Stratagems are usable once per turn, unless the unit is a great target for the stratagem (noise marines aren't) you won't use it. Because they aren't really an elite unit, any more than intercessors are.

It depends how big the squad is, and what you are targeting. There is a local player near me that runs 30 or so noise marines, and if he needs to kill infantry he may use it on the noise marines. If you tool them out with all sound weapons, they can do quite a bit of damage.

But even without the stratagem or EC tactics, which i never mentioned originally, they are quite good.

Ignoring cover is quite good, blastmasters are a great weapon for 20 points, and they are pretty decent in close combat.

Also i think the ability to shoot again when they die is quite good. It punishes you for killing them more than any other unit in the game, and ignoring them means you keep getting shot by them.

The point was that comparing them to Intercessors on some weird crusade against GW is a flawed argument to begin with, as Intercessors add very little above what tactical marines did, while Noise Marines are so much more superior to their CSM counterparts, and mildly superior to Intercessors. Again, a better comparison would be Scions vs Infantry squads.

Plus I would use it on noise marines. A squad of 10 armed with Sonic Blasters and a single Blastmaster puts out an Ork-envyingly 54 cover-ignoring bolter shots at max range and anywhere from 2-6 Krak Missile equivallents. That is basically the same as saying every marine is armed with a Hurricane bolter (that ignores cover) and somehow one of them got his hands on the Exorcist launcher. Giving that squad ObSec and Troops choice not only gives you more CPs to basically spam this strategem every turn (not necessarily on the same squad mind you, but to use this every turn would need quite a lot of CPs), but also gives them very little reason to move off an objective once they get on it (which mitigates the relatively short range of their sonic blasters). Not to mention if you actually tried to abuse this with a properly equipped Noise Marine Squad, you can get something like 120 sonic blaster shots off (which is probably enough to delete anything short of a titanic model or conscript blobs on the first turn).

Again, I'm agreeing with you that Noise Marines should be troops. I'm just disagreeing that the evidence for favouritism on GW's part is the Intercessors, since their impact on the Space Marine codex as a whole has been...neglectable at best (you can remove them entirely from the SM codex and no one would feel the difference). Noise Marines, on the other hand, has a tangible effect depending on whether or not they're troops, and I can see why GW might think it would break the balance (whether or not it actually will break the balance is another story entirely).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The point was that comparing them to Intercessors on some weird crusade against GW is a flawed argument to begin with, as Intercessors add very little above what tactical marines did, while Noise Marines are so much more superior to their CSM counterparts, and mildly superior to Intercessors. Again, a better comparison would be Scions vs Infantry squads.

Plus I would use it on noise marines. A squad of 10 armed with Sonic Blasters and a single Blastmaster puts out an Ork-envyingly 54 cover-ignoring bolter shots at max range and anywhere from 2-6 Krak Missile equivallents. That is basically the same as saying every marine is armed with a Hurricane bolter (that ignores cover) and somehow one of them got his hands on the Exorcist launcher. Giving that squad ObSec and Troops choice not only gives you more CPs to basically spam this strategem every turn (not necessarily on the same squad mind you, but to use this every turn would need quite a lot of CPs), but also gives them very little reason to move off an objective once they get on it (which mitigates the relatively short range of their sonic blasters). Not to mention if you actually tried to abuse this with a properly equipped Noise Marine Squad, you can get something like 120 sonic blaster shots off (which is probably enough to delete anything short of a titanic model or conscript blobs on the first turn).

Again, I'm agreeing with you that Noise Marines should be troops. I'm just disagreeing that the evidence for favouritism on GW's part is the Intercessors, since their impact on the Space Marine codex as a whole has been...neglectable at best (you can remove them entirely from the SM codex and no one would feel the difference). Noise Marines, on the other hand, has a tangible effect depending on whether or not they're troops, and I can see why GW might think it would break the balance (whether or not it actually will break the balance is another story entirely).

Yeah intercessors are very poor troops IMO. They are only half decent at not dying, and they aren't even great at that. Scouts and tacs are way better IMO.

Given that the opinion seems to be that legion infantry shouldn't be allowed to be troops, I look forward to the death guard codex only having poxwalkers for troops.

Dudeface wrote:
Given that the opinion seems to be that legion infantry shouldn't be allowed to be troops, I look forward to the death guard codex only having poxwalkers for troops.

Or maybe they will get some new models, or maybe Death Guard and Thousand Sons get to be special snowflakes, or maybe, yeah, poxwalkers only. If you want to use Plauge Marines, suck up Vanguard detachments or pay the tax for CP.

Not sure about poxwalkers, but Tzaangors for their only troops actually makes sense for the T-Sons. Apparently the T-Sons suffered some pretty big losses in their invasions (Yes, multiple) of Fenris and after they found the Tzaangors, used them as the bulk of their forces. So them (and some chaos cultists) being the only troops actually do make some sense, if undesirable.

It does make sense they'd be the most numerous troops on the field, but I really can't see GW releasing a main centre stage army with literally 1 troops choice. For better or worse I think it would alienate a chunk of the existing playerbase for those 2 factions.

Fluff wise you don't see requests for scouts to be elites because they're not line infantry and instead a specialised company. I think the problems raised for the legion infantry is from a balance perspective more than a fluff one

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Not sure about poxwalkers, but Tzaangors for their only troops actually makes sense for the T-Sons. Apparently the T-Sons suffered some pretty big losses in their invasions (Yes, multiple) of Fenris and after they found the Tzaangors, used them as the bulk of their forces. So them (and some chaos cultists) being the only troops actually do make some sense, if undesirable.

I would probably have to find a different army if Thousand Sons and Death Guard got locked into Tzaangors and Poxwalkers. I picked these armies because I like elite troops, hordes are the antithesis of my playstyle.

Dudeface wrote:
It does make sense they'd be the most numerous troops on the field, but I really can't see GW releasing a main centre stage army with literally 1 troops choice. For better or worse I think it would alienate a chunk of the existing playerbase for those 2 factions.

Fluff wise you don't see requests for scouts to be elites because they're not line infantry and instead a specialised company. I think the problems raised for the legion infantry is from a balance perspective more than a fluff one

Death Guard aren't a "center stage army", they're a subfaction just like AdMech and Genestealer Cults and basically just an excuse to release a Mortarion model.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Not sure about poxwalkers, but Tzaangors for their only troops actually makes sense for the T-Sons. Apparently the T-Sons suffered some pretty big losses in their invasions (Yes, multiple) of Fenris and after they found the Tzaangors, used them as the bulk of their forces. So them (and some chaos cultists) being the only troops actually do make some sense, if undesirable.

I would probably have to find a different army if Thousand Sons and Death Guard got locked into Tzaangors and Poxwalkers. I picked these armies because I like elite troops, hordes are the antithesis of my playstyle.

You aren't "locked into" anything. You just don't (presumably) get ObSec and have to take the Vanguard detachment. You can still run an all-elite army, but there are downsides to doing so, which is as it should be.

There are already downsides, my stuff is more expensive than Guard.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Not sure about poxwalkers, but Tzaangors for their only troops actually makes sense for the T-Sons. Apparently the T-Sons suffered some pretty big losses in their invasions (Yes, multiple) of Fenris and after they found the Tzaangors, used them as the bulk of their forces. So them (and some chaos cultists) being the only troops actually do make some sense, if undesirable.

I would probably have to find a different army if Thousand Sons and Death Guard got locked into Tzaangors and Poxwalkers. I picked these armies because I like elite troops, hordes are the antithesis of my playstyle.

So what, exactly, is the problem with using vanguard detachments to field the units you want?

I pledge that if Plague Marines are troops in a Death Guard force, I will grow a handlebar mustache and twirl it ever so diabolically when I field them as ObSec Troops.

 Sim-Life wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It does make sense they'd be the most numerous troops on the field, but I really can't see GW releasing a main centre stage army with literally 1 troops choice. For better or worse I think it would alienate a chunk of the existing playerbase for those 2 factions.

Fluff wise you don't see requests for scouts to be elites because they're not line infantry and instead a specialised company. I think the problems raised for the legion infantry is from a balance perspective more than a fluff one

Death Guard aren't a "center stage army", they're a subfaction just like AdMech and Genestealer Cults and basically just an excuse to release a Mortarion model.

They have a month full of releases, they're the 2nd set of releases for an 8th ed army, they're in the starter box and are the protagonists for a world wide campaign.

GW is treating them as a major player, they're not a subfaction any more. Also what is AdMech a subtraction of?

Has anyone read the errata? They fixed it for Berserkers and Noise marines. I assume plague and Rubric marines will get fixed when their codex comes out.

Page 132 – Khorne Berzerkers, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Berzerker Horde: The Battlefield Role of World Eaters
Khorne Berzerkers is Troops instead of Elites.

Page 135 – Noise Marines, Abilities
Add the following ability:
‘Masters of the Kakophoni: The Battlefield Role of
Emperor’s Children Noise Marines is Troops instead
of Elites.

It's a bit strange that the non-god specific factions didn't also get additional choices for troops, such as chosen for Black Legion and possessed for Word Bearers.

Technically plague marines and rubrics never stopped being troops, except under the most esoteric and convoluted reading of the rules, but this is still a very good thing. Ob sec objective sitters are all rubrics and plague marines are really good for (noise marines as well tbh).

The idea you'd ever bother with a vanguard detachment for such units is kinda funny. Oh yeah, because we all know how much usage everything but zerkers get outside their parent legion, lol. Vanguard is for taking terminators and hellbrutes, or at least chosen special weapon squads, things that make a real impact, not plague marines, rubrics, or noise marines who are just slightly less useless CSM squads (or slightly more useless without obj secured and troop status).