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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
fwiw i agree with cat.
do you really believe that this ability should have the chance to wipe out entire squads as long as you keep rolling a 4+?

as an aside... its kind of poor form to ask a question and then argue its answer because you don't like the result.



Should it keep wounding on a 4+? Probably not.

You're arguing about rules written by GW, ie, notoriously bad for clarifying stuff that should already be airtight when published.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/20 22:28:46


YMDC = nightmare 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Tristanleo wrote:

Yes I do. The way it works speaks for itself. An attack rolling a 6 triggers another attack and potentially roll another 6, fulfilling it's own requirement.


Just as a model slain by the Ossefactor's Mortal Wound ability would trigger its own requirement.

Tristanleo wrote:

The ossifier has no stipulation of this. If a model is slain by this weapon, so you can only trigger it up to tnlhe number of times it fires as anyone killed by its effect isn't killed by the weapon, it's killed by the effect of the weapon of another.


Sorry but this is an untenable position.

A weapon's special abilities are just the mechanical properties of that weapon. That's it. if a model is killed by a weapon's special ability then for all intents and purposes it is killed by that weapon.

Tristanleo wrote:
So not the ossifier itself, but the ossifier bone of the victim.


You cannot use fluff to support a rules argument.

That might be how it works in the fluff, but mechanically the Ossefactor - not its victim - is the soruce of the Mortal Wound. And thus any subsequent victims still count as having being killed by the Ossefactor itself.


Since we're getting into fluff though, I have to wonder how being struck/pierced by a single bone shard is somehow more dangerous than having your entire skeleton outgrow your body.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The explosion doesn't specify it is caused by the weapon.

Further if a model is slain the unit suffers a mortal wound on 4+, does not say for each model slain by this weapon a model suffers a mortal wound on a d6.

It's just one chance to roll per weapon, if a model is slain by that weapon.

Same with shrieker ammo.

If it had permission to keep rolling it would be stated in the rules for the weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/22 17:01:40


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

blaktoof wrote:
The explosion doesn't specify it is caused by the weapon.


Why would it need to?

The ability is a property of the weapon.

blaktoof wrote:

Further if a model is slain the unit suffers a mortal wound on 4+, does not say for each model slain by this weapon a model suffers a mortal wound on a d6.


By that logic it only works once per game.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

This isn't the first time a rule like this has popped up. It has come up in multiple editions. Each time it has, GW has FAQed it that only the weapon directly can trigger the special rule. The special rule can not trigger further instances of the special rule.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





This is YMDC Ghaz - no one is going to accept anything approaching common sense, precedent, or obvious intent so unfortunately that argument holds no weight.

Regarding the original topic - I do not believe the Ossefactor's mortal wound ability would continue to trigger mortal wounds. I believe that a weapon kills a model by engaging in 'roll to hit, to wound, etc' process and any damage caused outside that confine is a wound cased by an extraneous stimuli and thus cannot cause additional triggers.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Ghaz wrote:
This isn't the first time a rule like this has popped up. It has come up in multiple editions. Each time it has, GW has FAQed it that only the weapon directly can trigger the special rule. The special rule can not trigger further instances of the special rule.


Hmm, that's interesting to know.

I do seem to recall that Blood Talons were errated to not proc infinite times but that's the only one I can remember.

Farseer_V2 wrote:
This is YMDC Ghaz - no one is going to accept anything approaching common sense, precedent, or obvious intent so unfortunately that argument holds no weight.


Do you include yourself in that statement?

Farseer_V2 wrote:

Regarding the original topic - I do not believe the Ossefactor's mortal wound ability would continue to trigger mortal wounds. I believe that a weapon kills a model by engaging in 'roll to hit, to wound, etc' process and any damage caused outside that confine is a wound cased by an extraneous stimuli and thus cannot cause additional triggers.


I think it's worth noting that there are units with similar rules - such as Maugen Ra. However, his wording has a crucial difference: "If an Infantry model is slain by an attack made by this weapon, its unit suffers d3 Mortal Wounds."

(Emphasis mine.)

The fact that the Ossefactor lacks that clause would seem to indicate that *any* model slain by it will proc the effect (not just ones slain by its actual attack).

The question is whether that omission was accidental or deliberate. From what Ghaz has said it's looking like the former.

Either way, I'd like to see it clarified in an FAQ.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 vipoid wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
The Dark Eldar Ossefactor has this rule:

"If a model is slain by this weapon, the model's unit immediately suffers a mortal wound on a D6 roll of 4+."

If the resulting Mortal Wound kills a model, will it cause an additional Mortal Wound on a 4+?
No, because the mortal wounds are being caused by an additional special rule of the weapon, not by the damage (as in the specific rules term damage of the stuff that happens after a save is failed) caused by the weapon itself.


I don't follow.

Surely they're still being slain by the weapon, regardless of whether it's by the initial damage or by a special rule possessed by that weapon?


The special rule doesn't state that if the mortal wound kills another model in the unit that you keep rolling to apply additional mortal wounds to the unit. It would need to have some wording along those lines for you to be rolling more than the first time for bonus mortal damage.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 doctortom wrote:

The special rule doesn't state that if the mortal wound kills another model in the unit that you keep rolling to apply additional mortal wounds to the unit. It would need to have some wording along those lines for you to be rolling more than the first time for bonus mortal damage.


I disagree - as written, if the Mortal Wound kills a model then it will simply trigger the effect again (since another model was slain by the Ossefactor).

Going by other, similar rules, it actually needs wording to prevent the Mortal Wounds from triggering additional Mortal Wounds (or, as above, wording to specify that only models slain by the initial attack trigger the Mortal Wound).

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 vipoid wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

The special rule doesn't state that if the mortal wound kills another model in the unit that you keep rolling to apply additional mortal wounds to the unit. It would need to have some wording along those lines for you to be rolling more than the first time for bonus mortal damage.


I disagree - as written, if the Mortal Wound kills a model then it will simply trigger the effect again (since another model was slain by the Ossefactor).

Going by other, similar rules, it actually needs wording to prevent the Mortal Wounds from triggering additional Mortal Wounds (or, as above, wording to specify that only models slain by the initial attack trigger the Mortal Wound).


Rules quotes for those?
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

We have permission to roll for an additional Mortal Wound if the first one kills a model, since it fulfills all requirements to trigger the effect. (A model was killed by the Ossefactor.)

So a rules quote would be needed to prevent the additional roll, as the written rules already allow it.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Jimsolo wrote:
We have permission to roll for an additional Mortal Wound if the first one kills a model, since it fulfills all requirements to trigger the effect. (A model was killed by the Ossefactor.)

So a rules quote would be needed to prevent the additional roll, as the written rules already allow it.
Actually, the written rules don't allow it, because it's not the weapon killing the model via the shooting rules, it's a special rule totally unrelated to the weapon shooting.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 9th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities || Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. || Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in nl
Been Around the Block




 vipoid wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

The special rule doesn't state that if the mortal wound kills another model in the unit that you keep rolling to apply additional mortal wounds to the unit. It would need to have some wording along those lines for you to be rolling more than the first time for bonus mortal damage.


I disagree - as written, if the Mortal Wound kills a model then it will simply trigger the effect again (since another model was slain by the Ossefactor).

Going by other, similar rules, it actually needs wording to prevent the Mortal Wounds from triggering additional Mortal Wounds (or, as above, wording to specify that only models slain by the initial attack trigger the Mortal Wound).


No. I believe there is zero precedent for any GW mechanic to keep triggering itself ever since the Virus grenade in 2nd edition, and there it was explicit. So I would not consider this a reasonable reading of the rules.
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






Seriously? Since when is a model not killed by a weapon effect? The ossefactor killed multiple models on proc last edition this is actually a much more turned down ossefactor. So if you got priority orders maelstrom obj to slay the warlord and your warlord has a sniper rifle is the additional mortal wound not caused by him then?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 13:54:40


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Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Hades wrote:
Seriously? Since when is a model not killed by a weapon effect? The ossefactor killed multiple models on proc last edition this is actually a much more turned down ossefactor. So if you got priority orders maelstrom obj to slay the warlord and your warlord has a sniper rifle is the additional mortal wound not caused by him then?
Previous editions have zero bearing on how the rules currently work.

Slay the Warlord doesn't care how the model is slain, just that it is slain. Totally unrelated to the question at hand.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 9th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities || Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. || Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






Priority orders calls for your warlord to complete an objective in this case kingslayer or any kill something objective would work too.

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