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That said, if you're playing in a retail store it still is a little bit of an issue. If you enjoy the service of open tables on a neutral space to play, then buy actual models from where you play to support that. Otherwise, blame yourself when that's no longer an option.

That said, if you pay for table use then everything's game.

On the other hand, if you're buying prints or recast of small or medium popularity games (even large games suffer) and are wondering why they've slowed in releases or support, there's your answer.

It's simple, just lick the model, per Hobbyist Urban myth if it's a recast you'll die, if you only get quite ill its genuine

Rubbish, I chew my models all the time and I'm fine!

I dont know how i would feel if some one picked up my model and started sniffing licking or chewing on them

1 easy way is if its originally a metal model with no fine cast option and its resin.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont know how i would feel if some one picked up my model and started sniffing licking or chewing on them

1 easy way is if its originally a metal model with no fine cast option and its resin.

Like said before, there are metal recasts of metal models.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont know how i would feel if some one picked up my model and started sniffing licking or chewing on them

1 easy way is if its originally a metal model with no fine cast option and its resin.

I was eBay hunting for a party of playable character models for Only War / Dark Heresy and found out I have a resin Tallarn trooper. They never came in finecast Same quality and detail; I just noticed he was light as a feather.

Support your local FLGS. If a guy has a tabletop quality or a stellar army and has a few recast - feth it let him. If it's painted and you buy local products - no one will care. I'd much rather see a well painted DKoK army thats recasted than an unpainted proxy soda can drop pod army. If that DKoK guy spends 30$ a week on paints, bases, and a tank here or there? He's fine in my book!

Personally in regards to recast

I really dont care to know or what to know just dont sit there and brag about it in a store because you clearly didnt purchase it there.

dont ask dont tell and dont be a donkeycave its not that hard to do... maybe not the last one

I have a buddy that purchases FW models and recasts them for himself; no reselling. For example, he'll buy one DKK squad from FW and recast it over and over until he has all the infantry he desires to have in his army. While I'm happy he doesn't resell anything, it's still a little off putting.

I draw the line when it comes to outright purchasing a recast model. It's disrespectful to bring that gak to the table.

Why?

How am I disrespecting you with how I chose to spend my money on models for my army?

Your models can't catch "recast" you know.

Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

 oni wrote:
I draw the line when it comes to outright purchasing a recast model. It's disrespectful to bring that gak to the table.

To who, you?

You gonna be mad because I have some recast Arbites? Daemonettes? Any other variety of model that isn't being made any more?


Good, play with someone else. I'm sure the Authenticity Police are welcome in some corner, people who actually want to play the game and don't care about this sort of thing are far more common.

GW is a big company, ergo it is alright to steal from them, and make a profit on it. Got it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Why?

How am I disrespecting you with how I chose to spend my money on models for my army?

Your models can't catch "recast" you know.

Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

I think it's disrespectful because, based upon the number of finecast (and even a couple FW) recasts I've seen, they found a higher quality version of the miniature than I did and didn't share.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 totalfailure wrote:
GW is a big company, ergo it is alright to steal from them, and make a profit on it. Got it.

Oh dear.

 totalfailure wrote:
GW is a big company, ergo it is alright to steal from them, and make a profit on it. Got it.

The irony of the username is delicious.

Recasting is not theft. The only reason to refer to it as such is to try and illicit some sort of emotional response to generate a reaction because the truth "recasting is IP infringement, which is a civil matter" doesn't sound edgy enough.

Either argue the facts and be logical or stay out of the discussion. When people start yelling "theft!" etc is traditionally when these threads take a turn for the locked.

Care to explain, why it's not a theft? Because taking a product, making copies of it and selling them for a profit, even though it's clearly stated that it's under protection of IP laws, does sound like a theft to me.

No, theft is taking somebody else's property without permission or paying for it.

Legitimately purchasing something and then making unlicensed copies of it is copyright infringement.

They're very different, and as such they're covered by a whole different set of laws and penalties.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 Space Marines don't inexplicably disappear from somewhere in GW's warehouse every time some garage recaster makes himself a new Tactical Squad.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

No, that absolutely isn't all we're talking about. There is a huge difference between using legal non-GW models in ways that GW didn't approve of and using illegal recasts of GW IP. That non-GW model may have some convenient similarities with something GW has made, perhaps even enough to be WYSIWYG, but the creator still made their own thing and sold it as a legitimate competing product. The recaster, on the other hand, is not making a legitimate competing product. They're ripping off all the work GW did, breaking the law in the process, and selling entirely on the fact that making an illegal recast of something with low-wage labor in China is cheaper than selling a legitimate product.

As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

I have a recasted Riptide that I bought from Ebay in the belief that it was the real and original thing.

As it is resin, the body is solid, not hollow like the GW plastic ones, so is heavier. Thats the only way I think recasts can be noticiable. (If they are of good quality of course)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Do you feel similarly disrespected if your opponent uses non-GW (because that's all we're realistically talking about it) models that cost less than the official ones?

No, that absolutely isn't all we're talking about. There is a huge difference between using legal non-GW models in ways that GW didn't approve of and using illegal recasts of GW IP. That non-GW model may have some convenient similarities with something GW has made, perhaps even enough to be WYSIWYG, but the creator still made their own thing and sold it as a legitimate competing product. The recaster, on the other hand, is not making a legitimate competing product. They're ripping off all the work GW did, breaking the law in the process, and selling entirely on the fact that making an illegal recast of something with low-wage labor in China is cheaper than selling a legitimate product.

Now tie that back into why any of that disrespects the opponent and you'll have a point? I'd take your argument more seriously if I hadn't seen you asking for advice on where to order the best casts of recast kits elsewhere online.

As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

Firstly, British, couldn't give a gak about what the FBI say.

Secondly, they call it "copyright theft" here too, I guarantee that's not what people get prosecuted with if they're taken to court. A quick review of actual convictions of torrent site operators, a reasonable analogy for recasters, shows that "felony copyright infringement" was what they were convicted on, and to be so were operating on a scale far beyond anything that any recaster are. Not theft.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I'm done with this thread, it's spiraling in the usual direction, and now Peregrine's here he'll do his damndest to make sure of it.

 Peregrine wrote:
As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

I just want to see the FBI Agent that gets tasked with raiding the local FLGS for knock-off Forge World bits.

The doors smash open, like being blown by a hurricane. Task Force Authentic charged in, weapons drawn- armed like a SWAT team and led by the brave agent Stribble. He grabs one particularly nervous, looking neckbeard, slamming him over the table. Miniatures clatter and fall, and the confounded Tau player wets himself with his hands raised, backing away into the wall.

"Well, well, well. If it isn't Death Korps of Krieg... or should I say... Death Korps of Kaifeng! We been lookin' for you a long time, scumbag" Agent Stribble says, clicking together the handcuffs behind the already-sweating, unwashed wargamer.

"I..I don't know what you're talkin' about man, it's not my stuff... honest! My cousin gave these models to me!" The shackled neckbeard sputters.

"Oh, really?" Agent Stribble asks, grabbing the guy by his unwashed hair. Stribble reached for one model, expertly painted. He placed it under his nose, rubbing it against his greying mustache. "Knockoff. Chinese. About six months old. Tell me another one, scumbag. Interpol is dying to get their hands on you and the rest of your little operation."

A short while later, one sobbing neckbeard was locked inside an unmarked SUV. Agents were taking statements from witnesses. "Stribble, I don't know how you do it", Field Agent Kruger asked, her blouse unbuttoned just enough to be provocative.

"Sixteen years working the beat. Lurking in the back of these stores- breathing in the scent of Nuln Oil, gluing my fingers together, rolling the dice. You become a part of it and you go by your instincts. I don't know, it just comes natural. Kruger, maybe... maybe I just hate Chinacasters, or maybe I just care about the law."

Cue dramatic saxaphone.

Credits roll.

 Azreal13 wrote:
...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 Space Marines don't inexplicably disappear from somewhere in GW's warehouse every time some garage recaster makes himself a new Tactical Squad.

Although something like that sounds like it would fit in perfectly with a Terry Pratchett (RIP) novel.

On topic, is looking for recasts something that people regularly do?
And since many people don't like you to touch their models (weight differs on some recasts) how would you ever even suspect, assuming a good casting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Obviously you get a hammer and chisel and cut off a chip of the model to be sent off for testing.

Now this seems reasonable.

 privateer4hire wrote:

On topic, is looking for recasts something that people regularly do?

Yes. Though where I am, the people (including myself) that are after recasts aren't looking for a Forge World Imperial Knight or something. It's usually models like the ones I mentioned before- I want something like the Arbites or the other Necromunda models, and a few of the old Fantasy Chaos Warriors from the early 1990's that were metal. These things have been discontinued for years and I'll gladly take even a cheap resin knock-off.

But to be fair, when I find someone selling them in good condition, I'll pay for those models, too.

When GW or FW sells them again, I will gladly give them my money.

 CragHack wrote:
Care to explain, why it's not a theft? Because taking a product, making copies of it and selling them for a profit, even though it's clearly stated that it's under protection of IP laws, does sound like a theft to me.

That's Forgery Not Theft

Guys chill out, this isn't the thread to get into the morality of recasting, all it was intended to be was how to potentially spot them.

We've had this argument like 50 times. We all know no one is changing sides on this and all it does is get the thread locked.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The better question is....why does it matter?

/thread.


Honestly who cares if your opponent has recasted stuff? I've seen recasted stuff that is way better casted then legit FW stuff. I've seen some horribly casted stuff. As long as it's painted (painted well is even better ) I could care less.

As ChromeDog said way better then I ever could, unless you know it was bought from a re-caster first hand there is no way to know. All the stuff about smell, touch, feel is all bull gak people make up to fool themselves into thinking they "are in the know".

If the caster is reasonably skilled, you can't tell once they are painted just by looking at them. With a bit of experimentation you can even match the GW grey plastic colour.

Picking them up- some recasters are lazy and mold entire assemblies as a unit, so that Contemptor Dread will weigh more than a hollow plastic model, but if they bother to make good molds you won't be able to tell. I don't know how heavy a FW Spartan is, but I've seen a recast one and it was real heavy.

I quite like these threads and the various arguments for and against, I hope it doesn't get locked as we should be able to discuss this matter like adults. Whatever my point of view, I think the key is, if you purchase recasts then don't tell everyone. I seriously doubt people start checking on their opponents models unless...
a. they're on that side of the argument, it's theft and they check everything.
b. for some reason they already have an idea you're using recasts.
c. they're already sore over losing or potentially losing.
I know somebody in my group who makes some purchases from a Chinese recaster, when I play him I always see if I can spot any difference (I can't) so kudos to anyone who can.

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
It's simple, just lick the model, per Hobbyist Urban myth if it's a recast you'll die, if you only get quite ill its genuine

Didn't GW try to use that in the Chapter House case?

I wouldn't buy a recast* - but I really don't care if somebody is using one.

Generally.... I would say that a good recast is very hard to spot.

The Auld Grump

* I can see the temptation for miniatures that are long out of production - but that has a lot more to do with availability than with saving money.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

 Peregrine wrote:
As for the idea that recasting isn't theft, let's ask some people who actually deal with crimes as a profession: https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/white-collar-crime/piracy-ip-theft

I'll see your FBI info page, and raise you a US Supreme Court precedent.

Both are against the law, but copyright infringement is (usually) a civil crime, theft is virtually always a criminal one. It's a pretty damn big distinction.

Anyway OP this thread's gonna get locked imminently so feel free to google any previous recast thread if you want to see the other arguments in this oft-repeated discussion.

 Ouze wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Double mould lines are no guarantee, original figures in blisters can be found with double cast lines.

Indeed, I got a pewter librarian from GWS that I am 100% confident is an original that had double mold lines on the inside legs. This was still in a sealed blister from an ancient FLGS, and it was a common model with no real value.

That is interesting! Wouldn't that mean someone at GW got lazy and made a mold off a production model instead of a master?

As someone who plays at clubs rather than wargaming stores I suppose I come from a different environment. I'm also more of a modeller than a gamer. When making stuff myself I'll make a mould of my own sculpts to save time. However Its easy enough to do the same for purchased models as well.

Primarily I'll do this with tank tracks. Its impossible to get a hold of certain components in 1/56th in plastic. Instead you need to make do with metal and resin, which are difficult to work with (besides the cost of the complete kits). Turn them into milliput and they're a lot easier to work with (i.e. in cutting up a few copies to extend their length, etc). The alternative's cutting up mesh files and 3D printing them, or completely scratch building (which I wind up doing more often than not).

Maybe that's not the full context here. I don't recast models wholesale, just the odd part (and usually just the fiddly bits) Making them isn't really looked down on as much as in the GW community I suppose. Most of my stuff's scratchbuilds anyway, so its not really noticeable. As an example the tracks on the below vehicle are longer than the original set (off of a Kettenkrad bike).



As for recasting outside of the GW community. Well I noticed some components on a Tank which I'd bought recently looked familiar. I checked another manufacturer and found the bits were exactly the same. I then go onto the major seller in the area's website and ...yup, the same again.