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stratigo wrote:

 Perth wrote:

Containment_Failure wrote:


Keep in mind that you always have the option of deploying the SftS units out of LoS, because you'll already know if you've got first or second turn (AND they don't count against your Reserve limit).

I'm pretty sure they do count for the reserve limit, as they are off the table during deployment and only placed at the beginning of the first battle round.

Actually they deploy before the first turn, so, they do not seem to.

They deploy at the start of the first battle round, before the first player turn begins. As a result, you effectively place the unit in "reserve" during the deployment step of a game. As such, they will be counted in the number of units you're allowed to place in reserve at the start of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:

Spoiler:

For Grav Devs VS Plasma Hellblasters, it really depends what you shooting at.

VS marines, the grav is better.
VS 2+/5++ terminators, the grav is better.
VS guardsmen, the grav is better.
VS rhinos, the plasma is better.

You can keep doing the math, but basically grav is better VS infantry and the plasma is better against tanks. The thing is, it's still not that good at killing vehicles. 5 Hell-blasters rapid-firing without re-rolls should put 8-9 wounds on a rhino, which doesn't even kill it. Against tougher vehicles, you do even less, and you probably lose the hellblasters the next turn no matter what.

Also, without re-rolls, which are harder to get when you SftS them, you lose 1-2 hellblasters each time to rapid fire if you overcharge.

Devs also have a much longer effective range, 24" vs 15", making them move likely to die the next turn, and benefit less, or not at all, from the raven guard chapter tactics. The hellblasters are harder to kill, though, with most weapons.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also,

I'd say deployment number isn't that important. Most tournaments will be doing the +1 to go first for finishing deployment, so i would push for/suggest using it in any pick up games you play as well.

And even then, 8 seems to be enough to get auto-first about half the time, according to most of the games i've played that way.

So, I would argue that with all plasma heavy unit’s you need to be running them with hit re-rolls, simply for survivability.

Also, I’d argue that the devastators are likely to die before the hellblasters in most situations, even when within rapid fire range. This is simply down to the fact that that the hellblasters will have twice as many wounds. Chances are, the hellblasters will also be getting the -1 to hit a lot of the time, but, even if they don’t, you still need an additional 30 bolter shots to kill them over the devs. They also have an additional 6” range over the devs and won’t suffer the -1 to hit. When looking at it, non-overcharging hellblasters aren’t that far behind in terms of “models killed on average”, especially once you consider both weapons will only be doing 1 wound a shot anyway.
For clarity, (considering the -1 to hit for moving with the grav)–
Vs Meq – Grav is better as it kills 1 marine more than the plas
Vs Teq – plasma is better when you overcharge
Vs guardsmen – plasma is better, but, on average they both do the same amount of “kills”
Vs t5+ - plasma is better if you overcharge



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For me, making the most of the complete set of Raven Guard tricks and tactics, involves building your force in 2 parts. 1 part essentially being a fire base including bubble wrap, and the 2nd part being an “in your face distraction”.
For me, the key units for making the most of the -1 to hit tactic are devestators (pref with lascannons), fire support dreadnoughts and Intercessors. Now, the Intercessors won’t “kill” much, but, due to their 2 wounds and the -1 to hit, they can make excellent, durable, mid-to-back field objective holders. Their 30” -1ap bolter range also helps when doing this.

The “distraction” force can be anything, but, I’ve been starting to lean more towards the idea of TH/SS Termies with a Librarian and/or Reivers. While I like the idea of Centurions or flamer Aggressors, if you don’t get first turn, then if your opponent it mobile, they are pretty much out of the game straight away. As for bolter Aggressors, i'd rather just take units of bolter Inceptors as when shooting MEQs, a squad of 3 performs almost as well as a squad of 6 Aggressors shooting twice for 78 points less. I’m also not sold on Vanguard vets right now. In 7th, I found they died way to easily, even with 2 or 3 SS’s in the squad (using the SSKT formation), and they never killed enough to earn their points back either. Things die even quicker now, so, unless they get a mega first turn, I’m not sure they are worth it. HOWEVER, one tactic that I’ve not seen used is to have them with jump packs and SftS with them. This essentially turns them into Harlequins with a 12” move on the first turn, allowing them to jump over screening units to get at the characters behind in a first turn charge. Overall, I still think they are too much of a suicide unit.
Reivers are an interesting choice. With SftS you don’t have to pay the (small amount of) points for the deep-strike options and you get a first turn charge and can make use of the grenades. These for me are there to support your main assault unit, by stopping the overwatch, while also being somewhat ok at chewing through screens.
TH/SS Termies are a must if you SftS instead of deep-striking. They are there to be a “oh ####” unit to your opponent on the first turn so will attract a lot of firepower. But, this then means the other 80 odd % of your army can do what it wants.
I’ve also toyed with the idea of running Shrike with the Termies and a Librarian as a mini ball of death that can assault without issue first turn. Shrike would not be my warlord in this case though, as he’d be very much be “behind enemy lines” killing characters with the help from the Librarian. 7 models for around 650 points, seems worth it…. Right??

My current list is a battalion and an air wing.
2 captains with jump packs and plasma
2 units of 5 bolter scouts
1 unit of 5 Intercessors
1 unit of 5 Reviers
1 Redemptor Dread
1 unit of 3 plasma Inceptors
1 unit of 5 Devs with 4 lascannons
1 Leviathan Dread with Grav Flux
2 Stormtalons with heavy bolters
1 Xiphon

The only unit I’d SftS in would be the Reivers as a mini distraction while they, and the 2 units of scouts also provide deep-strike protection across pretty much the entire “no man’s land” area. The Inceptors, while expensive, are a tough unit that can deal a lot of damage to elite units and will run with one of the captains for the re-rolls. These would hover around 16-17” away from enemy units to give a better chance of keeping the -1 to hit bubble (not guaranteed, but, by positioning to kill the closest unit each time, it provides an extra few inches of buffer). Leviathan will just walk up the table and should survive the first few turns due to it always getting the -1 to hit benefit until the scouts die. It is expensive in points, but will destroy everything on the table from hordes to tanks. Redemptor, Devs and last Captain are a mini fire base at the back supported slightly by the Intercessors. The 2 Stormtalons are simply anti horde, and the Xiphon both anti FLY and anti-tank.

Now, I’m not sure on how consistent the Inceptors will be, or whether 3 flyers is “too much”. Likewise, I’m still debating the Redemptor. I had originally planned to use 3 units of Intercessors, but, for the same cost I could get 2 units of scouts and a unit of Reivers, which, I feel do the intended job a bit better.

I’m sure a lot of you might have some thoughts and ideas around my list and my thoughts, so feel free to build on it and adapt it!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

stratigo wrote:
The problem raven guard face is forge world

Lyas issander does literally everything you want raven guard to do with their deployment shenanigans, but better cause he does it cheaper in cp

For me, I feel like I prefer what the stratagem offers me, more than I do Lias’ infiltrate abilities. And, let’s face it, you shouldn’t need both really. Sure, it costs CP, but, I feel the extra movement phase is well worth it, even if it is only to all but ensure a 1st turn charge. If I’m only running Lias to get shooty units in place, then, I feel it’s a somewhat expensive way to get some Sternguard up the table. You could use a drop pod for less points, and, you also run the risk of not being able to put them in a suitable position if your opponent deploys properly and you don’t have first turn.

So, I would argue that with all plasma heavy unit’s you need to be running them with hit re-rolls, simply for survivability.

Also, I’d argue that the devastators are likely to die before the hellblasters in most situations, even when within rapid fire range. This is simply down to the fact that that the hellblasters will have twice as many wounds. Chances are, the hellblasters will also be getting the -1 to hit a lot of the time, but, even if they don’t, you still need an additional 30 bolter shots to kill them over the devs. They also have an additional 6” range over the devs and won’t suffer the -1 to hit. When looking at it, non-overcharging hellblasters aren’t that far behind in terms of “models killed on average”, especially once you consider both weapons will only be doing 1 wound a shot anyway.
For clarity, (considering the -1 to hit for moving with the grav)–
Vs Meq – Grav is better as it kills 1 marine more than the plas
Vs Teq – plasma is better when you overcharge
Vs guardsmen – plasma is better, but, on average they both do the same amount of “kills”
Vs t5+ - plasma is better if you overcharge

1. Yes, i also think you should have re-rolls, but that means you have to spend more CP to SftS a HQ, or buy a jump pack, etc. Definitely not a reason not to do any of those things, and honestly i would want re-rolls for the grav too, but hellblasters REQUIRE more babysitting to not kill themselves, which i do see as a general con.
2. You are right it takes more bolters to kill hellblasters than devs, but the way i see it, a smart opponent is more likely to use plasma and other 2 damage weapons against you, and will likely be able to do so, since you are fairly close to them by nature of being in rapid fire range, and this makes them in practice about the same durability as the devs, or less so if the enemy is within 12". I know most of my lists can take some hits from hellblasters, and then probably kill them with reasonable effectiveness.
3. If you SftS the Devs, you won't count as moving with the Grav, since you will just appear in range of what you want to hit, and not move in the movement phase. This may be where our numbers differ.

For me, making the most of the complete set of Raven Guard tricks and tactics, involves building your force in 2 parts. 1 part essentially being a fire base including bubble wrap, and the 2nd part being an “in your face distraction”.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

For me, the key units for making the most of the -1 to hit tactic are devestators (pref with lascannons), fire support dreadnoughts and Intercessors. Now, the Intercessors won’t “kill” much, but, due to their 2 wounds and the -1 to hit, they can make excellent, durable, mid-to-back field objective holders. Their 30” -1ap bolter range also helps when doing this.

I agree with this, except I actually do like missile launchers, and greatly prefer scouts to intercessors as my bubble wrap / worthless objective holder units. Neither unit does much, and are not particularly worth shooting at over other units, and scouts are cheaper and have better deployment options, which i feel is very important this edition with how many power deepstrike and first turn charge options exist in the meta.

The “distraction” force can be anything, but, I’ve been starting to lean more towards the idea of TH/SS Termies with a Librarian and/or Reivers. While I like the idea of Centurions or flamer Aggressors, if you don’t get first turn, then if your opponent it mobile, they are pretty much out of the game straight away. As for bolter Aggressors, i'd rather just take units of bolter Inceptors as when shooting MEQs, a squad of 3 performs almost as well as a squad of 6 Aggressors shooting twice for 78 points less. I’m also not sold on Vanguard vets right now. In 7th, I found they died way to easily, even with 2 or 3 SS’s in the squad (using the SSKT formation), and they never killed enough to earn their points back either. Things die even quicker now, so, unless they get a mega first turn, I’m not sure they are worth it. HOWEVER, one tactic that I’ve not seen used is to have them with jump packs and SftS with them. This essentially turns them into Harlequins with a 12” move on the first turn, allowing them to jump over screening units to get at the characters behind in a first turn charge. Overall, I still think they are too much of a suicide unit.
Reivers are an interesting choice. With SftS you don’t have to pay the (small amount of) points for the deep-strike options and you get a first turn charge and can make use of the grenades. These for me are there to support your main assault unit, by stopping the overwatch, while also being somewhat ok at chewing through screens.

I think I will try some VVs with double chainswords sometime, as they are fairly cheap for what they do, and might be able to mess up some infantry units if they get close enough. Chainsword / plasma pistol seems like the other best option, but either way the chance to not go first and have them be considerably less useful makes me not want to SftS them, and 9" charges mean I have to have a Librarian with Veil of Time (for the re-rolls to charge) around or I feel like making the charge is too much of a crap shoot, and at that point i've invested a lot of points in, as you say, a unit that dies pretty easily.

TH/SS Termies are a must if you SftS instead of deep-striking. They are there to be a “oh ####” unit to your opponent on the first turn so will attract a lot of firepower. But, this then means the other 80 odd % of your army can do what it wants.
I’ve also toyed with the idea of running Shrike with the Termies and a Librarian as a mini ball of death that can assault without issue first turn. Shrike would not be my warlord in this case though, as he’d be very much be “behind enemy lines” killing characters with the help from the Librarian. 7 models for around 650 points, seems worth it…. Right??

The only issue I see with this plan, and really SftS and deepstrike in general, is that a lot of the good armies have a fair amount of bubblewrap. Conscripts, scouts, cultists, etc. If they know you are coming, a lot of armies can give you limited options on what that first turn charge can effect. This (effecting how the enemy deploys etc) is a strength in and of itself, but it also means they effectively decide what units you get to charge even if you do end up going first. For deepstrike, I would still be wary of putting too many points into high points models that HAVE to drop in on the first (or maybe the second) turn in order to do anything/be useful/not leaving 1400 points of your army facing 2000 points of their until there is a good time to drop in. And for SftS, taking too many units that really need the first turn to be useful seems like it could be a mistake. Not only do you have to deploy more conservatively, you also have to weather a turn of fire from the enemy (as a power melee unit is likely to be a priority), and the enemy has an opportunity to move farther away from your units if it needs to, almost entirely negating the advantages of SftSing a melee unit in the first place. For this reason, I think it might actually be better to SftS in shooting units that want the first turn, but don't NEED it. The incoming and already widely accepted changes to how first turn is decided cement a lot of this even more for me, as it really means you can't/shouldn't count on first turn no matter how you build your list.

My current list is a battalion and an air wing.
2 captains with jump packs and plasma
2 units of 5 bolter scouts
1 unit of 5 Intercessors
1 unit of 5 Reviers
1 Redemptor Dread
1 unit of 3 plasma Inceptors
1 unit of 5 Devs with 4 lascannons
1 Leviathan Dread with Grav Flux
2 Stormtalons with heavy bolters
1 Xiphon

The only unit I’d SftS in would be the Reivers as a mini distraction while they, and the 2 units of scouts also provide deep-strike protection across pretty much the entire “no man’s land” area. The Inceptors, while expensive, are a tough unit that can deal a lot of damage to elite units and will run with one of the captains for the re-rolls. These would hover around 16-17” away from enemy units to give a better chance of keeping the -1 to hit bubble (not guaranteed, but, by positioning to kill the closest unit each time, it provides an extra few inches of buffer). Leviathan will just walk up the table and should survive the first few turns due to it always getting the -1 to hit benefit until the scouts die. It is expensive in points, but will destroy everything on the table from hordes to tanks. Redemptor, Devs and last Captain are a mini fire base at the back supported slightly by the Intercessors. The 2 Stormtalons are simply anti horde, and the Xiphon both anti FLY and anti-tank.

Now, I’m not sure on how consistent the Inceptors will be, or whether 3 flyers is “too much”. Likewise, I’m still debating the Redemptor. I had originally planned to use 3 units of Intercessors, but, for the same cost I could get 2 units of scouts and a unit of Reivers, which, I feel do the intended job a bit better.

I’m sure a lot of you might have some thoughts and ideas around my list and my thoughts, so feel free to build on it and adapt it!

It is hard for me to comment on this because i haven't played with a ton of FW units, but it looks fun and i'd love to play against something like it to see what it is like. I am very skeptical of all of the primaris units as being overpriced and fairly ineffective, but YMMV.

The problem raven guard face is forge world

Lyas issander does literally everything you want raven guard to do with their deployment shenanigans, but better cause he does it cheaper in cp

For me, I feel like I prefer what the stratagem offers me, more than I do Lias’ infiltrate abilities. And, let’s face it, you shouldn’t need both really. Sure, it costs CP, but, I feel the extra movement phase is well worth it, even if it is only to all but ensure a 1st turn charge. If I’m only running Lias to get shooty units in place, then, I feel it’s a somewhat expensive way to get some Sternguard up the table. You could use a drop pod for less points, and, you also run the risk of not being able to put them in a suitable position if your opponent deploys properly and you don’t have first turn.

First off, love the post! I must admit to enjoying good, if sometimes lengthy, discussions about things like this!

jcd386 wrote:

Spoiler:

So, I would argue that with all plasma heavy unit’s you need to be running them with hit re-rolls, simply for survivability.

Also, I’d argue that the devastators are likely to die before the hellblasters in most situations, even when within rapid fire range. This is simply down to the fact that that the hellblasters will have twice as many wounds. Chances are, the hellblasters will also be getting the -1 to hit a lot of the time, but, even if they don’t, you still need an additional 30 bolter shots to kill them over the devs. They also have an additional 6” range over the devs and won’t suffer the -1 to hit. When looking at it, non-overcharging hellblasters aren’t that far behind in terms of “models killed on average”, especially once you consider both weapons will only be doing 1 wound a shot anyway.
For clarity, (considering the -1 to hit for moving with the grav)–
Vs Meq – Grav is better as it kills 1 marine more than the plas
Vs Teq – plasma is better when you overcharge
Vs guardsmen – plasma is better, but, on average they both do the same amount of “kills”
Vs t5+ - plasma is better if you overcharge

1. Yes, i also think you should have re-rolls, but that means you have to spend more CP to SftS a HQ, or buy a jump pack, etc. Definitely not a reason not to do any of those things, and honestly i would want re-rolls for the grav too, but hellblasters REQUIRE more babysitting to not kill themselves, which i do see as a general con.
2. You are right it takes more bolters to kill hellblasters than devs, but the way i see it, a smart opponent is more likely to use plasma and other 2 damage weapons against you, and will likely be able to do so, since you are fairly close to them by nature of being in rapid fire range, and this makes them in practice about the same durability as the devs, or less so if the enemy is within 12". I know most of my lists can take some hits from hellblasters, and then probably kill them with reasonable effectiveness.
3. If you SftS the Devs, you won't count as moving with the Grav, since you will just appear in range of what you want to hit, and not move in the movement phase. This may be where our numbers differ.

Hellblasters wouldn’t suffer the penalty. (wasn’t taking using SftS with them into account…Oops.) My only concern is that, without first turn, the Devs will just get shot off the table straight away.
A jump pack captain is around 109 points with a combi-plas, so, I agree this is something that might be too much for using with the Devs, but, I feel as though it might be worth it for the Hellblasters – or at least a standard captain on foot and walking them up the table instead of SftS with them. The 30” range gives you the option, even if it costs you a turn or 2 of rapid fire. This too, would give the Hellblasters more exposure to the -1 to hit tactic.
I’m also leaning more towards agreeing that things like Primaris give plasma squads etc a definitive target, so survivability would be irrelevant, but, I think it will change battle on battle due to deployment and the many options we have. Right now, I’m thinking of footslogging Hellblasters instead of StfS grav Devs, as this potentially gives you more options in regards to keeping them alive. But then, there is the whole argument over whether “safer is better” due to how quickly things die now.

jcd386 wrote:

Spoiler:

For me,the key units for making the most of the -1 to hit tactic are devestators (pref with lascannons), fire support dreadnoughts and Intercessors. Now, the Intercessors won’t “kill” much, but, due to their 2 wounds and the -1 to hit, they can make excellent, durable, mid-to-back field objective holders. Their 30” -1ap bolter range also helps when doing this.

I agree with this, except I actually do like missile launchers, and greatly prefer scouts to intercessors as my bubble wrap / worthless objective holder units. Neither unit does much, and are not particularly worth shooting at over other units, and scouts are cheaper and have better deployment options, which i feel is very important this edition with how many power deepstrike and first turn charge options exist in the meta.

If I’m honest, I’ve not really given missile launchers much thought, beyond potentially putting one in a scout squad to make use of the flakk missile stratagem. I feel like with the amount of standard bolter etc shot we have access to, we don’t really need the frag missile option, so, might as well take a better krak missile in the lascannon. Scouts for me (standard version anyway) are simply road blocks and deep-strike deniers if I’m honest. I feel like they are one/two turn wonders, but beyond that don’t really offer much unless you play conservatively with them. This, I feel, is where the Intercessors step in. With a greater range and more likely to be outside of initial melee range, they prove difficult to remove. 100 points is a lot for this, but, the same amount of wounds in a tact squad or scout squad would cost more. I also tend to feel like deep-strike denier units tend to get focused pretty early, especially if your opponent has several units they want to deep-strike.

jcd386 wrote:
I think I will try some VVs with double chainswords sometime, as they are fairly cheap for what they do, and might be able to mess up some infantry units if they get close enough. Chainsword / plasma pistol seems like the other best option, but either way the chance to not go first and have them be considerably less useful makes me not want to SftS them, and 9" charges mean I have to have a Librarian with Veil of Time (for the re-rolls to charge) around or I feel like making the charge is too much of a crap shoot, and at that point i've invested a lot of points in, as you say, a unit that dies pretty easily.

VV with double chainsword are interesting at 4 attacks each, but, the main problem I have with VVs is that I feel like they are too dependent on having something like a unit of conscripts around to focus on. As soon as you start looking at marines and orks, they drop off so much. Though, double plasma pistol VVs are also interesting, if expensive. I’d also prob only ever run them with Shrike to get the charge re-roll for free, as they then become more of a semi useful bodyguard with good threat against t3 units. I just don’t think they are flexible or durable enough for a melee unit. There is a case for running them with PAs/PMs and SSs but a unit of 5 then costs 135-140points and drops a load of attacks. For me, shooting is king with Space Marines, unless the melee unit is an extremely durable distraction.

jcd386 wrote:
The only issue I see with this plan, and really SftS and deepstrike in general, is that a lot of the good armies have a fair amount of bubblewrap. Conscripts, scouts, cultists, etc. If they know you are coming, a lot of armies can give you limited options on what that first turn charge can effect. This (effecting how the enemy deploys etc) is a strength in and of itself, but it also means they effectively decide what units you get to charge even if you do end up going first. For deepstrike, I would still be wary of putting too many points into high points models that HAVE to drop in on the first (or maybe the second) turn in order to do anything/be useful/not leaving 1400 points of your army facing 2000 points of their until there is a good time to drop in. And for SftS, taking too many units that really need the first turn to be useful seems like it could be a mistake. Not only do you have to deploy more conservatively, you also have to weather a turn of fire from the enemy (as a power melee unit is likely to be a priority), and the enemy has an opportunity to move farther away from your units if it needs to, almost entirely negating the advantages of SftSing a melee unit in the first place. For this reason, I think it might actually be better to SftS in shooting units that want the first turn, but don't NEED it. The incoming and already widely accepted changes to how first turn is decided cement a lot of this even more for me, as it really means you can't/shouldn't count on first turn no matter how you build your list.

Charging a 50 man conscript squad with the TH/SS termies, isn’t ideal, I agree, but, SftS ensures you have a viable threat already set where you want it, whereas, deep-striking could mean you miss out on where you want the unit if you go 2nd. Alternatively, you could mix the unit to include 3 LC termies to help with horde mincing… But… the more we talk about it, the more I think, with the current meta (which will hopefully change with the IG codex in Nov), do I even want to be in combat with a big unit of my own? Suddenly, I’m feeling a couple of units of Reivers instead and then spend the extra 70 points somewhere else.

jcd386 wrote:
It is hard for me to comment on this because i haven't played with a ton of FW units, but it looks fun and i'd love to play against something like it to see what it is like. I am very skeptical of all of the primaris units as being overpriced and fairly ineffective, but YMMV.

Primaris, I’m with you on the over-priced aspect, but I feel like their potential is there. Reivers I need to do more testing with, and the Inceptors, I feel like they have the volume of shots to be worthwhile – it’s just whether or not you can keep them alive and shooting. Redemptor I can’t make my mind up on. I’ve not seen it enough to be convinced either way.

jcd386 wrote:
Something worth mentioning is you could take a Raptors detachment with Lias and whatever, and then a Raven-guard detachment with stuff you want to spec CP to deploy. This is also a way to get Shrike and Lias, or spend 3 CP to have a second chapter master for your fire-base while Lias does stuff closer to the front.

You can use the rg stratagem for raptors. They are successors. They get the strategems

Oh yeah, you're right, the strat also works for successors. By bad.

I like the missiles because i do find that the frag is useful vs infantry, and infantry seem to be popular.

I've also been looking at the dual plasma VV. With two shots at 12", they have the same firepower within 12 (and cost about the same) as other kinds of vets with plasma guns, plus they fly, and fight decently well in HtH. Can occasionally land a charge from 9" with Shrike's reroll, and Shrike or a captain lets them overcharge to pop a vehicle on landing.

Of course they would evaporate when anything shoots at them, which is why I'm modeling up 3 units of 5, looking at maybe eventually having 5-6 units, maybe one with dual grav pistols and one with power weaps for the best use of SFtS.

Also was playing around with different combinations of scouts and realized that, unlike the old codex, you can now mix sniper rifles into bolter units. So I've been giving a sniper rifle to the sergeant and maybe one other scout in each unit of 5. Forces the opponent to kill every single scout to get rid of all the sniping, and makes the scouts an annoying threat at a fraction of the cost of a heavy weapon.

Hrmm, I know there's already a lot of Scout armament discussion elsewhere, so I'll phrase it more as, does anyone think the RG tactics make any weapon better? Part of me was thinking I'd have a few up with my SftS group, so maybe shotguns, but realistically I'm dubious on getting their 6" bonus over bolters. Sniper rifles are better with the -1 to be hit, but sniper rifles also strike me as too expensive for the effect. It'd take all 15 Scouts in my list to put 2 wounds on a target per round. That's too slow to get much game effect, especially if the Scouts are also my bubble wrap and likely to get cleared out round 1.

bort wrote:
Hrmm, I know there's already a lot of Scout armament discussion elsewhere, so I'll phrase it more as, does anyone think the RG tactics make any weapon better? Part of me was thinking I'd have a few up with my SftS group, so maybe shotguns, but realistically I'm dubious on getting their 6" bonus over bolters. Sniper rifles are better with the -1 to be hit, but sniper rifles also strike me as too expensive for the effect. It'd take all 15 Scouts in my list to put 2 wounds on a target per round. That's too slow to get much game effect, especially if the Scouts are also my bubble wrap and likely to get cleared out round 1.

Sniper Rifle Scouts outperform Tactical Marines from 12.1"-36", but have the added effect of being better vs certain targets at rapid fire range too. Just be sure to add the ML for more effectiveness.

Otherwise I'm sticking with Shotguns and CCW. Sniper is good in like two squads or so though.

Sure, they're like a bolter at 12.1" plus a low chance at a mortal wound. But they're also 4pts more per model, so now costing more than that tactical marine. That's like buying 1 mortal wound per round the scouts survive for 36pts, right? Not a bad deal if they live all game, but if they just get killed round 1 to get them out of the way then I dunno if that's worth it. I'd rather buy 6 HKs, for example. Much better round 1 effect.

bort wrote:
Sure, they're like a bolter at 12.1" plus a low chance at a mortal wound. But they're also 4pts more per model, so now costing more than that tactical marine. That's like buying 1 mortal wound per round the scouts survive for 36pts, right? Not a bad deal if they live all game, but if they just get killed round 1 to get them out of the way then I dunno if that's worth it. I'd rather buy 6 HKs, for example. Much better round 1 effect.

Well the Tactical Marine is garbage so who cares if it's a point more?

For me, sniper scouts are only worth it if you have 2 or 3 units of them, at which point, it gets a bit expensive in my mind.

If you can't reliably kill a 4 wound character each turn then it's not worth it in my mind.

I only want the scouts for their deployment ability to bubble wrap my good stuff, so i wouldn't put any more points into them than i have to.

Kdash wrote:
For me, sniper scouts are only worth it if you have 2 or 3 units of them, at which point, it gets a bit expensive in my mind.

If you can't reliably kill a 4 wound character each turn then it's not worth it in my mind.

If you're milking for CP, you're gonna be buying scouts anyway since Tactical Marines suck. If you're not using them as bubble wrap it's a good objective camping choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
I only want the scouts for their deployment ability to bubble wrap my good stuff, so i wouldn't put any more points into them than i have to.

This here too. A combi-plasma and all Shotguns is good enough for my bubble wrapping needs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
For me, sniper scouts are only worth it if you have 2 or 3 units of them, at which point, it gets a bit expensive in my mind.

If you can't reliably kill a 4 wound character each turn then it's not worth it in my mind.

If you're milking for CP, you're gonna be buying scouts anyway since Tactical Marines suck. If you're not using them as bubble wrap it's a good objective camping choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
I only want the scouts for their deployment ability to bubble wrap my good stuff, so i wouldn't put any more points into them than i have to.

This here too. A combi-plasma and all Shotguns is good enough for my bubble wrapping needs.

I just run mine with boltguns. I prefer the range of the boltguns to the +1 str if i happen to be within 6" with the shotguns. My scouts spend a lot of time just holding a flank, so i'd rather a few long range boltgun shots to nothing. Similarly, I leave the plasma out because the scouts die very easily, aren't usually positioned as to be in rapid fire range, and 1-2 plasma shots isn't that effective anyway, especially if you aren't in a re-roll aura, which seems somewhat hit or miss when it comes to scouts, since they are usually farther away from other units. It also makes my scouts more worthless targets for the enemy, as killing them isn't really subtracting much from my damage output. I still wouldn't say it's bad, per se, but that is my preference and my reasoning for it.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
For me, sniper scouts are only worth it if you have 2 or 3 units of them, at which point, it gets a bit expensive in my mind.

If you can't reliably kill a 4 wound character each turn then it's not worth it in my mind.

If you're milking for CP, you're gonna be buying scouts anyway since Tactical Marines suck. If you're not using them as bubble wrap it's a good objective camping choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
I only want the scouts for their deployment ability to bubble wrap my good stuff, so i wouldn't put any more points into them than i have to.

This here too. A combi-plasma and all Shotguns is good enough for my bubble wrapping needs.

I just run mine with boltguns. I prefer the range of the boltguns to the +1 str if i happen to be within 6" with the shotguns. My scouts spend a lot of time just holding a flank, so i'd rather a few long range boltgun shots to nothing. Similarly, I leave the plasma out because the scouts die very easily, aren't usually positioned as to be in rapid fire range, and 1-2 plasma shots isn't that effective anyway, especially if you aren't in a re-roll aura, which seems somewhat hit or miss when it comes to scouts, since they are usually farther away from other units. It also makes my scouts more worthless targets for the enemy, as killing them isn't really subtracting much from my damage output. I still wouldn't say it's bad, per se, but that is my preference and my reasoning for it.

Being able to advance if you need an objective held and fire is more than worth it. Plus getting closer combos with the S5 bonus, though it doesn't come up as often as just needing to advance.

Yeah that makes sense. I can't say that I've ever advanced with scouts before, though.

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah that makes sense. I can't say that I've ever advanced with scouts before, though.

Probably because they can be at the location you want in the first place compared to Tactical Marines. As you play aggressive opponents you'll need it more though.

I don't look at Lias as an alternative to SftS. He is a chapter master that can give you three free drop pods without having to use any CP. Even if all you do is shift your Gunline a little forward, or use it to make sure your fire base is able to counter deploy in your own deployment zone I don't feel it is wasted. It should also b mentioned that he is great with foots loggers because of the extra inch to move, advance rolls, and charge rolls that he gives to units near him. The only downside to him is if you hate the color green or you wanted a good melee character, because without an invuln he is vulnerable in combat even with a decent sword.

For scouts I typically run shotguns, with a combat knife on the sergeant. Sniper Rifles I like in theory, but in practice they have done very little for me. If you do take them I think you need 10 minimum. Also camo cloaks are never worth it IMHO. I usually mix Intercessors and scouts. Intercessors as a more durabl front line for my foot force and scouts for covering flanks if I am worrying about deep striking or setting up fire positions and objective camping.

My success with Hellblasters is also in part b cause I don't use them in a vacuum. I always bring a banner, apothecary, and Rhino Primaris with them, otherwise I leave them at home and opt for long range Devon squads (Lascannons and Missile Launchers). Having that support they wreak havoc on anything. 2 wound models that you don't want to use plasma against because you are getting -1 to hit... Meaning you blow yourself up easier, and if you do manage to kill them they have a good chance of getting a free super charged shot off at you and then a good chance of coming back to life next turn. Damage output wise simply having a +1 to hit gives them the chance of killing a Land Raider in one turn of shooting if they are within 15". I have done this and your opponent will never forget it either. Hellblasters with +1 to hit super charging is one of the best damage dealers we have both in terms of raw damage output as well as point efficient killing.