SirDonlad wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:


Just had a read of the wikia of Drach'nyan - trippy stuff and quite cool, i'll bet the writer had a rubbing hands moment over source material!
Whats the jazz with the daemon needing the 'agreement' of the chaos gods in order to possess a human?

Deamons dont need the agreement of a mortals or gods to possess anything that I am aware of, however IIRC it creates a better bond and thus a more powerful Possessed host.

Off the top of my head though there are several types of Possessed.

Gal Vorbak: This is a literal bonding of both the Deamon and the Hosts soul, rather than one consuming the other, the Deamon tried to find the best host possible and if it doenst find one, it kills the prospective host, or leaves it an empty shell, should the deamon find the perfect host then the process seems to take more time for the bonding, though this could just be it biding its time, the end result is a much more powerful possessed marine than the current 40k ones.

Deamonhost: the forceful, or not, possession of the deamon on a host, by an outside force, so for example a Deamon Prince called Cherubael was bound to a host body but not of its own will, this creates differing levels of power in the Deamonhost, but all are still incredibly powerful.

Possessed space marine: This one is a bit sketchy on details, there seems to be several ways for it to happen, a Deamon is bound to the dead body of a space marine, a space marine willingly allows a Deamon to possess him, but this is not the same method of possession as the Gal Vorbak, as its any deamon with no care about the host, the last one I am aware of is the binding of a deamon to a marine and the marine winning the battle of wills and either expelling the deamon (but retaining some of its power) or overpowering the deamon and being in control of its power.

Psyker possession: this is your bulk standard horror scenario.

Mundane Possession: A normal human or other xenos that is possessed unwillingly.

Cool, cheers for that, it does still leave me in the dark a bit on that specific 'agreement' with the chaos gods thing, but very intresting nonetheless - i appreciate how much of a pita it is to write up quotes/info of any length when on a forum.
i come at this from a point of ignorance, not having read any of the books or even owning any of the black library and the whole 'daemons not needing permission to possess' kinda complicates the setting given the story of Drach'nyan - i think ketara might be on the money with the heirarchical dominance structure theory, but the stuff available on the web just leaves it underexplained and raises the question of why the big four don't just assimilate it as soon as it introduces itself.

I'd love to input, but without the relevant books i'm munching popcorn on the sidelines and shouting at the referee..

Spoiler:

 Formosa wrote:

You have been snarky from the start

Not quite. I've been getting progressively brusquer as this exchange as gone on, but that's primarily due to you keeping on sidestepping my request for some form of substantiation for your views (or providing examples that in no way match what you claimed). Starts to feel a bit like I'm wasting my time.

And you have basically proven my point in all you comments so far, you lack a basic understanding of how Chaos works and the Warp, you keep trying to dismiss Liber Chaotica, which you have been told repeatedly had been referenced in 40k,

Repeating something ad infinitum doesn't make it true. To reiterate, if you're so convinced about it, go and start a thread in this sub-forum stating that a book written from the point of view of an Empire historian in the now defunct Warhammer Fantasy world is canon for Warhammer 40K . Should be fun to watch.

1: I carried on as I was half way through an explanation, again you tried to derail it, I ignored your weak attempt to bait me into diverting from my explanation.

.....you literally have to scroll up the page to see you asking me 'Before I continue, do you have any issue with that?' Answering in the negative to a clear question is hardly 'bait' now, is it? Because if so, we're well into the Twilight Zone now.

2: No it is not "This is utterly incoherent and contradictory to the basic established fluff relating to the warp." it draws from the established fluff, if you read it like you claim, you would recognise this.

'If I claim'. I mean, seriously? Because people with no knowledge of 40K fluff regularly go onto 40K forums and pretend they do in order to debate the finer mechanics behind the Universe? I mean, I could upload a photograph of the shelf behind me full of 40K books, but come on. Really?

another clear example that you dont really understand what you are talking about, this is one of the central tenets of how chaos works, the gods are made up of emotions as well as souls.

I'm well aware of that very basic fact. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I'm asking for a source for the statement that emotions which 'lie in the gray area' get fought over between the Gods, and that this is what the 'Great Game' is. It might well be true, but I don't recall reading it in the past, so I'm curious to know if this is actually canon or just another one of your theories.

Simply as it demonstrated no "god" specific abilities or tempermant, based on the info we have had over those books, this is a good conclusion to come to, if you disagree please explain why.

The answer could also be as simple as 'they weren't displayed at that point in time'. It's basic logic. A lack of evidence for something doesn't mean that exists. I don't point to Cegorach and say 'He never said he's not an ally of Tzeentch, so he must be one'. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I am saying that this is something you've made up. There is no proof or evidence in any particular direction.

It is, in short, what one would call 'headcanon'. Where we make something up about the fluff that doesn't have a clear answer in line with how we understand the 40K verse to work. Which is absolutely great and fine, but the trick here is to be very aware of where the line between 'Canon' and 'Headcanon' is demarcated.

Again you seem not to grasp the whole picture and can only see the small part of it, the examples exist, you have tried to ignore some I have given you, thats fine, it just shows that all you have done is read Lexicanum or one of the other sites and not the actual fluff in the books.

In other words 'You've pointed out how my examples don't work, but instead of actually showing how they do, I'm just going to insist you must be ignorant'.

To your second point there, yet another example of lack of understanding,

Is this how you try and boost your self esteem or something? Because I'm amazed at how often you manage to squeeze accusations of ignorance into a basic debate over fluff. I mean, this is like the fifth time in roughly a three paragraph reply and we're not even done yet. If you spent half as much time actually substantiating what you say as you do throwing insults, we might actually get somewhere.

you even go on later to explain to someone else that deamons exist outside of the gods, and yet here claim it must be a god, and your calling me contradictory....

Of course they do. Working on the basis that I might not have been entirely clear, a Chaos God is just a really big daemon. 'Daemon' is a word with a variable meaning, it essentially has the same meaning/connotations as 'warp entity'. Chaos Gods? Daemons. If an Eldar Soul swallowed a few others and got powerful enough to swim about on it's own? Daemon. If a bigger daemon (Chaos God) splits bits of itself off to make smaller self aware fragments? They're daemons too.

This is because warp entities themselves don't actually call themselves 'Daemons', there are several cases of daemons laughing when called that, and then rejecting the title and dubbing themselves 'the Neverborn' or some such. 'Daemon' is just what people in the normal world call an unexpected warp entity.

They create the vortex, check, they draw from the vortex, check, the vortex empowers them, check, eventually the vortex they have made it strong enough to allow them to assend, so all of this is done by the individual, using the warp, they have asended themselves, not the gods, they are likely to associate it with the gods in ignorance. So its still invoking the power of the warp to get the power they want.

Okay. So you're claiming that despite him begging the Chaos Gods to raise him up, sacrificing in their name, ascending in their name, and so on, it was really this self generated warp power that somehow slipped the bounds of reality to elevate him, and he just doesn't know about it?

Tell me guv, have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Pilau Rice wrote:Indeed, is Perturabo even a Daemon Prince now? I don't see why he wouldn't be but as we have established, if not old, fluff to say he is. But I got the feeling from the Death Guard Codex that he wasn't. Just from the way the battle between them went. No mention of 2 might Daemon Princes or anything.

 SirDonlad wrote:

i come at this from a point of ignorance, not having read any of the books or even owning any of the black library and the whole 'daemons not needing permission to possess' kinda complicates the setting given the story of Drach'nyan - i think ketara might be on the money with the heirarchical dominance structure theory, but the stuff available on the web just leaves it underexplained and raises the question of why the big four don't just assimilate it as soon as it introduces itself.

 Ketara wrote:

Well, he's always mentioned as being a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. Given it hasn't been retconned yet, and assuming we're excluding the magical self fulfilling ascension theory, he must have been raised collectively by the Chaos Gods at a later date. Likely post-heresy after he fled to the Eye. He would have been too useful a potential pawn to leave running around on his own, much like Alpharius/Omegon (if they're alive).

 JamesY wrote:
Just a quick one on Barbarn Falk, his ascension to daemonhood was fuelled by Tzeentch. I've recently reread storm of iron and, although not mentioned by name, it is clear that that is who he worships.

Ketara wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:

i come at this from a point of ignorance, not having read any of the books or even owning any of the black library and the whole 'daemons not needing permission to possess' kinda complicates the setting given the story of Drach'nyan - i think ketara might be on the money with the heirarchical dominance structure theory, but the stuff available on the web just leaves it underexplained and raises the question of why the big four don't just assimilate it as soon as it introduces itself.

I would imagine it's a question of strategy. Given that it is strong enough to face the Emperor, it would likely require a significant expenditure of energy from any one of the Big 4 to best it, leaving whichever one chose to do so vulnerable to countermoves by the other three. The Great Game never stopped in the daemonic realm despite the Heresy, after all, and weakening yourself to eliminate a minor-God level warp entity is likely not a particularly attractive option. Letting him throw himself at the fifth player at the table though? Not a problem there!

Formosa wrote:So I have been thinking about Drach'Nyan, this is a little complicated but bare with me.

When he showed up around the other Deamons they were afraid of him, Deamons... afraid, this is very unusual to say the least, the only other being that I am aware of that Deamons have been afraid of is the Big E. It is possible (but still unlikely) that the gods themselves were afraid to take it on, given its purpose, the ender of empires, its a god killer, we know in the past that other deamons have become strong enough to take on the chaos gods, Hereticus refers to a Deamon King that fought (and lost) what we can assume to be Tzeench, the fight took millions of years (in the warp, as otherwise this would be post necrons, pre humanity) but eventually the Deamon king lost and was expelled from the Warp into real space, this would have expended a lot of power leaving the Chaos god in question weakened enough for the other 2 gods (there were only 3 at the time, slaanesh is noted as "missing" from the story, and Eisenhorn considers asking an eldar seer why).

So long story short the other gods may not have absorbed Drach'Nyan as they may not have been able to, given its nature, as it was both older than them and younger.... bloody warp, and could possibly have been able to defeat them.

Pilau Rice wrote:Geneseed is Ascension currency