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 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau, outside of commanders, drones, crisis suits, y'vhara, and a couple other things, need a buff. And with those buffs, commanders should be toned down a tiny bit.

Not gonna argue with that, because I know it to be true.

THAT BEING SAID! Would you suggest giving these upgrades to Marines without any increased cost? Also, what would you do for the rest of their weapons?

No increased cost. Power armored marines are straight up TERRIBLE right now.

I'm more interested in the base kit right now.

As far as guns go, i'd probably change as follows:

Heavy Bolter - 6 shots, strength 6, Ap-2; 1 damage.

Grav cannon & Grav amp - 6 shots, strength *, AP-3, wounds vehicles & MCs on a 4+, wounds everything else on a 6+. 2 damage.

the special weapons are in a sorry state. I'm not sure how exactly to make them not suck awful.

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Tau, outside of commanders, drones, crisis suits, y'vhara, and a couple other things, need a buff. And with those buffs, commanders should be toned down a tiny bit.

Not gonna argue with that, because I know it to be true.

THAT BEING SAID! Would you suggest giving these upgrades to Marines without any increased cost? Also, what would you do for the rest of their weapons?

No increased cost. Power armored marines are straight up TERRIBLE right now.

I'm more interested in the base kit right now.

As far as guns go, i'd probably change as follows:

Heavy Bolter - 6 shots, strength 6, Ap-2; 1 damage.

Grav cannon & Grav amp - 6 shots, strength *, AP-3, wounds vehicles & MCs on a 4+, wounds everything else on a 6+. 2 damage.

the special weapons are in a sorry state. I'm not sure how exactly to make them not suck awful.

And with a 6 shot S 6 AP -2, what do you propose for the Assault Cannon?

*snicker snicker*

Just ignore the mathematically-challenged troll. Every person who thinks marines are "fine" I've cornered into posting a list posts a giant pile of fail.

Just for the benefit of the mathematically-challenged, S6 -2 AP is being picked because that's the theoretical weapon threshold for removing hordes efficiently and not auto-losing to them.

I would look at weapon costings, special weapons aren't so much bad as they are bad for what they cost. And then there's the relative costs compared to each other.

As for base kit, i think what needs to happen is to incentivize the boltgun family of weapons, which will buff marine infantry in general. I'd go the route of special issue ammo like it was in 6th/7th. So all standard infantry space marines (assault, tactical, devastator - specifically excluding scouts here as they're the 'cheap' alternative) with bolt weapons can choose which ammo type they're shooting with. With options like increased range, increased damage, increased ap, increased rate of fire, etc.

I think the special weapons are very much overcosted, especially given how much the final model ends up costing and how easy they are to delete in 8th.

 Marmatag wrote:
My proposed change would be:

Every squad of space marines (in any codex, or any chapter, so BA, SW, GK, DA, and all SM get this) can select from the following specializations for a squad of marines.

1. Ranged Specialization
Marines suffer a -1 penalty to weapon skill.
Marines gain a +1 to ballistic skill.

2. Melee Specialization
Marines suffer a -1 penalty to ballistic skill.
Marines gain +1 weapon skill.

3. Tactical Specialization
Marines can take an additional special or heavy weapon in a squad of 5, and two additional special or heavy weapons in a squad of 10.

Additionally, I would change their wargear as follows:
1. All marines in a unit can throw grenades. They all have them on their belt.
2. Boltgun profile updated to str 5, ap-1, Bolt Rifle updated to str6 ap-2, storm bolter updated to str 5 ap-1.
3. Chainswords updated to Str 5, ap-1

And fundamental changes to profiles as follows:
1. Assault marines gain +1 base attack. This also includes melee specialists like death company, strike squads, etc.
2. Devastator squads armor cherub is changed so that it can activate to allow the squad to move and fire without penalty to ballistic skill.
3. All marines base movement increased by 2", including terminators. Power armor marines always run the full 6".

Honestly this is just too over the top.

Is it? How much would it change a game vs IG?

Martel732 wrote:
Just ignore the mathematically-challenged troll. Every person who thinks marines are "fine" I've cornered into posting a list posts a giant pile of fail.

Just for the benefit of the mathematically-challenged, S6 -2 AP is being picked because that's the theoretical weapon threshold for removing hordes efficiently and not auto-losing to them.

And what change do you propose for marines when our IG bretheren field two dozen of these dreamlike heavy bolters? Like, how far is this thought through?

I'm not proposing that fix. I admit I don't know how to fix the marines. But I'm not pretending there isn't a problem with generalists in 40K a a rule.

And what you point is a good reason not to do this. I freely admit that as well. It's a hard problem. But many pretend that there is no problem. The Girlyman castle lists are a huge red flag that there is a problem, though.

What we're dealing with here is a granularity problem again. There is not enough mathematical space for conscripts, guardsmen, Orks, grots, etc to be differentiated from each other accurately by the system. So we end up with 3 pt conscripts.

Martel732 wrote:
Is it? How much would it change a game vs IG?

It's very underwhelming when a giant pile of powerful special rules doesn't make a difference. Seventh edition bowling banshees, for example, could move 18" a turn, were immune to overwatch, had ASF, and still didn't make an impact.

Because they couldn't hurt a wolfstar or super friends in CC.

Here's a proposed fix that would prooobably require a lot of rewriting in other areas, but is worth mentioning:
Don't change Tactical Marines exactly, change Captains and Lieutenants. (And the Land Raider Excelsior, I suppose.)

Change their buffs so that it's re-rolls on 1s... Unless the unit is a Tactical Marine squad, in which case you re-roll all failed to hits.

Thoughts?

But you still have terrible firepower to reroll. No one cares about tacs getting rerolls.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Here's a proposed fix that would prooobably require a lot of rewriting in other areas, but is worth mentioning:
Don't change Tactical Marines exactly, change Captains and Lieutenants. (And the Land Raider Excelsior, I suppose.)

Change their buffs so that it's re-rolls on 1s... Unless the unit is a Tactical Marine squad, in which case you re-roll all failed to hits.

Thoughts?

Except that doesn't make sense that makes them better shots than Sternguard.

Assault marines and tac marines should be same cost.
Bolter should be a better gun than a pistol.
But with the jump pack movement added to pistol range, ass marines should have the same effective range as the bolter.
Ass marines should have an extra attack in cc.
Tac marines should have better overwatch or a stand your ground special rule, something like that, as they should be the best objective holders in the game.
Ass marines should have some bonus to charge strength when jumping into combat.
Tacs should have more access to special and heavy guns.
Ass marines should have more access to cc weapons.
All Marines should have two wounds.
A base marine should cost about four base orks.
EFF primaris with a dry knobby stick.

Martel732 wrote:What we're dealing with here is a granularity problem again. There is not enough mathematical space for conscripts, guardsmen, Orks, grots, etc to be differentiated from each other accurately by the system. So we end up with 3 pt conscripts.

It's not just a granularity problem, its the end result of decades of power creep. Marines *should* have a weakness to being overwhelmed by firepower, the question is how much of a weakness before they themselves become overpowered. Conscripts are just flat out broken, although in fairness it's their interaction with the commissar that makes them so powerful. Subject them to morale, and they get hit a lot harder. The morale system is pretty punishing when it's actually in play, the problem comes when low-leadership armies get to ignore it. I wouldn't base the power level of marines on what is hopefully an outlier unit.

jeff white wrote:Assault marines and tac marines should be same cost.

I disagree, because it's much easier to dps at range without moving than it is to get into 12" range of the enemy to be able to do damage. In olden days, there were benefits to melee. Now, not so much. Not to say there's nothing, just nothing worth spending the time and effort for.

jeff white wrote:Bolter should be a better gun than a pistol.
But with the jump pack movement added to pistol range, ass marines should have the same effective range as the bolter.

The thing is, you don't just want to be shooting them with your pistol, you want to be hitting them with your chainsword at the same time. Which has a 1" range. At the same time they get an out of sequence chance to do return damage.

jeff white wrote:Ass marines should have an extra attack in cc.

Possibly.

jeff white wrote:Tac marines should have better overwatch or a stand your ground special rule, something like that, as they should be the best objective holders in the game.

This is where i disagree, i think tactical squads should be considered the backbone of your army, just like they are in the fluff. But in order to get them to the level of that consideration, they need more going for them.

jeff white wrote:Tacs should have more access to special and heavy guns.

I would like to see the default mooks be worth taking, without needing specials/heavies to dps. That's why i'd go with chainswords and special ammo.

jeff white wrote:All Marines should have two wounds.

Possibly. I'm going to suggest though that survivability isn't their biggest problem so much as doing meaningful dps while they are alive.

jeff white wrote:EFF primaris with a dry knobby stick.

Yeah well, i felt the same way about centurions as a 'fix' for terminators. GW has a habit of releasing new models with better rules instead of fixing the rules of the old models. It is what it is, and they exist now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
more: Lets compare conscripts to my 'buffed' tactical marines.

65 points will buy you 5 marines and 21 conscripts.

in shooting, at 30" range:
5 marines put out 5 s4 ap0 shots
conscripts do nothing

in shooting, at 24" range:
5 marines put out 5 s4 ap-1 shots or 10 s4 ap0 shots
21 conscripts put out 21 s3 ap0 shots

in shooting, at 12" range:
5 marines put out 10 s4 ap-1 shots or 15 s4 ap0 shots
21 conscripts put out 42 s3 ap0 shots

in melee, at 1" range:
5 marines put out 10 s4 ap0 chainsword attacks, and either 5 s4 ap-1 bolt pistol shots or 10 s4 ap0 bolt pistol shots
21 conscripts put out 21 s3 ap0 melee attacks

-----
Okay, so doesn't look so good in the shooting matchups (outside 30" range that is), but starts looking better in melee. Special ammo can only go so far, given its a new edition maybe the humble boltgun itself requires revisiting? Will chew on this for a bit.

Okay, since my thoughts are scattered all over, here's the best way to go about it:
1. Bolt Weapons force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound.
2. Tactical Marines have LD8 (they're basically veterans) and get the Special and Heavy Weapon at 5 men, and an extra of either at 10.
3. Assault Marines are a point cheaper?
The best fix for Assault Marines was the Troop treatment if you had a Jump HQ, but we lost that with Bikers too so...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Okay, since my thoughts are scattered all over, here's the best way to go about it:
1. Bolt Weapons force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound.
2. Tactical Marines have LD8 (they're basically veterans) and get the Special and Heavy Weapon at 5 men, and an extra of either at 10.
3. Assault Marines are a point cheaper?
The best fix for Assault Marines was the Troop treatment if you had a Jump HQ, but we lost that with Bikers too so...

It's a beer and pretzels game. If you're not scattered, you're not doing it right. Here's my thoughts:

1. My example 5 marines vs 21 conscripts? Statistically, you're not likely to get that force reroll (5/6). DPS is largely unchanged.
2. I could go with LD8. They are 'elite' and outside the reroll they're still subject to morale. I could get behind the special/heavy too, although at the same time i'd look at point reductions for them.
3. Still wouldn't take them, even if they fulfilled my troops requirement.

I still think that tacticals, devastators, assaults and scouts should *be* the troops. I want a reason to take units beyond the fact that they're a tax, and this is traditionally where gw falls down.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Okay, since my thoughts are scattered all over, here's the best way to go about it:
1. Bolt Weapons force rerolls of successful saves on a 6+ to wound.
2. Tactical Marines have LD8 (they're basically veterans) and get the Special and Heavy Weapon at 5 men, and an extra of either at 10.
3. Assault Marines are a point cheaper?
The best fix for Assault Marines was the Troop treatment if you had a Jump HQ, but we lost that with Bikers too so...

It's a beer and pretzels game. If you're not scattered, you're not doing it right. Here's my thoughts:

1. My example 5 marines vs 21 conscripts? Statistically, you're not likely to get that force reroll (5/6). DPS is largely unchanged.
2. I could go with LD8. They are 'elite' and outside the reroll they're still subject to morale. I could get behind the special/heavy too, although at the same time i'd look at point reductions for them.
3. Still wouldn't take them, even if they fulfilled my troops requirement.

I still think that tacticals, devastators, assaults and scouts should *be* the troops. I want a reason to take units beyond the fact that they're a tax, and this is traditionally where gw falls down.

1. With the Bolter I'm mostly giving it a unique rule. Gauss Weapons have the extra AP everywhere, Shurikens have the rending rule for all intents and purposes, Orks basically have everything as Assault, Tesla gains extra shots, etc. It's a bonus that I can't find anywhere outside Lugft Hurons claw forcing rerolls on Invul Saves. Plus it makes Lieutenants a little neater for rank-and-file dudes and gives Primaris Marines just a slight boost without being overpowered in any manner.
2. Point reduction isn't necessary. Devastators and Scouts are worth the points, and Vanguard/Sternguard are worth their points without actually being much more expensive. This is the primary reason I've come to the conclusion that the weapon options and loadouts for Tactical Marines is the issue, not the unit profile itself. So we make their weapon spam more unique compared to other armies (So the initial Crusader way of doing things, who really aren't too bad for what you want at 5 dudes while you give the meat shields extra weapons to hold off potential melee units), rather than doing the whole special weapon thing that Sternguard, Veterens, Battle Sisters, Skitarii, Plague Marines, etc. do.
3. Devastators don't need to be troops. Once you do the initial Bolt weapon boost, they do Heavy Weapon spam decently enough (on top of the weapon support with the Cherub and Signum), but I think they need the ability to buy 1-2 more heavy weapons. It looks better table wise and would do better for crunch. All I could really come up with for Assault Marines was the 1 point reduction, because people whined so much about Bikers becoming troops that we don't get the option anymore (and it wasn't even broken to begin with; people just didn't like us not using garbage Tactical Marines as troops). Ergo, the suggestion to let the same happen for Jump dudes isn't realistic anymore.
NOW, if we can convince GW to allow more flexible troop choices again, it would be a decent fix. I think it's unfair that Emperors Children and World Eaters get their special troops back for no discernable reason, yet the cool troop choices for other Legions didn't come back after Traitors Legion (which was pretty good stuff, even if it didn't fix internal balance much), and that Loyalist Scum lost Bikers as troops with the appropriate HQ choice.

 Marmatag wrote:
My proposed change would be:

Every squad of space marines (in any codex, or any chapter, so BA, SW, GK, DA, and all SM get this) can select from the following specializations for a squad of marines.

1. Ranged Specialization
Marines suffer a -1 penalty to weapon skill.
Marines gain a +1 to ballistic skill.

2. Melee Specialization
Marines suffer a -1 penalty to ballistic skill.
Marines gain +1 weapon skill.

3. Tactical Specialization
Marines can take an additional special or heavy weapon in a squad of 5, and two additional special or heavy weapons in a squad of 10.

Additionally, I would change their wargear as follows:
1. All marines in a unit can throw grenades. They all have them on their belt.
2. Boltgun profile updated to str 5, ap-1, Bolt Rifle updated to str6 ap-2, storm bolter updated to str 5 ap-1.
3. Chainswords updated to Str 5, ap-1

And fundamental changes to profiles as follows:
1. Assault marines gain +1 base attack. This also includes melee specialists like death company, strike squads, etc.
2. Devastator squads armor cherub is changed so that it can activate to allow the squad to move and fire without penalty to ballistic skill.
3. All marines base movement increased by 2", including terminators. Power armor marines always run the full 6".

I really like the specialization idea, but I would probably only do that, especially at first. Troops that hit stuff on a 2+ would be pretty dang good.

Tac and ass marines need a point reduction, thats all. Their stats are fine. 13 pts. is way to much, 10 would be ok. Three units required for a bataillion are 180 pts. For 200 pts. i can get two razorbacks with twin assault cannons, those are 10 times better than 3 squads of weak, squishy tac marines.

IMO, this is a symptom of the core rules not being tactically deep enough to cover all units types.Without having to add on a truck load of special rules to compensate.

 Vankraken wrote:
Assault Marines, especially now in 8th, lack the punch to do well in the assault for the points being paid. Currently Assault Marines have 2 attacks and can use their pistols but really in the realm of melee combatants only having 2 melee attacks (S4, AP-) is not really all that threatening except against units that suck in melee (which generally are good at shooting your face off at range).
.

Which is precisely why you have a unit whose role is to close quicky with ranged combatants and engage them in melee. That is, assault marines.

That's ther role. Their role is not "engage dedicated close combat units." It is "neutralize ranged units."

They are physically barred from doing this job. A lot. And now units leave cc at will. Their job is basically impossible in 8th.

Yes we have had the same problem at our local store...Tactical Squads are over prices when compared to other choices such as sternguard (3pts for 1 extra hand to hand, better bolter, and access to stratagem).

To me "Tactical Squads" "should" make up the "backbone" of most "codex" marine armies. Yet they do not represent much on the table top. We have been testing some ways to bring BALANCE to a forgotten troop choice that is not cheese...remember that is NOT cheese.

Choice 1: If you select a ten man squad all special weapons choices, and heavy weapon choices are 1/2 the points.
Rational: They are the most common type of squad in a SM army...
Balance: If you field all tactical squads it provide about enough points to generate one additional squad (2000pts).

Choice 2: Each FULL tactical squad provides +1 additional command point.
Rational: They are the "most flexible" (fluff) unit in a SM army...
Balance: Hard to break dumping 350+ points into a anemic squad that gets you +3 command points.

Choice 3: <chapter> Tactical squads spread captian, chaplain, and lieutenant buffs to other <chapter> tactical squads within 4".
Rational: They are the "most flexible" (fluff) unit in SM army...if from the same chapter
Balance: Gives cool buffs, helps anemic ability to points, best results in mass, easy to counter.
NOTE - chapter master, special character buffs that are not like the vanilla HQ choices do not count.

Personally I like choice 3 the best. Makes army HQ diversity relevant, rewards having multiple tactical squads, and promotes a very "balanced" army.

Choice 1 - Not great with small number of TS...ok if swarming. Hard to balance points as if you make special/heavies to cheap (free) it creates imbalance as you scale up. Maybe make the first 3 Full tactical squads heavy/special free? After that full price...

Choice 2 - To iffy, not attractive enough, great fluff! I almost think this and choice 3 could be combined.

My solution to this has always been to upgrade the basic bolter to something that doesn't suck so that your ablative wounds don't feel like a complete waste. That is how you fix tacticals - give the bolter the intercessors bolt rifle profile with -1 ap - upgrade the intercessors to ap-2 - upgrade the stalker bolter rifle to ap-3. That is how you fix the troop selections - obviously by upping their damage (it's clear they don't do enough damage). no increased cost.

For Devs - Move and shoot with no penalty. No increased cost.
For Assault marines - Chainswords +1 attack and -2 ap. Make jetpacks give you +1 attack on the charge. no additional cost.

It's stuff like this that will help out marine infantry.

With the Fly keyword they can fall back and still shoot into combat with their pistols, right?.... :(

If marine basic infantry and weapon has -1 AP we go back to armours being non existant for Orks, Cultists ,etc...

And personally I think too many basic units have WS and BS of 3+.
Thats should be something only Space Marines and other Elite Armies should have in their troops.
Having Conscripts with a BS of 6+, Eldar Guardians with 4+ in their Stats, the same for Necron Warriors, Tau FireWarriors hitting on 5+, etc...

And that should help to make the game less deadly.

But to be honest, I think Tacticals have been already fixed. They are called Intercessors.

Intercessors are terrible units, though. No firepower at all vs hordes. They're great vs terminators, though!

Well, from a competitive standpoint where Hordes rules, I suppose they are terrible units, yeah.

But you can't say that a Lasscanon is a terrible weapon because it sucks agaisn't Hordes. Intercessors defend themselves very whell for what you could expect from a generalistic troop choice.

I think they are pretty well balanced. Of course, balanced in competitive meat means "terrible", yeah.