Why don't Grey Knights get a Chapter Tactic?

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**Galas**

Grey Knights wheren't a full army... until GW decided they are.

Just like Plague Marines weren't a full army... until now.

The problem with Grey Knights is how you balance a "Anti-Daemon" army agaisn't everything else+Demons. The same goes for a theoreticall full Sisters of Silence army. If you face a psyker heavy enemy, you win, everything else, overpriced Sisters of Battle.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Interestingly SoBs are the inverse, since if I remember they suffered the reverse of the GKs going from 2nd edition to 3rd. And it shows since they have far less holes in their lineup than GKs do, their main problem being short ranges.

GK's role as "Marine +1" is also now usurped since Custodes are a thing, who are canonically Marines +1. If we see Custodes become a full on 40k army, GKs will lose even more purpose as a standalone force.

**Marmatag**

Martel732 wrote:
Give BA and GK double attacks vs models that less than 10 ppm. And models less than 10 ppm get -1 to hit BA and GK. Why? Not my job to justify math.

Just bring back sweeping advance, but make it a test based on morale minus casualties.

So yeah, i did 9 casualties to your conscripts. Sweeping advance. They're all dead.

Also, falling back out of melee should risk a sweeping advance, regardless of casualties. I'd love to sweeping advance a tank. Not sure what to base that roll on tho.

**Martel732**

Or that. I'm not picky. I'm really not. I just want a shot here.

**Xenomancers**

Greyknights do have a chapter tactic it's just worthless. If they had smite or psyhic powers wern't limited to one cast it would be worth something but sadly it's not the case.

**Audustum**

Galas wrote:
Grey Knights wheren't a full army... until GW decided they are.

Just like Plague Marines weren't a full army... until now.

The problem with Grey Knights is how you balance a "Anti-Daemon" army agaisn't everything else+Demons. The same goes for a theoreticall full Sisters of Silence army. If you face a psyker heavy enemy, you win, everything else, overpriced Sisters of Battle.

Which is why allies exist. I hate to say it, since I've wanted to run mono-GK for awhile, but I think it might be time to move past insisting every army is stand alone competitive. That doesn't seem to be what GW wants. GK are an ally slot force.

**Quickjager**

They offer nothing as a supporting element. All their psychic support skills target ONLY Grey Knights.

**Marmatag**

Quickjager wrote:
They offer nothing as a supporting element. All their psychic support skills target ONLY Grey Knights.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

**Galas**

I use a squad of GK Paladins in my "Inquisitorial/Imperial" army but I agree.

The problem is that, how can you make GK viable as a stand-alone army, being a very specialist army?
I think they have only one option:

-Drop entirely the "anti daemon" thing and just be "Elite Space Marines with Psychic powers". That way you can try to balance them agaisn't all the armies. They can be still in the fluff, specialized agaisn't Daemons, but in the rules they will just work the same agaisn't every enemy. Just like Deathwatch don't have any kind of bonus agaisn't xenos, but that doesn't substract from their personality.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Galas wrote:
I use a squad of GK Paladins in my "Inquisitorial/Imperial" army but I agree.

The problem is that, how can you make GK viable as a stand-alone army, being a very specialist army?
I think they have only one option:

-Drop entirely the "anti daemon" thing and just be "Elite Space Marines with Psychic powers". That way you can try to balance them agaisn't all the armies. They can be still in the fluff, specialized agaisn't Daemons, but in the rules they will just work the same agaisn't every enemy. Just like Deathwatch don't have any kind of bonus agaisn't xenos, but that doesn't substract from their personality.

They could do that and also give "Adversary" rules. Basically Daemons would gain some sort of bonus when fighting GKs and only GKs, while GK gets more killy when facing only daemons. They sort of tried to do this with Slaanesh and Eldar. It would take a lot of cooperation between the Daemon Codex writers and the next set of GK codex writers, but it is doable.

That way you can still have GK be the perfect Daemonslayers they are, but also be free to design them as an all-rounder force when not against daemons.

**Quickjager**

They had it last ed. in a sloppy manner where you gave the opponent the option to make all characters in their army Daemons. In return they got all the Daemon rules and the warlord got 3++, fleshbane, armorbane, ML2, annnnd something else.

It wasn't very balanced.

**Audustum**

Marmatag wrote:
Quickjager wrote:
They offer nothing as a supporting element. All their psychic support skills target ONLY Grey Knights.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Defensive Psyker powers aren't the be-all-end-all of this metric. GK offer easy access to Deep Strike, easy access to Storm Bolter spam, mass Deny the Witch to protect you from Smite spam and excellent melee damage.

They're too much of a glass cannon, but that aside they have lots to offer as allies.

**Marmatag**

Other factions provide this far better than GK, for cheaper.

**Galas**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Galas wrote:
I use a squad of GK Paladins in my "Inquisitorial/Imperial" army but I agree.

The problem is that, how can you make GK viable as a stand-alone army, being a very specialist army?
I think they have only one option:

-Drop entirely the "anti daemon" thing and just be "Elite Space Marines with Psychic powers". That way you can try to balance them agaisn't all the armies. They can be still in the fluff, specialized agaisn't Daemons, but in the rules they will just work the same agaisn't every enemy. Just like Deathwatch don't have any kind of bonus agaisn't xenos, but that doesn't substract from their personality.

They could do that and also give "Adversary" rules. Basically Daemons would gain some sort of bonus when fighting GKs and only GKs, while GK gets more killy when facing only daemons. They sort of tried to do this with Slaanesh and Eldar. It would take a lot of cooperation between the Daemon Codex writers and the next set of GK codex writers, but it is doable.

That way you can still have GK be the perfect Daemonslayers they are, but also be free to design them as an all-rounder force when not against daemons.

Quickjager wrote:They had it last ed. in a sloppy manner where you gave the opponent the option to make all characters in their army Daemons. In return they got all the Daemon rules and the warlord got 3++, fleshbane, armorbane, ML2, annnnd something else.

It wasn't very balanced.

This was my point. Why are you gonna give bonuses to the Daemons when they fight the "Anti-Daemon" army? Or GK have a easier fight agaisn't daemons as they should, or it just doesn't has any kind of logic. So, if you are gonna give bonuses for daemons to fight agains't the anti-daemon faction, in a pursue of "balance", just don't give any bonus to anyone. And just have your normal non anti-daemon GK force vs a normal Daemon Force.
As I said, Deathwatch doesn't need any Anti-Xeno bonus to have their own personality even in the sea of Space Marines we live in.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It would be for thematic purposes, as there is catharsis in your squad of 5 GKs smacking 20+ daemons back into the warp in a single turn.

**Marmatag**

In truth GK should be adept at fighting anything chaos. That would expand their use cases dramatically.

It's a step in the right direction. But it's not really enough.

Giving Grey Knights normal smite would be the right move. And it just does 1 extra wound to chaos.

**Galas**

Then you are entering Sisters of Battle and Ordo Hereticus territory.

As I said, they just shouldn't have any kind of bonuses. Those bonuses can't be balanced properly, like "Death to the false Emperor". They don't work in the style of gameplay a Wargame like 40k offers.

**Marmatag**

Galas wrote:
Then you are entering Sisters of Battle and Ordo Hereticus territory.

As I said, they just shouldn't have any kind of bonuses. Those bonuses can't be balanced properly, like "Death to the false Emperor". They don't work in the style of gameplay a Wargame like 40k offers.

Well, in their current state, GK don't work really at all. They would be better served by a top to bottom redesign at this point.

**argonak**

Marmatag wrote:
In truth GK should be adept at fighting anything chaos. That would expand their use cases dramatically.

It's a step in the right direction. But it's not really enough.

Giving Grey Knights normal smite would be the right move. And it just does 1 extra wound to chaos.

While giving an army a buff against a specific enemy is fluffy, its bad game design. I dislike the exploding 6s of Chaos as it is.

If Army A is stronger against Army B, do you make it weaker against Army C to compensate? What if your only opponent always plays chaos? Then its just a permanent bonus. What if your only opponent never plays chaos? Then you never see it. It just makes the army unbalanced.

Better to just make all abilities equal against all opponents, so that you can at least attempt to have balance. Yeah you lose out on the fluff, but people here clearly care about game balance or they wouldn't be complaining about their army.

If GK are underperforming, we can hope GW will do one of two things, adjust their army attribute, or adjust their point value (probably the latter is more realistic). But I really wish they'd cut these buffs against a single enemy garbage out. It just makes balancing the game even harder than it already is.

**Audustum**

Or if you really want standalone, you could merge Deathwatch, Sisters and GK. Codex: Chambers Militant. Than you can make a force with a bonus for almost any situation.

**FuzzayD**

I feellike you guys dont know how lucky you have it, you can field any other "imperium" unit in your detachements and still be battleforged.
From the looks of things GW is going to release a codex for everything, chaos deathguard, khorne, thousand sons, blood angels, dark angels. ultramarines, grey knights. buy the books get the rules. not just space marines and chaos. (like they promised).
be happy with fielding spacemarine chapter tactics and filling in some otherwise useless slots with psyker op marines.

**Insectum7**

argonak wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
In truth GK should be adept at fighting anything chaos. That would expand their use cases dramatically.

It's a step in the right direction. But it's not really enough.

Giving Grey Knights normal smite would be the right move. And it just does 1 extra wound to chaos.

While giving an army a buff against a specific enemy is fluffy, its bad game design.

Good world design though, that's their entire reason for existing. What are they doing fighting Tyranids?

Honestly, I'd rather them just be exceptionally good at fighting daemons, and if they suck as a stand-alone army, so be it.

**Arachnofiend**

Insectum7 wrote:
argonak wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
In truth GK should be adept at fighting anything chaos. That would expand their use cases dramatically.

It's a step in the right direction. But it's not really enough.

Giving Grey Knights normal smite would be the right move. And it just does 1 extra wound to chaos.

While giving an army a buff against a specific enemy is fluffy, its bad game design.

Good world design though, that's their entire reason for existing. What are they doing fighting Tyranids?

Honestly, I'd rather them just be exceptionally good at fighting daemons, and if they suck as a stand-alone army, so be it.

So... how do you play them, then? Do you just bring out your Grey Knights whenever you feel like being a dick to your chaos-loving pal and keep them shelved otherwise?

**Galas**

An army that is an auto win agaistn daemons and a auto lose agaisnt everything else is just... bad. Very bad and useless for the game.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Galas's proposal that they be "Elite Psychic Marines" is probably the best way to expand upon them at this point, since trying to make them specialized just shoehorns them into very specific scenarios while putting them in with SoBs and Deathwatch just gives them the same issue Chaos Daemons have (namely wanting to play a fluffy force severely penalizes you).

Powerful Psychic Powers would also help them in filling in the gaps of their armory without putting in unnecessary units. Like a unit of psykers that can shoot bolts a la Zoanthropes can fill the hole of not having easy access to lascannons, Psychic Buffs that can help your units not die or run during a firefight, allowing even expensive units to function as bubble wrap, and so forth.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Insectum7 wrote:
argonak wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
In truth GK should be adept at fighting anything chaos. That would expand their use cases dramatically.

It's a step in the right direction. But it's not really enough.

Giving Grey Knights normal smite would be the right move. And it just does 1 extra wound to chaos.

While giving an army a buff against a specific enemy is fluffy, its bad game design.

Good world design though, that's their entire reason for existing. What are they doing fighting Tyranids?

You hadn't picked up the Daemonhunters codex ONCE in your life have you?