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 Galas wrote:
Yeah, many times things shouldn't be made cheaper, just better by rules. This is why I don't like the "just make everything cheaper" people want with Orks. At this rate a full 2k point ork army will cost 2000 pounds to do by GW prices.

How does that work for things that are SUPPOSED to be crappy?

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, many times things shouldn't be made cheaper, just better by rules. This is why I don't like the "just make everything cheaper" people want with Orks. At this rate a full 2k point ork army will cost 2000 pounds to do by GW prices.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, many times things shouldn't be made cheaper, just better by rules. This is why I don't like the "just make everything cheaper" people want with Orks. At this rate a full 2k point ork army will cost 2000 pounds to do by GW prices.

How does that work for things that are SUPPOSED to be crappy?

Tyranid Warriors aren't suppose to be crappy. Obviously theres a compromise with things that are supposed to be crappy (Those normally should come in boxes priced accordingly, not like GSC cultists where 10 5p models cost you like a tactical squad that is literally double or more the points). Edition after edition GW has made things cheaper, people said it was because they wanted for us to buy more stuff, and in part it was true.
One of the 3rd edition designer said that the marketing team imposed on them, once 3rd edition was written, to literally cut in half all point costs for everything, so people would need more to play the standard battle size. (To be honest normally people at the end of 2nd edition was playing with armies with a size that wasn't designed to be used with 2nd rules)

And this is because people doesn't have control. They want to put everything they want in their lists. They doesn't want to make compromises, to have a varied and balance experience, and this has been shown when in the change from 7th to 8th many things where made more expensives in points. The community solution? Change the games from 1850 points to 2k or 2,5k, so they could still put everything they wanted in their armies.

When the "2k or go home" mentality sets, that kills any opportunity new players can have to joint the hobby. I can't express with my knowledge of english how much I hate that community-mentality.
Thats why Carnifexs shouldn't be cheaper, Dreadnoughts shouldn't be cheaper, and vehicles shouldn't be cheaper in general. They should be just better by rules.

TL:RD: Things that by fluff and lore are supposed to be powerfull, should have rules accordingly and have point costs accordingly. Carnifexes costing ~100 points is an abomination. He shouldn't cost the same points as 8 Tactical Marines.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ah yeah, Warriors are jack of all master of poop! We can shoot.. kinda, we can melee.. kinda, we do synapse... but we die fast....

In what practical universe to Warriors die fast?

As long as there are Exocrines or Genestealers on the board, they may as well be invisible and invincible.

 Galas wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, many times things shouldn't be made cheaper, just better by rules. This is why I don't like the "just make everything cheaper" people want with Orks. At this rate a full 2k point ork army will cost 2000 pounds to do by GW prices.

How does that work for things that are SUPPOSED to be crappy?

Tyranid Warriors aren't suppose to be crappy. Obviously theres a compromise with things that are supposed to be crappy (Those normally should come in boxes priced accordingly, not like GSC cultists where 10 5p models cost you like a tactical squad that is literally double or more the points). Edition after edition GW has made things cheaper, people said it was because they wanted for us to buy more stuff, and in part it was true.
One of the 3rd edition designer said that the marketing team imposed on them, once 3rd edition was written, to literally cut in half all point costs for everything, so people would need more to play the standard battle size. (To be honest normally people at the end of 2nd edition was playing with armies with a size that wasn't designed to be used with 2nd rules)

And this is because people doesn't have control. They want to put everything they want in their lists. They doesn't want to make compromises, to have a varied and balance experience, and this has been shown when in the change from 7th to 8th many things where made more expensives in points. The community solution? Change the games from 1850 points to 2k or 2,5k, so they could still put everything they wanted in their armies.

When the "2k or go home" mentality sets, that kills any opportunity new players can have to joint the hobby. I can't express with my knowledge of english how much I hate that community-mentality.
Thats why Carnifexs shouldn't be cheaper, Dreadnoughts shouldn't be cheaper, and vehicles shouldn't be cheaper in general. They should be just better by rules.

TL:RD: Things that by fluff and lore are supposed to be powerfull, should have rules accordingly and have point costs accordingly. Carnifexes costing ~100 points is an abomination. He shouldn't cost the same points as 8 Tactical Marines.

But gaunts/gant variants and (almost) all orks ARE supposed to be crap. How do you improve them while retaining the quantity over quality approach? You can't keep improving them to meet points because then they become a different army.

Stux wrote:
I don't think warriors need a points drop. I think they need a power buff.

Part of my reasoning is how much the kit costs. Over £10 for a 24pt model is frankly insane imo

Totally on board with that, although I think SM bikes have a similar points to price ratio.

Also, Bonesword should be 2 damage. It's a cousin of a force weapon, and used to be pretty scary.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, many times things shouldn't be made cheaper, just better by rules. This is why I don't like the "just make everything cheaper" people want with Orks. At this rate a full 2k point ork army will cost 2000 pounds to do by GW prices.

How does that work for things that are SUPPOSED to be crappy?

Tyranid Warriors aren't suppose to be crappy. Obviously theres a compromise with things that are supposed to be crappy (Those normally should come in boxes priced accordingly, not like GSC cultists where 10 5p models cost you like a tactical squad that is literally double or more the points). Edition after edition GW has made things cheaper, people said it was because they wanted for us to buy more stuff, and in part it was true.
One of the 3rd edition designer said that the marketing team imposed on them, once 3rd edition was written, to literally cut in half all point costs for everything, so people would need more to play the standard battle size. (To be honest normally people at the end of 2nd edition was playing with armies with a size that wasn't designed to be used with 2nd rules)

And this is because people doesn't have control. They want to put everything they want in their lists. They doesn't want to make compromises, to have a varied and balance experience, and this has been shown when in the change from 7th to 8th many things where made more expensives in points. The community solution? Change the games from 1850 points to 2k or 2,5k, so they could still put everything they wanted in their armies.

When the "2k or go home" mentality sets, that kills any opportunity new players can have to joint the hobby. I can't express with my knowledge of english how much I hate that community-mentality.
Thats why Carnifexs shouldn't be cheaper, Dreadnoughts shouldn't be cheaper, and vehicles shouldn't be cheaper in general. They should be just better by rules.

TL:RD: Things that by fluff and lore are supposed to be powerfull, should have rules accordingly and have point costs accordingly. Carnifexes costing ~100 points is an abomination. He shouldn't cost the same points as 8 Tactical Marines.

But gaunts/gant variants and (almost) all orks ARE supposed to be crap. How do you improve them while retaining the quantity over quality approach? You can't keep improving them to meet points because then they become a different army.

Yeah, thats why I said that theres a compromise. Some things need to be cheaper, or just have weak rules (And a cheap price in relation). And not all orks are supposed to be crap, but they are supposed to be in general cheaper than their other armies equivalents (Like Terminators vs Meganobz). But not SO cheaper that they become a pain to collect.

 Sim-Life wrote:
But gaunts/gant variants and (almost) all orks ARE supposed to be crap. How do you improve them while retaining the quantity over quality approach? You can't keep improving them to meet points because then they become a different army.

Another way is to increase the scale of the game by giving price hikes across the board, but that would require Errata updates to all codexes. But it's not impossible. Back in 3rd edition an 8-point gaunt was still considered "cheap" and marines with just grenades came out to 18 points (which would have people firebomb GW HQ nowadays). Scale creep has been a big issue with GW's games lately and it's partially why sometimes increasing even just 1 point can be a huge issue. If they went back with the bigger points then tweaking would be easier. if your model costs 4 points, just +1 point means a 25% increase. But if they're starting with swarm units being 10, then +1 point is a mere 10% increase.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
But gaunts/gant variants and (almost) all orks ARE supposed to be crap. How do you improve them while retaining the quantity over quality approach? You can't keep improving them to meet points because then they become a different army.

Another way is to increase the scale of the game by giving price hikes across the board, but that would require Errata updates to all codexes. But it's not impossible. Back in 3rd edition an 8-point gaunt was still considered "cheap" and marines with just grenades came out to 18 points (which would have people firebomb GW HQ nowadays). Scale creep has been a big issue with GW's games lately and it's partially why sometimes increasing even just 1 point can be a huge issue. If they went back with the bigger points then tweaking would be easier. if your model costs 4 points, just +1 point means a 25% increase. But if they're starting with swarm units being 10, then +1 point is a mere 10% increase.

Yeah, thats why I think they should just double the number of points to have more room to balance.

Just look at the low end with conscripts, brimstones, Infantry Squads, Gretchins... etc... Conscripts and Gretchins cost the same as Brimstones. Doubling their costs you could have Gretching costing 4 points, 5 for Brimstones and 6 for Conscripts.

Nids could use some price drops for sure, but make their sources of mortal wounds more expensive. Tyranid mortal wound spam is boring, unfun, and hoses lists that don't need hosing in 8th.

We were talking about some of these things over on the Tyranid Hive.

I hope the Hive Tyrant gets fixed so that it can last longer than turn 1/2. Others have mentioned that they don't take a hive tyrant as warlord and this is just wrong. This guy should be the warlord. Its too easy to kill and give up points for warlord.

Also, I feel that we should go back to only having 1 hive tyrant in a list (maybe 1-2 but I would rather only 1). Make it unique. So the hive tyrant is the 'essence of the hive mind' as in older codex descriptions. Then the hive tyrant can be tougher and be nastier in melee as we wont be able to spam it.

Oh I like that idea. The tyrant really ought to be the nexus of the Hive Mind and all the critters; it shouldn’t be untargettable/have 9 Wounds, but it ought to be a powerful beast. 4++ or something more impressive. I have no doubts that the new book will have powerful stratagems, psychic powers, and hive fleet traits to buff the Tyrant as well though.

Yeah that'd be cool.

Tyranids are supposed to have powerful but expensive HQs.
Other armies leaders are just some other little dude wearing fancier armour. The tyranids on the other hand are led by an enormous rampaging monster.

A hive tyrant should be a serious threat to anything it meets. However it should certainly not be the spammable gunboat it has been for the past few editions.


Unfortunately 8th edition really does not favour characters with 10+ wounds. Not until they reach Magnus levels of power anyway.
Maybe GW has realized this and taken it into account. Maybe they haven't.
So while I'd like an expensive but super badass hive tyrant, I don't have high hopes for it being all that good.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, many times things shouldn't be made cheaper, just better by rules. This is why I don't like the "just make everything cheaper" people want with Orks. At this rate a full 2k point ork army will cost 2000 pounds to do by GW prices.

How does that work for things that are SUPPOSED to be crappy?

Tyranid Warriors aren't suppose to be crappy. Obviously theres a compromise with things that are supposed to be crappy (Those normally should come in boxes priced accordingly, not like GSC cultists where 10 5p models cost you like a tactical squad that is literally double or more the points). Edition after edition GW has made things cheaper, people said it was because they wanted for us to buy more stuff, and in part it was true.
One of the 3rd edition designer said that the marketing team imposed on them, once 3rd edition was written, to literally cut in half all point costs for everything, so people would need more to play the standard battle size. (To be honest normally people at the end of 2nd edition was playing with armies with a size that wasn't designed to be used with 2nd rules)

And this is because people doesn't have control. They want to put everything they want in their lists. They doesn't want to make compromises, to have a varied and balance experience, and this has been shown when in the change from 7th to 8th many things where made more expensives in points. The community solution? Change the games from 1850 points to 2k or 2,5k, so they could still put everything they wanted in their armies.

When the "2k or go home" mentality sets, that kills any opportunity new players can have to joint the hobby. I can't express with my knowledge of english how much I hate that community-mentality.
Thats why Carnifexs shouldn't be cheaper, Dreadnoughts shouldn't be cheaper, and vehicles shouldn't be cheaper in general. They should be just better by rules.

TL:RD: Things that by fluff and lore are supposed to be powerfull, should have rules accordingly and have point costs accordingly. Carnifexes costing ~100 points is an abomination. He shouldn't cost the same points as 8 Tactical Marines.

But gaunts/gant variants and (almost) all orks ARE supposed to be crap. How do you improve them while retaining the quantity over quality approach? You can't keep improving them to meet points because then they become a different army.

Hormagaunts cost about £1.60 per model (£20 for a box of 12). They are base 5pts each, so 5 of them makes one Tyranid Warrior points wise. 5 Hormagaunts costs £8.33. That's still a fair bit less than a single Tyranid Warrior.

Warriors are much worse offenders for this than Gaunts.

EDIT as I did some wrong maths

 Happyjew wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Will of the Hive Mind: All models within Synapse range ignores wounds (and mortal wounds) on a 5+.

I would say this is too much maby a 6+ with a stratigum to improve it to 5+

But it's OK for Nurgle to get it?

There's a reason DG/ Nurgle has it and the entire army is balanced around it from scratch. Nurgle Daemons have crappy armor saves and aren't very good offensively (except for the GUO) and DG units are generally more expensive than their vanilla CSM counterparts to compensate. Just throwing a random 5+ FNP into Tyranids is a giant buff that requires shuffling the point costs around on every model and weapon option in order to prevent the entire army from becoming an overpowered mess.

I am super excited for this codex.

Biovores and harpies need nerfs, and lots of other stuff need a ton of buffs.