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Cream Tea wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
I'm not seeing how you're equating "units" with "deployment choices", or how a transport and its cargo would be a single unit. It doesn't say that.

Also, if a unit isn't on the battlefield it isn't on the battlefield. There is no third option unless the rules say so. And they don't.

One has already been explained, read again and slowly this time then come up with your counter evidence to contradict it rather than acknowledging you're incapable of spotting it. Two is my point as well, you're not contradicting anything I've already stated, there is indeed no third option and the embarked units do not count as being on the battlefield, the transport rules make it clear they are off it, yet the rules grant an exception to how they are treated for the purpose of deployment which governs Tactical Reserves as well. It's a counts as rule. Anyway, I've sufficiently explained the concept and it's supported by every major tournament so unless you come with specific examples I will not entertain an inability to understand the point.

The Tactical Reserves rule says that "When setting up your army during Deployment for a matched play game, at least half the total number of units in your army must be set up on the battlefield, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere."

It does not say "at least half of your deployment choices", if it did I would agree with you. You need to deploy at least half the total number of units in your army on the battlefield, and this number doesn't change depending on whether your units are embarked on transports or not.

The Designers' Commentary says "Q: In missions where players alternate deploying units, do units that are set up somewhere other than the battlefield still count as a player’s deployment choice? What about units that begin the battle embarked within a transport?
A: Units with abilities on their datasheets that allow them to be set up somewhere other than the battlefield must still be ‘set up’ in that locale, and so still count as a deployment choice. When you choose to set up a transport, declare what units (if any) are embarked inside – these are not separate deployment choices."

This appears to be written to address the "number of drops" question, and not the one we're discussing. This is why it's hard to apply here. Nowhere is it said that embarked units are part of the same unit as the transport, it only says that they're not separate deployment choices. They're still separate units, ones that haven't been set up on the battlefield. Indeed, they haven't been "set up" at all, merely "declared" to be embarked on the transport.

Your interpretation feels intuitive, and obviously works just fine. Is it how it was intended to be? I don't know. Is it RaW? I don't think so.

I mean no offence, I'm just disagreeing with you.

The point that he is making is that they cannot both be a single deployment, and yet not be deployed in the same place, i.e. one on the battlefield and one not on the battlefield, because the FAQ tells us that units that deploy somewhere other than the battlefield count as their own deployment choice. Since units inside a transport are not being deployed as their own deployment choice, in a place other than the battlefield, then they must be being deployed in the same place that the transport is: on the battlefield.

skchsan wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
My only problem with this is the issue with flyers, because the FAQ doesn't state that flyer embarked units don't count, it says that flyers don't. And since flyer is a battlefield role, not a status, the unit inside couldn't really inherit it. The Flyer's status is still "on the battlefield", the just don't count for sudden death, and so the unit inside would still inherit "on the battlefield" as their status, but not being a flyer, they would count.

It becomes a problem when you're (the player with flyer transport) are ferrying a few units zooming across the whole game. Tell me what is the diffrence between four stormravens flying around vs four stormravens with a unit of scouts embarked in one them?

Easy. If need be, the scouts can get out.

The FAQ was clear on their intent on their ruling for flyers - to prevent flyer spamming.

Once all the models on battlefield are embarked on the transports and only the flyers are the only models effectively in play, this is no different than the precise case GW was trying to prevent.

That makes no sense at all. Yes, the FAQ was clear on their intent for flyers. And their intent for flyers has nothing at all to do with their intent for the unit inside the flyer. The entire idea behind boots on the ground and sudden death is that a flyer on its own, without troops, cannot operate indefinitely in a combat zone. The troops inside can, and there is no logical reason why just because turn three came around, they would be magically expected to foot slog around instead of using flyers that could get them where they needed to be significantly faster, just because the flyer itself can't hold the line. I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate to me that troops being able to take advantage of transports, flyer or otherwise, after turn three is "the precise case GW was trying to prevent".

If there are only flyers in play at the end of any game turn, it is sudden death. Turn 3 rule is specifically only for models in tactical reserves.

As you state, there are no rules barring taking advantage of transports. However, there are rules barring taking advantage of 'flyer' transports. It doesnt matter if you feel otherwise, where its not 'realistic' or 'unreasonable.' The rules are very specific that 'models embarked on a transport is removed from play until disembarked' and 'flyers do not count towards having models in play for the purpose of determining sudden death.'

By an extension of your argument, if you have obsec troops in a flying transport, it can hold objectives, since the 'troops inside can... operate indefinitely in a combat zone' because it overrides boots on ground rule since the unit inside the transport rule has objective secured.'

 skchsan wrote:
Turn 3 rule is specifically only for models in tactical reserves.

There is no such thing as being "in" Tactical Reserves.

The rule doesn't mention "reserves", it says "Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed."

And as stated in the transport rules, models in transports are not on the battlefield. If they start in a transport, by definition they cannot have arrived on the battlefield.

 skchsan wrote:
If there are only flyers in play at the end of any game turn, it is sudden death. Turn 3 rule is specifically only for models in tactical reserves.

As you state, there are no rules barring taking advantage of transports. However, there are rules barring taking advantage of 'flyer' transports. It doesnt matter if you feel otherwise, where its not 'realistic' or 'unreasonable.' The rules are very specific that 'models embarked on a transport is removed from play until disembarked' and 'flyers do not count towards having models in play for the purpose of determining sudden death.'

If you're going to put things in quotes, you should probably make sure they are actually quotes. Because that's not what the rules say. They say "remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side - it is now embarked inside the transport". That is very different from being "removed from play", and as stated earlier, there is a strong case for there being a distinction between being physically removed from the battlefield and set aside (a practical action to show that the unit is no longer acting on foot, separately from the transport) and being "off the battlefield" for rules purposes, i.e. in reserve or dead.

Where is the vehicle? On the battlefield. Where is the unit? Inside the vehicle. Ergo, the unit is on the battlefield.

Or would you argue that the rain isn't in Spain, because it's in the plain?

By an extension of your argument, if you have obsec troops in a flying transport, it can hold objectives, since the 'troops inside can... operate indefinitely in a combat zone' because it overrides boots on ground rule since the unit inside the transport rule has objective secured.'

That isn't even close to being an extension of my argument. The rules clearly state that models in a transport "cannot do anything or be affected in any way," unless otherwise stated (e.g. Open-topped allowing them to shoot, apparently from off the battlefield, per your argument). My argument is that the usage of "off the battlefield" in terms of 50% deployment, tactical reserves, and sudden death, is distinct from "off the battlefield" for the purposes of marking that a unit is no longer on foot. I'm wracking my brain to figure out how you could possibly think that rule could be extended to "units in a vehicle can affect things on the board even though the rules say they can't".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Turn 3 rule is specifically only for models in tactical reserves.

There is no such thing as being "in" Tactical Reserves.

Yes. There is. Unless you're making a pointless semantic argument, that adds nothing to the actual discussion, but just gives you an opportunity to be right without having to actually defend a real argument.

There is a section, labelled "Tactical Reserves," in the rule book, that lumps together a wide variety of rules that allow a unit to be set up elsewhere than the battlefield and then join the battle as reinforcements later in the game. It is perfectly logical, especially since the book does so, to talk about all these various rules under the umbrella term of being "in Tactical Reserves".

But hey, you're right, technically no unit is ever in "Tactical Reserves," they are in high orbit, or in Aelindrach, or flying high in the sky, or whatever. Congratulations, your point is semantically correct. And utterly pointless. Can the rest of us who are able to understand what somebody means by a simple, well-accepted general term get back to actually discussing how the rules interact?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle round counts as having been destroyed."

And as stated in the transport rules, models in transports are not on the battlefield. If they start in a transport, by definition they cannot have arrived on the battlefield.

Also note that literally the only other time the book uses the term "arrive" is in the Tactical Reserves rule in reference to models that can be set up elsewhere and arrive later as reinforcements, language not seen anywhere in the embarkment and disembarkment rules, yet more evidence that this rule was intended to refer to models in reserve, not models embarked on transports.

I mean, technically, since a model in a transport doesn't have any rule that allows it to "arrive on the battlefield", it would be destroyed at the end of turn three regardless of whether it disembarked or not. Hell, for that matter since nothing says that models that deploy on the battlefield at the start of the game "arrive" on the battlefield, at the end of turn three, they would all be destroyed, too. In fact, since the only models that have the express ability to "arrive" on the battlefield are models that have the ability to be set up elsewhere in order to "arrive" later as reinforcements, at the end of turn three every unit in the game would be destroyed except for models that were in reserves at the start of the game and had since "arrived" on the battlefield.

Or, y'know, we could just acknowledge the clear fact that the rule about models that haven't arrived on the battlefield by turn three was intended to apply only to models in reserve.

RAW, embarking in a transport clearly states "remove the unit from the battlefield"

We all understand the RAI, we all agree that physically removing the models from the battlefield is only supposed to represent the models entering the vehicle and therefore no longer on foot.

What it comes down to are specific weird interactions that involve embarked units that forces us play the game with RAW, not RAI.

For example:
-vehicle explosion - if the unit/models inside the transport is not considered to be on the battlefield, RAW, they need to roll for exiting the vehicle on top of explodes! rule. We only roll once for the emergency disembark because we consider them to be not on battlefield when the explosion occurs.
-damages - oddly enough, while there are specific provisions that governs what the embarked units can/cannot do, there are no clause in the rulebook that governs what enemy units can/cannot do to the embarked units. Obviously RAI, the units inside the transports are protected from the metal box they've entered. But since there are no specific rules, enemy units SHOULD BE able to target the embarked unit. But this doesn't happen because we considered the embarked units to be not on the battlefield and therefore are not eligible targets of anything.
-flyers & sudden death - again, as per FAQ and chapter approved, flyers do not count towards having models in play for the purpose of determining sudden death. As your RAI, by loading up a flyer transport with a unit, you don't auto lose from sudden death since you have a non-flyer unit embarked on a transport that just happens to be a flyer.

We all understand where you're coming from, but this is a game with certain sets of rules. The rules may not make sense from time to time. The time for RAW vs RAI is when specific rules doesn't fully address a certain conditions that arise during a game (i.e. 50% reserves rule), not when you're trying to argue for a certain interpretation of a rule to one's benefit.

 skchsan wrote:
RAW, embarking in a transport clearly states "remove the unit from the battlefield"

We all understand the RAI, we all agree that physically removing the models from the battlefield is only supposed to represent the models entering the vehicle and therefore no longer on foot.

What it comes down to are specific weird interactions that involve embarked units that forces us play the game with RAW, not RAI.

For example:
-vehicle explosion - if the unit/models inside the transport is not considered to be on the battlefield, RAW, they need to roll for exiting the vehicle on top of explodes! rule. We only roll once for Explodes! because we consider them to be not on battlefield when the explosion occurs.
-damages - oddly enough, while there are specific provisions that governs what the embarked units can/cannot do, there are no clause in the rulebook that governs what enemy units can/cannot do to the embarked units. Obviously RAI, the units inside the transports are protected from the metal box they've entered. But since there are no specific rules, enemy units SHOULD BE able to target the embarked unit. But this doesn't happen because we considered the embarked units to be not on the battlefield and therefore are not eligible targets of anything.
-flyers & sudden death - again, as per FAQ and chapter approved, flyers do not count towards having models in play for the purpose of determining sudden death. As your RAI, by loading up a flyer transport with a unit, you don't auto lose from sudden death since you have a non-flyer unit embarked on a transport that just happens to be a flyer.

We all understand where you're coming from, but this is a game with certain sets of rules. The rules may not make sense from time to time. The time for RAW vs RAI is when specific rules doesn't fully address a certain conditions that arise during a game (i.e. 50% reserves rule), not when you're trying to argue for a certain interpretation of a rule to one's benefit.

Except that neither of the first two instances you cite of weird RaW interactions are actually true. There is a FAQ explicitly clarifies that you don't roll for Explodes on the unit inside the vehicle, because they don't disembark until after the explosion is resolved (as per RaW), so there is no RaW conflict (because they can't be affected while embarked). And the second example would only work if you literally hadn't read the rules. I actually quoted them in my reply to your last comment. They explicitly state that models embarked on a transport cannot be affected unless otherwise stated, I don't know where you would get the idea that "there are no specific rules" protecting them, when there very much is a specific rule protecting them.

And RaW, the rules for transports specifically state "remove from the battlefield and set aside - they are now embarked in the transport", where the rules for tactical reserves tell you that certain abilities allow you to set up a unite "somewhere other than the battlefield". You can't just cut off half of the rule where it's stops suiting your argument. In both instances, the rule tells you where the unit is. Units in tactical reserves are somewhere else, off the battlefield, waiting to arrive later. Units in transports are in the transport, which is on the battlefield. By simple recursion, the unit, too, is on the battlefield. Their models have simply been removed.

Sudden death affects models that are not on the battlefield. The turn 3 rule affects models that have not yet arrived on the battlefield (something only units in reserve do). Models in transports are on the battlefield, because they are explicitly inside of transports on the battlefield (this includes flyers; boots on the ground doesn't say they aren't on the battlefield, it just says not to count them). Models int transports don't need to "arrive' on the battlefield, because they are already on it.

I'm starting to lose you. Please remember this is a discussion regarding rules and not "he said she said." I'm not trying to ignore your valid points, just trying to get back on topic.

Precisely which ruling are you trying to claim?

All I'm backing up is that non-flyer units inside a flyer transport do not count towards having models on the battlefield for sudden death.

The way most us understand the embarking rule is the removing the models from the battlefield is representative of the act of models entering the transport, since, lets face it - youre not going to ACTUALLY shove the models inside a stormraven.

The term "on battlefield" is a specific game rule syntax that is the binary opposite of "off battlefield" is what most of us claim.

 skchsan wrote:
I'm starting to lose you. Please remember this is a discussion regarding rules and not "he said she said." I'm not trying to ignore your valid points, just trying to get back on topic.

Precisely which ruling are you trying to claim?

All I'm backing up is that non-flyer units inside a flyer transport do not count towards having models on the battlefield for sudden death.

Which part specifically do you believe that the above statement is incorrect?

I'm pretty sure I explicitly stated what was incorrect about it.

We don't not apply "Explodes" to the unit inside the transport because "we consider them not to be on the battlefield", we don't apply it because RaW they are still embarked, and embarked units "cannot be affected" (and this is further clarified in the FAQ).

We don't bar units from damaging a unit embarked in a transport because "we consider them no to be on the battlefield", we bar them from damaging units embarked in transports because RaW, embarked units "cannot be affected".

Neither one of these is evidence that units in a transport is "not on the battlefield" because they are based on a completely different part of the rule. Neither one of them is relevant to whether or not an embarked unit is "on the battlefield" and neither on marks an ambiguity in RaW. "Cannot be affected" is extremely unambiguous.

And as stated, the reason the statement that units in transports don't count as being on the battlefield is incorrect is that the rule for embarkment tells us exactly where the unit is: inside the transport (which is on the battlefield). The unit inside is on the battlefield because of simple recursion. If the unit is in the transport and the transport is on the battlefield, the unit is on the battlefield. If the rain is on the plain, and the plain is in Spain, the rain is in Spain. The reason the statement that units in flyers don't count for sudden death is incorrect is that, going back to the previous statement, the rules don't tell you that the flyer (which the transport is inside of) isn't "on the battlefield", it tells you not to count it. It does not tell you to do the same with the unit inside.

Good luck taking a list like that to a tourney and having it ruled in your favor.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

And as stated, the reason the statement that units in transports don't count as being on the battlefield is incorrect is that the rule for embarkment tells us exactly where the unit is: inside the transport (which is on the battlefield). The unit inside is on the battlefield because of simple recursion. If the unit is in the transport and the transport is on the battlefield, the unit is on the battlefield. If the rain is on the plain, and the plain is in Spain, the rain is in Spain. The reason the statement that units in flyers don't count for sudden death is incorrect is that, going back to the previous statement, the rules don't tell you that the flyer (which the transport is inside of) isn't "on the battlefield", it tells you not to count it. It does not tell you to do the same with the unit inside.

Your claim is in direct contradiction how the most current FAQ tells us to deal with this particular matter (Flyers, Sudden Death, Embarked units within Flyer Transport)
From latest 40k general FAQ:

When determining if a player has any units on the battlefield, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside.

Note above that Fortification and Flyer are handled similarly, but there is special ruling regarding Fortifications with embarked units.

Otherwise I agree, embarked units should be considered to be on table, this opinion isn't RAW however. Like I said earlier, the rules dealing with the embarked units are ambiguous whether the units are on table or not.

Most RAW interpretation comes from the embark rules:

"Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it on one side - it is now embarked inside the transport"

and from disembark rules:

"When an unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield.."

The act of embarking and disembarking literally changes the battlefield status (on or off) of the unit. For all we know, there is no abstract status for units whether or not they are on the battlefield. Rules seem to be very physical and literal in this case - on the battlefield means a situation when the unit/model literally and physically is on the battlefield. Off the battlefield then means all the states other than on the battlefield. This is most valid RAW interpretation one can come up with until GW provides a more specific ruling.

For least arguments I recommend you have all the embarked units inherit the status (Battlefield Role, on/off battlefield) of the transport they are embarked within. This interpretation retains sudden death rules and allows players to use transports to decrease drop numbers and protect units while still having 'space' to deploy units in reserves.
If embarked units are considered off battlefield it makes it in many cases impossible to both deploy units embarked within transports and have units in reserves.
For example: Deploy 4x5 man tacticals in 2 rhinos would make the deployment illegal due to the Tactical Reserves rule: You would have 2 units on table and 4 off the table.

"Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a
friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit
from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked
inside the transport. " this paragraph describes the action of embark: and describes how you embark a unit from the battlefield it has no relevance on what am embarked unit is if it embarked prior to deployment as you cannot remove a unit from the battlefield that has not been deployed but it strongly rai implies that the models are removed from the battlefield

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked". This paragraph describes the rules that gover embarked units no mention of its status as off or on the battlefield so no help here....

"If at the end of any turn after the first battle round, one player has no models on the battle field, the game ends immediately"

So if the unit counts as on the battlefield is irrelevant anyway it's is there a model and as mentioned earlier units with the flyer battlefield role and in some circumstances fortifications don't count. So the contents of a flying transport don't matter till they are dropped because the physical models are not on the battlefield in relation to loseing the game

Their is a grey area with respect to tactical reserves though as it can be argued that a unit deployed in a vehical

"Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle counts as having been destroyed" this is the grey area

"When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked
within it instead of being set up separately" I would take from this that they have embarked so have arrived however a case could be made that they have never actually touched the battlefield however since the definition of embarked doesn't mention on or off the battlefield their is no raw answer so I would say rai they are fine

U02dah4 wrote:
"Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the third battle counts as having been destroyed" this is the grey area

It is only a gray area if you ignore context. Specifically this sentence has to do with units held in Tactical Reserve during Matched Play.

I agree that RAW an embarked unit cannot claim objectives because they are not on the table, but to try to apply rules for Tactical Reserves to units that are merely embarked in order to edge an advantage is intellectually dishonest. As a fan of rule pedantry, if only to illustrate how to bend/break systems, this is just an argument made on a false premise.

But we are in a weird place where if you have an embarked unit on a transport, and both came in from Tactical Reserve together, technically they don't "arrive on the battlefield" until they disembark, and thus could be destroyed.

Removing a unit from the battlefield after deployment doesn't put them in Tactical Reserve unless otherwise specified, so they wont be auto-destroyed after turn 3.

hey, this is my take from this critical FAQ....and I'm only going by what is posted to be accurate.

When determining if a player has any units on the battlefield, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside.

The last line states that Fortifications don't count for boots on the ground....UNLESS there is a unit inside.

So by precedence.....if any unit that don't count has a unit embarked...then Boots on the Ground is still fulfilled.

AND by extrapolation since an EMBARKED unit ''can" affect the Game...if not actually the Battlefield...Then all Embarked units seem to carry some weight that they are in a transport and on the battlefield thru embarkment inside the transport.

Transport on the battlefield....unit inside the transport. Unless every transport has a 'not on the battlefield' space inside it....effectively removing part of the battlefield. That is getting ridiculous.

 admironheart wrote:
hey, this is my take from this critical FAQ....and I'm only going by what is posted to be accurate.

When determining if a player has any units on the battlefield, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside.

The last line states that Fortifications don't count for boots on the ground....UNLESS there is a unit inside.

So by precedence.....if any unit that don't count has a unit embarked...then Boots on the Ground is still fulfilled.

AND by extrapolation since an EMBARKED unit ''can" affect the Game...if not actually the Battlefield...Then all Embarked units seem to carry some weight that they are in a transport and on the battlefield thru embarkment inside the transport.

Transport on the battlefield....unit inside the transport. Unless every transport has a 'not on the battlefield' space inside it....effectively removing part of the battlefield. That is getting ridiculous.

This is a misquote as the context is an explicit exception to the sudden death critirion and not boots on ground rule. Boots on ground is a stipulation for flyers that they may never be a scoring unit.

Your comment regarding the embarked units carrying some weight, we all understand that embarking represents units having entered a vehicle and not magically vanished into thin air. However RAW for the funcationality of the game, it is considered to be 'off battleground' as opposed to 'on battleground.' The rule is regarding actual physical location of the unit/model on the game board, not what embarking symbolically represents as the transport vehicles cant physically fit models in it.