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 Xenomancers wrote:
So - guilliman buffing ultra marines is the most overpowered thing in the game before chapter approved...

Yeah - this community is on drugs.

He needs to be 400 points though.

I assume that tactical marines are there as a joke

I'm very surprised that so many Tyranid things are on this list. The Malanthrope was a good force multiplier, and genestealers are a good combat unit....but game-breakingly op? Not so sure. Berserkers can do just as much damage while wearing power armor.

The flyrant was out of my list before CA and he stays out now. Lictors were about to be phased out of my list because people know how to screen. Now, they're worse than useless.

Where is Magnus? Mortarion? Obliterators? The Changeling?

Why are Shining Spears on this list?


Easy way to tell what units are crazy OP. Go look at the top 10 lists from any major GT. That's it.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I assume that tactical marines are there as a joke

Some people still think they're the best troop choice in the game. They aren't particularly sharp people, but they do exist.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I assume that tactical marines are there as a joke

Some people still think they're the best troop choice in the game. They aren't particularly sharp people, but they do exist.

Maybe in another edition lol
But no I'm a marine player and there are far better things in my codex. Maybe Guilliman PLUS tacticals sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So - guilliman buffing ultra marines is the most overpowered thing in the game before chapter approved...

Yeah - this community is on drugs.

He needs to be 400 points though.

Okay. or. just putting this put there bear with me.

We add equally decent choices. He's an auto take because the codex needs it. Take him away and we got what? Mass S4 Ap- shots and some plas and las sprinkled in? lol

Honestly I feel sorry the community as a whole abused him, but that goes for anything really....

If Gulliman was changed to only allow rerolls of a 1 for hits and wounds, or only all hits - would he then be balanced?

 NurglesR0T wrote:
If Gulliman was changed to only allow rerolls of a 1 for hits and wounds, or only all hits - would he then be balanced?

No. He's a ridiculously expensive Lt/Captain at that point. He just needs the price adjusted accordingly.

Guileman wasn't and isn't just good - he is the lynchpin of tournament-winning lists. Saying he's just "good" is like saying scatbikes in 7th were "okay."

IMO, it's kind of silly to see Dark Reapers on the list (seeing how CA didn't really affect them). If you run points-per-wound, they're hideously inefficient, but only good because of range and a consistent 3+ to hit (or if you take a 150-pt model to buff them).

lol wtf are Lictors even doing on this list? They were usable before CA as ONE OF SEVERAL Genestealer taxis, but compared to something like a Trygon taxi, they weren't much useful.

I will assume it's some kid trolling.

 N.I.B. wrote:
lol wtf are Lictors even doing on this list? They were usable before CA as ONE OF SEVERAL Genestealer taxis, but compared to something like a Trygon taxi, they weren't much useful.

I will assume it's some kid trolling.

Yeah I don't understand the idea with this list. I haven't seen much complaining about Locators, but hey Tacticals are there too lmao

Also I'd like to just ask. What if Guilliman was NOT in the codex? Would marines have even come close to winning any tournaments?

It may have been flukes, but non-Gilly lists have come close to winning tournies.

Not that I refute your central point (that SM isn't at OP levels without Big G).

Hmmm... Seems I'm in the minority in that I think RG isn't bad. I've not played against Lictors yet to know how how good/bad they are.

Where's the general option for everything Forge World? I want to up vote that option. /trolling

Guilliman is OP because he dictates the composition and style of play the army uses. He might not be winning tournaments but when an army has one model that overshadows every other option then there is an issue.

Claiming a model isn't OP because it doesn't win tournaments is a fallacy.

I can agree that auto-include units are no good, but only when those units are auto-include because they're under costed.

IMO RG is auto-include because he's that good and has really good synergy with other units, not because he's under costed.

It's one thing to increase a units points cost for balance based on logic; it's another matter entirely to increase its points cost based on feelings - this is really just a desire to make the unit cost prohibitive.

But he is very undercosted.

But there needs to be quid pro quo balancing after Guilliman, Razorback, and Storm Raven nerfs.

Grey Knights can't use Primaris, which saw the most buffs.

Chapter Approved effectively nerfed Grey Knights, which were already bottom tier.

Can someone justify that? A nerf to Grey Knights?

And also, i don't have chapter approved yet, i'm surprised they nerfed the Hive Tyrant. How'd they do it?

 Xenomancers wrote:
So - guilliman buffing ultra marines is the most overpowered thing in the game before chapter approved...

Yeah - this community is on drugs.

I agree he wasn't the worst problem by far. Malefic Lords were much worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
I can agree that auto-include units are no good, but only when those units are auto-include because they're under costed.

IMO RG is auto-include because he's that good and has really good synergy with other units, not because he's under costed.

It's one thing to increase a units points cost for balance based on logic; it's another matter entirely to increase its points cost based on feelings - this is really just a desire to make the unit cost prohibitive.

Also, I just want to echo this.

 oni wrote:
I've not played against Lictors yet to know how how good/bad they are.

and you probably won't anytime soon because they're actually kinda bad. They're in the poll as a joke option because they got nerfed in the FAQ, despite being one of the poorer units in the tyranid codex to begin with.
See the OPs other thread if you care to know more: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745943.page

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Guileman wasn't and isn't just good - he is the lynchpin of tournament-winning lists. Saying he's just "good" is like saying scatbikes in 7th were "okay."

IMO, it's kind of silly to see Dark Reapers on the list (seeing how CA didn't really affect them). If you run points-per-wound, they're hideously inefficient, but only good because of range and a consistent 3+ to hit (or if you take a 150-pt model to buff them).

Since October there has not been a SM winning list at any major tournament. Not one in the top 15 of the last two GTs (atlanta and SoCal open).

Points per wound math on the reapers puts them at - 30.38 PPW vs typical t7 3+ vehicle after they move vs. 39.09 PPW for the most efficient SM option (las cannon devistator, a quad las predator comes in at 48.86 PPW) It gets even crazier if they are shooting at something with a -1 and they move. This is all without SfD which on a 9 man reaper squad increases their cost by 50% but their shooting by 100% which reduces their PPW even further to 24.4. Nope, not op at all...Only 60% better than A FRICKIN TANK that does 138.6 vs t4 3+ 1wound models vs a respecitable 46.6 (with a 17.6 for the exarch) and they get craft world traits and awesome strategems...

Those numbers look OP to me but probably not to someone who is used to fielding 12-15 ppw shining spears...

Guilliman is OP because he dictates the composition and style of play the army uses. He might not be winning tournaments but when an army has one model that overshadows every other option then there is an issue.

Claiming a model isn't OP because it doesn't win tournaments is a fallacy.

A model may be imbalanced if it is an auto include but this game is not a solo-player game. Unit strength has to be determined when compared to competition. Gulliman is not over-powered as a melee beat-stick most of his utility comes from buffing other units. If he can't buff those other units to a level where they are competitive then how exactly is he OP?

I do agree that Guilliman is a terrible model and bad for the game in general just not that he is OP. If he were to get a re-work or yet another point buff SM as an entire codex would need a re-balance to have any chance to be competitive.

Take a look at tournament results on one of the many sites that you can get them on. If a codex isn't consistently winning it is hard to call it OP because it is not over powering anything. I'm not sure where the space marine salt is coming from but it is not backed up by any competitive results.

SM were OP when they were the only game in town with a codex (and even after GK and AdMech) but starting with the IG codex they have been on the way down and now you don't even see them in top 10s. Meanwhile CSM has had a resurgence even in armies without morty+magnus because cultists, oblits+changeling and demon soup are all very powerful.

I voted Malefic Lords. They were OP before because they were so easily spammed and could dish out mortal wounds like there was no tomorrow. The possibility of having one "hulk out" was too remote to worry about and really shouldn't be a factor in whether or not they were good. Now that CA has dropped and more than doubled their point cost, I doubt we'll ever see another Malefic Lord in a tournament again, except perhaps in an actual Renegades & Heretics list, and even there they won't be that good.

Bobby G should have gone up to 400 points, but at least he got some kind of increase. I do disagree that Marines are helpless without him; I've got a friend who has made some decent lists without him in them. Of course, he also allies in Celestine, so there's that, and she didn't really get nerfed if you were already taking her girlfriends.

As for including Tactical Marines and Lictors in a list of OP units, yeah the author of the poll is just kidding I'm sure. I haven't seen a Tactical Marine in a local tournament around here in a while. And I don't think I've ever seen Lictors; I have no idea what they even look like.

bananathug wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Guileman wasn't and isn't just good - he is the lynchpin of tournament-winning lists. Saying he's just "good" is like saying scatbikes in 7th were "okay."

IMO, it's kind of silly to see Dark Reapers on the list (seeing how CA didn't really affect them). If you run points-per-wound, they're hideously inefficient, but only good because of range and a consistent 3+ to hit (or if you take a 150-pt model to buff them).

Since October there has not been a SM winning list at any major tournament. Not one in the top 15 of the last two GTs (atlanta and SoCal open).

Points per wound math on the reapers puts them at - 30.38 PPW vs typical t7 3+ vehicle after they move vs. 39.09 PPW for the most efficient SM option (las cannon devistator, a quad las predator comes in at 48.86 PPW) It gets even crazier if they are shooting at something with a -1 and they move. This is all without SfD which on a 9 man reaper squad increases their cost by 50% but their shooting by 100% which reduces their PPW even further to 24.4. Nope, not op at all...Only 60% better than A FRICKIN TANK that does 138.6 vs t4 3+ 1wound models vs a respecitable 46.6 (with a 17.6 for the exarch) and they get craft world traits and awesome strategems...

Those numbers look OP to me but probably not to someone who is used to fielding 12-15 ppw shining spears...

Guilliman is OP because he dictates the composition and style of play the army uses. He might not be winning tournaments but when an army has one model that overshadows every other option then there is an issue.

Claiming a model isn't OP because it doesn't win tournaments is a fallacy.

A model may be imbalanced if it is an auto include but this game is not a solo-player game. Unit strength has to be determined when compared to competition. Gulliman is not over-powered as a melee beat-stick most of his utility comes from buffing other units. If he can't buff those other units to a level where they are competitive then how exactly is he OP?

I do agree that Guilliman is a terrible model and bad for the game in general just not that he is OP. If he were to get a re-work or yet another point buff SM as an entire codex would need a re-balance to have any chance to be competitive.

Take a look at tournament results on one of the many sites that you can get them on. If a codex isn't consistently winning it is hard to call it OP because it is not over powering anything. I'm not sure where the space marine salt is coming from but it is not backed up by any competitive results.

SM were OP when they were the only game in town with a codex (and even after GK and AdMech) but starting with the IG codex they have been on the way down and now you don't even see them in top 10s. Meanwhile CSM has had a resurgence even in armies without morty+magnus because cultists, oblits+changeling and demon soup are all very powerful.

I stuck "Warhammer 40000 tournament winning lists" into google (because I don't follow tournament results) and it spat back this page at me:

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

It has Ultramarines (listed specifically seperate from normal SMs I might add) listed as tied 3rd alongside Ynarri and Daemons for top 3 tournament placements. So they clearly aren't doing as badly as people seem to think. Claiming that they're not OP because they aren't winning tournaments is kind of dumb since by that metric ANY army that isn't constantly winning tournaments must not be OP. But we know a bad army can have a single broken list. AdMech are in kind of a "just okay" spot normally but the Cawl+Bots list is very nasty for example. Not to mention it doesn't account for quirks like bad dice and such that may have changed the game.

 Sim-Life wrote:


It has Ultramarines (listed specifically seperate from normal SMs I might add) listed as tied 3rd alongside Ynarri and Daemons for top 3 tournament placements. So they clearly aren't doing as badly as people seem to think.

The problem with many SM players is that they consider their army or codex "bad" because 3-4 factions are better than them.

An army that is doing bad means that 15+ factions, each one with more than a single tournament built, are clearly better IMHO. That's not the case of course.

Haha, 59 vote on Lictors, that's some successful trolling! Let's get the Maleceptor in here too!

 Sim-Life wrote:

bananathug wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Guileman wasn't and isn't just good - he is the lynchpin of tournament-winning lists. Saying he's just "good" is like saying scatbikes in 7th were "okay."

IMO, it's kind of silly to see Dark Reapers on the list (seeing how CA didn't really affect them). If you run points-per-wound, they're hideously inefficient, but only good because of range and a consistent 3+ to hit (or if you take a 150-pt model to buff them).

Since October there has not been a SM winning list at any major tournament. Not one in the top 15 of the last two GTs (atlanta and SoCal open).

Points per wound math on the reapers puts them at - 30.38 PPW vs typical t7 3+ vehicle after they move vs. 39.09 PPW for the most efficient SM option (las cannon devistator, a quad las predator comes in at 48.86 PPW) It gets even crazier if they are shooting at something with a -1 and they move. This is all without SfD which on a 9 man reaper squad increases their cost by 50% but their shooting by 100% which reduces their PPW even further to 24.4. Nope, not op at all...Only 60% better than A FRICKIN TANK that does 138.6 vs t4 3+ 1wound models vs a respecitable 46.6 (with a 17.6 for the exarch) and they get craft world traits and awesome strategems...

Those numbers look OP to me but probably not to someone who is used to fielding 12-15 ppw shining spears...

Guilliman is OP because he dictates the composition and style of play the army uses. He might not be winning tournaments but when an army has one model that overshadows every other option then there is an issue.

Claiming a model isn't OP because it doesn't win tournaments is a fallacy.

A model may be imbalanced if it is an auto include but this game is not a solo-player game. Unit strength has to be determined when compared to competition. Gulliman is not over-powered as a melee beat-stick most of his utility comes from buffing other units. If he can't buff those other units to a level where they are competitive then how exactly is he OP?

I do agree that Guilliman is a terrible model and bad for the game in general just not that he is OP. If he were to get a re-work or yet another point buff SM as an entire codex would need a re-balance to have any chance to be competitive.

Take a look at tournament results on one of the many sites that you can get them on. If a codex isn't consistently winning it is hard to call it OP because it is not over powering anything. I'm not sure where the space marine salt is coming from but it is not backed up by any competitive results.

SM were OP when they were the only game in town with a codex (and even after GK and AdMech) but starting with the IG codex they have been on the way down and now you don't even see them in top 10s. Meanwhile CSM has had a resurgence even in armies without morty+magnus because cultists, oblits+changeling and demon soup are all very powerful.

I stuck "Warhammer 40000 tournament winning lists" into google (because I don't follow tournament results) and it spat back this page at me:

http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

It has Ultramarines (listed specifically seperate from normal SMs I might add) listed as tied 3rd alongside Ynarri and Daemons for top 3 tournament placements. So they clearly aren't doing as badly as people seem to think. Claiming that they're not OP because they aren't winning tournaments is kind of dumb since by that metric ANY army that isn't constantly winning tournaments must not be OP. But we know a bad army can have a single broken list. AdMech are in kind of a "just okay" spot normally but the Cawl+Bots list is very nasty for example. Not to mention it doesn't account for quirks like bad dice and such that may have changed the game.

Let me bold the part that it seems like you missed:

SM were OP when they were the only game in town with a codex (and even after GK and AdMech) but starting with the IG codex they have been on the way down and now you don't even see them in top 10s. Meanwhile CSM has had a resurgence even in armies without morty+magnus because cultists, oblits+changeling and demon soup are all very powerful.

Those 13 wins are from before the craftworld codex dropped (most from even before the AM codex dropped). SM with codex was OP vs every other index army. As other codexes have come out SM has gone from top to bottom tier (along with GK and AdMech which were never top tier because of Index guard/codex SM). Among those armies at the bottom tier SM was the only one with a significant NERF to an already struggling COMPETITIVE build (CSM got malific lords nerfed but they were not really struggling, will be curious to see what comes of them, death guard are in a bit of a weird place as Morty keeps them around top tables but you really don't see too many of their other units and rarely see mono DG)

I agree that a bad army can have one good list (see most index armies now, greentide, commander spam...) but I think that is how you tease out what the imbalanced units are (those that are better than those in the same index). But then you have to compare those imbalanced units vs. other lists with their imbalanced units to see what is really OP. Best way to do that would be looking at the results from many tournaments where hundreds of people are throwing thousands of dice which hopefully can give you a view of the power of the units vs. luck of the dice.

The way to definitely not do it is to get curb-stomped by some guy at your local FLGS and point to his list and say XXX is overpowered which is what I feel a lot of people are doing with the nerf rowboat chants.

I'd love to end up being wrong but from what I can see from the DATA available SM were already trending down in competitiveness and seem to have been pushed even further down that direction by the recent CA changes just as more and more codexes are being released that are significantly more competitive than the SM one.

Lol, somebody pin this as an example of why GW should never pay attention to internet threads.

How much were malific lords anyway? Seeing as how the votes for them is almost doubled over Guilliman

They used to be 30 points I think and are now 80. Someone who plays em can correct me if I'm wrong.

This vote should really have been restarted after CA dropped. It's really shifted the meta and I think some people will answer differently now.

I actually said Celestine because she could be literally put into any army and do a good job. Her points cost was faaaaar to low for the amount of hurt she put out and her army wide buffs and durability were insane value. Her high movement meant that she could effectively engage any unit on the board in a couple turns.

She was the most OP thing to me because she literally worked in ANY army.

But if you built an entire army around one unit, I would say Malefic and Rob. G. were the most busted.

And Rob G. is still busted.