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I see you've missed the point, so I'll break it down in steps. BEFORE the BA codex, during the age of index play, would you have ruled that flesh tearers could not take sanguinary priests, baal predictors, ect?

If anyone came to play me with a Space Wolves successor army I wouldn't go "there is no rule allowing successors and all the fluff says your army isn't possible!"

I'd say "Nice models and fluff, bro, we playing Maelstrom or Eternal War?"

The universe has so much scope for cool stuff.

 MattKing wrote:
I see you've missed the point, so I'll break it down in steps. BEFORE the BA codex, during the age of index play, would you have ruled that flesh tearers could not take sanguinary priests, baal predictors, ect?

Where are you getting the idea that the codex prevents Blood Angels successors can't take Sanguinary Priests and Baal Predators?

 Ghaz wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
I see you've missed the point, so I'll break it down in steps. BEFORE the BA codex, during the age of index play, would you have ruled that flesh tearers could not take sanguinary priests, baal predictors, ect?

Where are you getting the idea that the codex prevents Blood Angels successors can't take Sanguinary Priests and Baal Predators?

He's not, reads to me like he's making a parallel to pre-Codex, when there was no "successor rule" yet no-one would have prevented Flesh Tearers from using BA units. Yet BCB is saying there can't be Space Wolf successors because fluff reasons, and attempting to say the lack of a rule also makes it RAW, yet not so long ago Flesh Tearers would have been in the same boat.

From page 89 of Index Imperium 1:

BLOOD ANGELS SUCCESSOR CHAPTERS

There are many proud Space Marine Chapters that trace their origins to the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. From the frenzied Flesh Tearers to the brooding Angels Vermillion, all share the martial prowess and fiery bloodlust of their forefather Sanguinius. If you wish to theme your army as a Blood Angels successor Chapter, use the rules presented in this section but substitute the Blood Angels keyword in all instances on the datasheets and rules presented in this section with the name of your Blood Angels successor Chapter. Note, however, that named characters that can only be included in your army once cannot be from any other Chapter – Commander Dante is the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels Chapter, and not any successor Chapter.

What was that about the Index not having a "successor rule"?

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 89 of Index Imperium 1:

BLOOD ANGELS SUCCESSOR CHAPTERS

There are many proud Space Marine Chapters that trace their origins to the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. From the frenzied Flesh Tearers to the brooding Angels Vermillion, all share the martial prowess and fiery bloodlust of their forefather Sanguinius. If you wish to theme your army as a Blood Angels successor Chapter, use the rules presented in this section but substitute the Blood Angels keyword in all instances on the datasheets and rules presented in this section with the name of your Blood Angels successor Chapter. Note, however, that named characters that can only be included in your army once cannot be from any other Chapter – Commander Dante is the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels Chapter, and not any successor Chapter.

What was that about the Index not having a "successor rule"?

I've no idea, it's all a silly spat about what colours people can paint their toy soldiers anyway.

 MattKing wrote:
I see you've missed the point, so I'll break it down in steps. BEFORE the BA codex, during the age of index play, would you have ruled that flesh tearers could not take sanguinary priests, baal predictors, ect?

Before the codex doesn't matter any more because the codex is out. Might as well ask me what the answer would have been in 4th edition.

Also, the index has the Successor Chapter rule too. You're trying so hard to try and trap people that you've fallen into one yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
What was that about the Index not having a "successor rule"?

Now now Ghaz, we can't be having things like "facts" and "citations" come into this. That would be silly and an abuse of the rules!

As far as I see it, how you've painted your dudes and suchlike is up to you. Doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, your Carcharadons can use BA rules, your Blood Ravens can use Space Wolves rules just as much as my Ultramarines can represent either fully.

Where I draw the line is named Characters interacting in this way. Aka, I can't take Tyberos in OP's list, because he's a <Carcharadon>, and everyone else is using <Blood Angels> rules. Same as using Gabriel Angelos, who has the <Blood Ravens> keyword instead of <Space Wolves>. If that's allowed to fly, I see no reason I can't take Guilliman and have him affect <Raven Guard> units instead of <Ultramarines> units.

So, different versions outlined below:

I have an Space Marine army painted in the colours of the Carcharadons Chapter with Tyberos, who has the <Carcharadons> keyword. These are my options of running it.

- I take a fluffwise approach, and use the Raven Guard successor rules, staying as <Caracharadons>. I get the RG doctrines, but can't use their Warlord Traits and only get one Relic, no <Raven Guard> unique characters like Shrike, but I can take Tyberos.
- I take take a mix of fluff and game potential, and count my army as having the <Raven Guard> chapter. I get to use all their Warlord Traits, Relics and characters like Shrike, but I CANNOT take Tyberos, because he has the <Carcharadons> Keyword, and this cannot be changed out.
- I choose something which might better represent their playstyle and use Blood Angels successor rules, staying as <Carcharadons>. I get to take BA units and doctrines, but no access to their Warlord traits, only one Relic, and cannot take <Blood Angels> unique characters, like Dante. I can still take Tyberos.
- I go all out on in-game effect, and use the <Blood Angels> rules. I have full access to all Blood Angels units, Warlord Traits and characters like Dante, but Tyberos CANNOT be taken, because he has the <Carcharadons> keyword, and this cannot be changed.

Basically, there is functionally (to me) no difference between using Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, or Codex: Space Wolves as your repository for rules, but if a model has a set Keyword, that cannot be changed. In this vein, Azrael cannot buff units from the <Angels of Absolution>, despite the Angels being DA successors. They would have to be Count-As'd as <Dark Angels> if they wanted to benefit from Azrael's Dark Angel buffs. In this case, you'd have models painted as the Angels of Absolution, but for all in-game purposes,
they would count as <Dark Angels>.

Essentially, I could not take Captain Blaylock of the Novamarines Chapters and Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines together, despite the Novamarines using the Ultramarine doctrines and being canon Ultramarine successors, because Blaylock is "locked" (heh) into <Novamarines> and Guilliman has to use the <Ultramarines> rules.

If one wanted to have counts-as Blood Angels Carcharodons, and still use Tyberos Model, the easiest solution would be just to have 'Tyberos' to use rules for BA terminator captain with a chainfist and a lightning claw.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Again, this seems like a fluff argument not a RAW argument.

Did you totally ignore the part where I pointed out the rules? The rules that don't permit you to use anything but the SPACE WOLVES keyword on Space Wolves units?

Which means from a fluff (or if you prefer, a Forge That Narrative) standpoint you can call them Puppies of Doom, Rainbow Raiders or whatever you want, but from a rules standpoint you use SPACE WOLVES as the keyword and only use stuff for SPACE WOLVES.

 Crimson wrote:
If one wanted to have counts-as Blood Angels Carcharodons, and still use Tyberos Model, the easiest solution would be just to have 'Tyberos' to use rules for BA terminator captain with a chainfist and a lightning claw.

True, I was referring to the ACTUAL Tyberos, statline and all, but yes, you could use the Tyberos model as a Terminator Captain, same as you could use the Captain Sicarius model to represent a White Scars Captain with power sword and plasma pistol.

 Crimson wrote:
If one wanted to have counts-as Blood Angels Carcharodons, and still use Tyberos Model, the easiest solution would be just to have 'Tyberos' to use rules for BA terminator captain with a chainfist and a lightning claw.

That WOULD be obvious, yes, but the question is, if I wanted to, I could run Carcharodons as a Blood Angels successor.

Obviously Phoros can be ran as such.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
If one wanted to have counts-as Blood Angels Carcharodons, and still use Tyberos Model, the easiest solution would be just to have 'Tyberos' to use rules for BA terminator captain with a chainfist and a lightning claw.

That WOULD be obvious, yes, but the question is, if I wanted to, I could run Carcharodons as a Blood Angels successor.

Obviously Phoros can be ran as such.

Sure you can, since they have an unknown parent chapter (though as pointed out RaW even if they didn't you still have the option of picking a trait), but you won't be able to benefit from the FW Tyberos rules since you can't pick "Carcharodons" as your keyword, thanks to the anti-wu-tang-klan FAQ.