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 Kej wrote:
Other armies benefited exponetially more from the removal of Twin Linked where Orks have remained statistically the same...

TL on a 3+ ballistic skill is less effective than two 3+ shots giving them roughly a 50% increase in firepower.

Now looking at the Orks hitting on a 5+ Twin Linked meant you were roughly shooting near a 4+ BS which allowed Orks to actually rely on their shooting. 2 shots at 5+ gives roughly a 10%increase.

So you have armies out there with relatively large increases to their firepower in an edition where the survivability of everything non-infantry increased and Orks are living in the past editions for effectiveness of firepower.

The only way to make it fair is to increase Ork firepower by another 50% AT MINIMUM. So, Big Shootas should be 5 shots at minimum, but i feel that should require som AP being attached as well. If they want to leave the statline the same then i feel it should get 6 shots.

The only way to fix Ork shooting is to increase its volume or increase their BS, which won't happen.

My overall suggestion is to just forget that Orks even carry guns this edition, and more than likely a few more after this one, and just do what they want you to do...throw 120 Boyz on the table and walk across, and still loose due to fall back and bubble wraps.

This is unfortunately really true.

Twinlink on on a bs3+ platform meant 33% more hits, on a 4+ 50% and on a 5+ 66%. They were all replaced with a fixed +100% (and increased costs), the problem is that SM gained a lot from this (from 33% to 100%) and the Orks got the least (from 66% to 100%). This is also the reason why SM have a lot of effects that allow rerolls, because they are the ones that gain the least from them, so GW could give them in quantity without too much concern. Rerolls on Orks would be huge now.

I'd like to see everything that orks have to become more expensive but more potent at the same time. Primorks ftw.

 Tsol wrote:

If they were to make them BS4 again, they'd drop the Dakka Dakka or significantly increase the price to compensate. Right now the army is built strictly for melee with a couple okay shooting units. I'd like to see that changed in the codex.

Even with BS4+ and the current weapons' costs orks shooting wouldn't be sensational. Decent, but not even remotely overpowered. SM, eldar, AM, etc would outshoot us anyway.

I voted for 3 points. I have much preferred Big Shoota over Rockits over the years. I take no squad weapon any more because there were more reliable options due mostly to older game mechanics. If my Boys were shooting they weren't stuck in. I think I decided this because Rockits in boys mobs were weaker than a mob of Tank Bustas. And what I said just before that. A twin Big Shoota on a War Trakk was a better option than a Big Shoota in a mob. Based on being able to take sever solo War Trakks or sever mobs of 2 in some lists, they could put in some good work and waste the enemy's fire power to destroy them. 3 points seems very reasonable. 6 points is too much when I can just field Shoota boys and Mek/Big Gunz. On a side note, we already have Tank Bustas but I'd love a unit of just Big Shootas. Never enough Dakka.

And that leads to another point. Big Shoota mobz. Would you be willing to pay 12ppm for a mob of 5-15 boyz all armed with Big Shootas? Does that feel right? I'd be willing to part with maybe 9ppm for a mob like that but that is it. On the other hand if they made Big shootas Assault 6 with -1AP then I would take them at 12ppm.

I think I would. It's a bit high but I'd also be paying for an abundance of Big Shootas. I think I'd be happy if they were 10 points each though. No opinion on better stats.

GW should pay us to take it

Making Orks BS4+ seems like a good idea as well. Most of their gear is assault as well, so they'd be advancing and shooting for that -1.

Might need to add 1 point to them though. Maybe one of the clan traits could give +1 to hit as a bonus.

I would just make the orks immune to all hit penalties, including the ones coming from moving with heavy and advancing with assault weapons. Make it so they never hit on something better than 5+, but also never less than that.

An Ork racial quality that let them ignore the advancing penalty might help. Call it something like "We'z wasn't aimin anywayz"

Oh in its current incarnation, due to it losing it armour piercing value from previous editions, I'd pay no more then 4 pts and would be happy for less.

It would be easier to simply make them BS4+ than give them special rules that devalue other factions' special rules.

So almost the same amount of people think the Big Shoota is correctly priced or too cheap compared to reducingnit to 1pt. The. Sat majority want it at 2-4pts and a rather large minority want it kept at 6pts but increase its stats.

I think it's fair to say at this point that the Big Shoota is Heavily over priced (33-66%).

I enjoy Orks having BS 5+, but at the same time I think Ork shooting should be improved. In my mind Orks are bad at shooting but Ork shooting is effective due to mass volume and ridiculously overpowered (if unreliable) weapons.

That said, I don't see a problem with some units being BS 4+.

 koooaei wrote:
I'd like to see everything that orks have to become more expensive but more potent at the same time. Primorks ftw.

Ideally I'd like Orks to be playable both as smaller, more elite forces or as big hordes. Right now some of our more elite stuff doesn't pack enough punch to really be scary (like the Not-So-Killy Kannon), or even if it does pack a decent punch it costs way too much and/or is difficult to use (Flashgitz, Meganobz).

If GW were to say that we had to choose between horde or elite I would say go with horde for Orks, but I don't see a reason why it can't be both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warhead01 wrote:
I voted for 3 points. I have much preferred Big Shoota over Rockits over the years. I take no squad weapon any more because there were more reliable options due mostly to older game mechanics. If my Boys were shooting they weren't stuck in. I think I decided this because Rockits in boys mobs were weaker than a mob of Tank Bustas. And what I said just before that. A twin Big Shoota on a War Trakk was a better option than a Big Shoota in a mob. Based on being able to take sever solo War Trakks or sever mobs of 2 in some lists, they could put in some good work and waste the enemy's fire power to destroy them. 3 points seems very reasonable. 6 points is too much when I can just field Shoota boys and Mek/Big Gunz. On a side note, we already have Tank Bustas but I'd love a unit of just Big Shootas. Never enough Dakka.

I also prefer Big Shootas over Rokkits. I like Rokkits but I love Big Shootas. I would really enjoy a mob of Big Shoota Boyz, partly because like most Ork players I've got a bazillion of them and they could be fun to use in Apocalyse even if their rules weren't the best. Giving them a Flash Git for a free sergeant upgrade would also be cool.

Flash Gitz used to be regular Boyz with Kustom Shootas* and the ability to take more Big Shootas than normal in the unit. I really like the new Flash Git models, but it would be nice to get a unit of Boyz with Kustom** and Big Shootas back, In some ways they might be easier to balance than Flash Gitz because there wouldn't be as big of an argument about them being good in close combat.
*Back then Shootas were Rapid Fire 24" and the entire mob could take one Kustom Shoota option (S5/Assault 2/AP2 + Gets Hot). I remember Flash Gitz being overpriced back then because the Kustom Shoota rules made them too expensive and they were hard to use because Rapid Fire meant if the unit moved it only got one shot at 12". I guess things really haven't changed.
**Kustom Shootas should be a lot cheaper.


This doesn't really have anything to do with balance, but I like it when Orks have something like a "career path" that they can follow. Something like the following:
Yoof* -- Boy -- Elite Boy -- Nob -- Boss

By "Elite Boy" I mean all kinds of specialists like Tankbustas and Lootas as well non-specialist elites like Skarboyz* and 'Ard Boyz*.
*Of course, we don't currently have Yoofs, Skarboyz or 'Ard Boyz.

We can simulate a lot of things pretty well, for instance:
Boyz Mob w/ Rokkit Special Weapons -- Tanbustas -- Nobz w/ Kombi-Rokkits and Ammo Runts -- Warboss w/ Kombi-Rokkit and Ammo Runt

It's cool to have actual units rather than simulating them, but I don't think it should be a priority for GW. More of a "maybe down the road someday" kind of a thing.

So it appears the majority believe the Big Shoota should cost between 2-4pts. The next largest group believes it should be buffed a minority think it should be 1pt, stay the same or be more expensive.

Thanks for voting everyone.