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Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
That story sounds terrible. But it also did not take place on Ullanor.


Great contribution. It was during the Ullanor Crusade, same difference.


Thank you!

Was it, though? The official description doesn't say anything about Ullanor either way, but many of the reviews say it takes places before the Ullanor crusade. For example:

The Wolf of Ash and Fire was very enjoyable, if not without flaws. Being a prequel story, set before even the Ullanor Crusade, this short story nonetheless references and strengthens plot points and twists throughout more recent Horus Heresy installments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/24 15:13:16


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

It's the precursor to Ullanor.

Which makes me think the megamek near death experience with Horus saving BiggiE may not be the only one, as he was supposedly almost choked out during the Ullanor crusade by a warboss too?
   
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Thank you!

Was it, though? The official description doesn't say anything about Ullanor either way, but many of the reviews say it takes places before the Ullanor crusade. For example:

The Wolf of Ash and Fire was very enjoyable, if not without flaws. Being a prequel story, set before even the Ullanor Crusade, this short story nonetheless references and strengthens plot points and twists throughout more recent Horus Heresy installments.

Right so you're picking on a very specific and largely irrelevant part of my post for what reason now? And best of all you haven't even read the book that I'm talking about?

My point was clearly to highlight how the Orks may have had more of an effect on the HH than people think. Whether the events of Wolf of Ash and Fire are before, during, or after the Ullanor campaign is entirely irrelevant to this. It's a precursor the HH either way. It's events shaped the HH. Get it? Not sure I can make it any more clear or simple for you.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Thank you!

Was it, though? The official description doesn't say anything about Ullanor either way, but many of the reviews say it takes places before the Ullanor crusade. For example:

The Wolf of Ash and Fire was very enjoyable, if not without flaws. Being a prequel story, set before even the Ullanor Crusade, this short story nonetheless references and strengthens plot points and twists throughout more recent Horus Heresy installments.

Right so you're picking on a very specific and largely irrelevant part of my post for what reason now? And best of all you haven't even read the book that I'm talking about?

My point was clearly to highlight how the Orks may have had more of an effect on the HH than people think. Whether the events of Wolf of Ash and Fire are before, during, or after the Ullanor campaign is entirely irrelevant to this. It's a precursor the HH either way. It's events shaped the HH. Get it? Not sure I can make it any more clear or simple for you.


But you were responding to this:

Then how come that at Ullanor (one of the biggest Ork empires of its time), the Imperium managed to win by sending "only" a few millions soldiers of the Imperial Army and around 100k Astartes ?


And this:
Space Marines are all about doing a lot with a little- for all we know, they spearheaded right into the heart of Ullanor, and aimed a decapitation strike right at the prime Ork


So I was pointing out that the story you mentioned isn't relevant to the posts you were replying to. Which might matter to those people who were talking about what happened on Ullanor.
   
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Just going put it out there that at the end of story suggesting the Emperor planned for the heresy the character saying as such admitted to lying. About what he lied wasn't said but the Emperor absolutely waiting the Heresy in some variation to occur is by no means definitively confirmed.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

2) The Eldar are part of the weird Alpha Legion conspiracy so are hoping the Imperium and Chaos destroy eachother without any Eldar dying:

This is contradicted by Eldrad showing up during the events of Fulgrim.

The Cabal is made up of several ancient alien races. One is mentioned being an Eldar Autarch but I don't think that means that Eldar as a whole are behind the Cabal, or the Alpha Legion shenanigans. Similarly Eldrad represents a faction that is both interventionist and moderate. Whilst I would not go so far as to describe him as "pro-human", I think he recognises the pragmatism in allying against a common foe. I think many Eldar would simply treat all other races as pests to be exterminated (if they could) rather than picking and choosing between them.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
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Agile Revenant Titan






 Karhedron wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:

2) The Eldar are part of the weird Alpha Legion conspiracy so are hoping the Imperium and Chaos destroy eachother without any Eldar dying:

This is contradicted by Eldrad showing up during the events of Fulgrim.

The Cabal is made up of several ancient alien races. One is mentioned being an Eldar Autarch but I don't think that means that Eldar as a whole are behind the Cabal, or the Alpha Legion shenanigans. Similarly Eldrad represents a faction that is both interventionist and moderate. Whilst I would not go so far as to describe him as "pro-human", I think he recognises the pragmatism in allying against a common foe. I think many Eldar would simply treat all other races as pests to be exterminated (if they could) rather than picking and choosing between them.


Agreed.

It's a common fallacy with other races in scifi or fantasy (or, hell, different cultures in the real world) to assume that they're unified in one mind or purpose. Stuff like assuming that if one elf is behind the fellowship that all elves are on their side.

In reality, any sufficiently varied culture is going to have dozens of different standpoints. Really, the eldar are even more fragmented and disunified than the Imperium.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Albino Squirrel wrote:
But you were responding to this:

Then how come that at Ullanor (one of the biggest Ork empires of its time), the Imperium managed to win by sending "only" a few millions soldiers of the Imperial Army and around 100k Astartes ?


And this:
Space Marines are all about doing a lot with a little- for all we know, they spearheaded right into the heart of Ullanor, and aimed a decapitation strike right at the prime Ork


So I was pointing out that the story you mentioned isn't relevant to the posts you were replying to. Which might matter to those people who were talking about what happened on Ullanor.


No, I was responding to this, actually;

Spoiler:
his has always felt like a very strange thing to me.

The Eldar are a dying race, slowly dwindling away. So by definition there has to be more Eldar alive during the Horus Heresy than during the 41st Millennium. Its only 200 years since the Fall. Despite this the Craftworlds play a MAJOR role in the story of 40k. Either acting as direct allies to the Imperium against Chaos, especially Slannesh who is their Great Enemy and by manipulating events in a way that will save the Eldar. We see plenty of examples of this in 40k. Even in the Gathering Storm, a story overwhelmingly about the Return of Guilliman they play a pivotal role in those proceedings. Plus, the Eldar frequently find themselves targeted by Chaos anyway, especially Slannesh.

So to me its never made much sense how minor a role the Eldar play in the Horus Heresy. From what I've read theres a few excuses used for this:

1) The Eldar haven't recovered from the Great Crusade:

This argument makes no sense because the Eldar are incapable of recovering as a species: every Eldar lost means the subsequent generation will be smaller due to She Who Thirsts and the inability for Eldar souls to be reincarnated. A good example is Craftworld Lyanden. This is before the Tyranids wiped out this most populous craftworld which means it would still have far more people on it than the few thousand it does. Despite this, all of the Craftworlds are major players in the galaxy. So there are more Eldar during the Horus Heresy.

2) The Eldar are part of the weird Alpha Legion conspiracy so are hoping the Imperium and Chaos destroy eachother without any Eldar dying:

This is contradicted by Eldrad showing up during the events of Fulgrim. Its also extremely unlikely that every craftworld could or would agree to this insane plan. It is also an extremely risky plan. If you read Ruinstorm, Sanguinious sees visions of the future in which Chaos triumphs and consumes the galaxy with Horus Dark Empire ascendant. It is obviously a very bad idea to "do nothing" in this situation and it obviously isn't the only future that might be gleamed.

Basically its very "out of character" for the Eldar to have not attacked the Traitor Legions during the Horus Heresy. You can't argue that "Horus Traitor Legions are too powerful" since the he is nowhere near as powerful as the Chaos army unleashed during the events of the Dark Imperium. If Horus wins, they die. It makes much more sense to make common cause with the Imperium; for which there is a very long precedent. Plus it doesn't make sense to have a MAJOR player in the story be essentially uninvolved in such a major galactic event which very much involves them. If Horus wins, Slannesh will use the Emperors Children to consume every Eldar soul. Plus the Eldar know that the Rhana Dhandra or final war against Chaos will come; so they should know that this won't work. They know that they must die to destroy Slannesh so they wouldn't buy that "oh yeah Horus can destroy Chaos".


Dark Eldar:

The Dark Eldar have pretty much every reason to take advantage of the Chaos and attack the Imperium and Horus Dark Empire. Both armies are distracted by their own civil war. It would be the perfect time to reave and enslave countless human worlds. As far as I am aware this is not the case. The Dark Eldar are just not acting in character and politely letting the Imperium have a breather before attacking them; which in 40k they do on a regular occurance.

Orks:

Now this is possibly the only one for which you could legit argue there is a good excuse. We know that immediately before the events of the Horus Heresy the Emperor destroyed a vast Ork Empire on Ullanor which was led by a Prime Ork. The events of the Beast Arises imply that the Orks do not recover for 2000 years when another Prime Ork rises. In fact, as far as we know, the Orks never reach that point again after this point with Ghasghull possibly on the cusp of evolving into a Prime Ork and returning his species to that more advanced stage of Waaagh.

But, we also know Orks. They never stop fighting. They breed incredibly quickly and can recover their strength very quickly. Ullanor can't have been the only Ork Empire. In Know no Fear they mention another Ork Empire near Ultramar for example. Plus it mentioned briefly that the Orks do take advantage of the civil war to attack the Imperium in book 3. However this isn't followed up on or developed. Again, you would be forgiven for thinking the Imperium is being given a polite breather whilst it fights it civil war. Which is really out of character, the Orks would probably rampage across a divided Imperium.

Also, the Orks aren't stupid. They can, in their own way, recognise when Chaos is up to no good and tend to attack Chaos. If Horus wins, they die.


Now, you could argue that all this is simply due to the limited scope of the books; focused on the Legions. That the Xenos probably did attack the Imperium and Horus during the Heresy; its just beyond the scope of the novels. The problem is that the series has gone on for so long its a glaring omission. These races play a major role in the galaxy later on. Plus, for a series that often likes to tell us "how bad things are getting" it doesn't make sense not to mention an alien assault. So the inference is that it isn't happening or is irrelevant. It also creates a major disconnect between the Horus Heresy and the rest of the lore. You would be forgiven for thinking humans are the only species in the galaxy or that the Eldar were fully dead dead. The amount of times Imperial or Chaos just waltzes into Eldar ruins or even the webway without being shot at is remarkable. Obviously in 40k the Imperium is being attacked by Chaos AND Xenos. Chaos isn't just attacking the Imperium but is a threat to all life. The story of the Horus Heresy only makes sense if the xenos don't attack the Imperium and chaos doesn't attack the xenos. Which is kind of unlikely and a bit of a plot hole.


Have you read A Wolf of Ash and Fire? Do you have any idea where it is set and when? No? I guess you shouldn't comment on things that you're ignorant about then?

The story is set right before the Horus Heresy. It is literally the precursor to the HH books. I'm quite certain having actually read the book that the events there are the start, or even mid way through the Ullanor campaign.

You're welcome to disagree, once you've bothered to read what it is I'm discussing of course, rather than going off google search "review - A Wolf of Ash and Fire".
   
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Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say



UK

They probably are all raiding the imperium but at the end of the day they're small fry compared to 9 legions and they're primarchs who are focused on taking terra while the loyalists are completely focussed on defending it.

Some Agri world on the edge of known space being raided by xenos isn't a big deal compared to that


"That's how a Luna Wolf fights."
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"It had often been said that Space Marines knew no fear, but when Angron charged, he ran" 
   
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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Just going put it out there that at the end of story suggesting the Emperor planned for the heresy the character saying as such admitted to lying. About what he lied wasn't said but the Emperor absolutely waiting the Heresy in some variation to occur is by no means definitively confirmed.


Of course if that was lie there wasn't anything of note that wasn't lie.

Combine that with it being only way Emperor's actions make any sense without assuming he's braindead idiot...

So it's either assume it's true and have semi-sensible story or assume that's lie and have whole story not make any sense whatsoever.

Also it's not like Emperor is shown to be unwilling to get rid of tools after they have been used and as noted in Heresy books grand crusade was about to be over with just cleaning up left basically...Marines themselves wondered what will be of them soon and how they have been basically replaced from in charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/25 09:53:43


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Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Dial it down a bit please.


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Aspirant Tech-Adept




UK

I think it boils down to no other force in the galaxy was in a position to challenge the might of the imperium/traitor legions in a meaningful way. While other forces may have been able to take advantage on the fringes of the imperium, nothing in the galaxy was stupid enough to get in the way of 2 behemoths tearing eachother apart.

There may have been other things at play, but in a conquest campaign at least I would think this holds true.

Breaking it down:

Eldar were reeling from The Fall
Orks were in disarray after their empire was crushed at Ullanor and too disunited to wage a giant campaign
Necrons were still sleeping
Tyranids were nomming somewhere else
Tau were still pooping in their hands and throwing it at eachother
Other non-playable factions didn't have a major powerbase.

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Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

I think the main reason why the Eldar are not getting involved with the Heresy is that they are all still trying to deal with Slaanesh sucking on their souls. It should be that most of the Crafotworlds are still very close to the Eye of Terror (sub light travel and all that, it would literally take almost all of the following 10 000 years for Iyanden to reach the Eastern Fringes), the Path system would be neither well developed or spread out amongst the Carftworlds (so no Aspect Warriors and frankly Seers like Farseers and Warlocks would be a bit different as well), and the Iyanden supplement from 6th ed has already stated that Iyanden were the first Craftworld to find the use for Soulstones about 200 years after the fall. That pretty much puts it at the start of the Heresy. This ones the most important because without Soulstones there's no way to save the soul of a dead Eldar, there's no Wraith constructs walking around and given what happens when they die I really doubt they would be willing to go to war at this point.

Unfortunately we then get books like Fulgrim, which gakks all over the more logical interpretation of what the Eldar are like post fall, and Jain Zar which is increadibly screwy with it's time line.

As for the Dark Eldar, there are no Kabals, Cults or Covens as we know them in 40K, there are a few ruling noble houses and the pleasure cults that will liekly form the Wych Cults and Haemonculus Covens in time. They didn't care when Slaanesh blew away 90% of their race so I seriously doubt they care what the silly mon-keigh are up to. The only reason they would ever have to interact with the Imperium would be for a fun and blood sport but there's no reason to think that would have been anything like as regualr an occurance as it later becomes, heck I don't think it's ever been said when it was discovered that torture was a good way for them to replenish their souls.
   
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Wasn't it Maugan Ra finding out about Soul Stones in Jain Zar?

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