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 Aetare wrote:
My question is, Sanguinius was isolated when he faced Horus, right? No one is alive who witnessed that fun conversation and almost as epic duel.

space marines can access memories of an individual by consuming that person. All blood angels drink their primarch's living blood. Given enough time they tend to remember the fight (and it sends them into a death frenzy).

 Grimgold wrote:
he still refers to the primarchs by their batch number

As ADB has said over and over again, this is a misreading of Master of Mankind. The Emperor doesn't even speak. Every word people think they hear him utter is a psychic projection interpreted by their own brain and filtered through their own prejudices. If a character who dislikes, distrusts and generally looks down on the primarchs (like Arkhan Land or Ra Endymion) 'hears' the Emperor refer to one of them, they 'hear' a number. But Magnus 'heard' the Emperor address him by his own name in the prologue of that exact same book. Because Magnus at that point still thought of the Emperor as his father. Neither of these cases tell us anything at all about how the Emperor himself felt about the primarchs.

nareik wrote:

 Aetare wrote:
My question is, Sanguinius was isolated when he faced Horus, right? No one is alive who witnessed that fun conversation and almost as epic duel.

space marines can access memories of an individual by consuming that person. All blood angels drink their primarch's living blood. Given enough time they tend to remember the fight (and it sends them into a death frenzy).

Interesting. I suppose that’s where the Black Rage comes from.

I'll bet money that Ollanus is there when it goes down and I think that he'll use the anathame to breach Vengeful Spirit's shields, delivering the strike force with him.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I'll bet money that Ollanus is there when it goes down and I think that he'll use the anathame to breach Vengeful Spirit's shields, delivering the strike force with him.

... actually that's a REALLY good thought, it addresses one of the biggest plot holes in the HH too "... wait why'd Horus take down his shields?" the answer is "He didn't"

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I'll bet money that Ollanus is there when it goes down and I think that he'll use the anathame to breach Vengeful Spirit's shields, delivering the strike force with him.

I suspect the shield job is going to either Little Horus or the Vindicare assassin already running around on the Spirit. With perhaps Russ doing some damage on the way out.
I think Ollie might turn up after the fact. Finding Emp wreaked, but renewing. Then stick him when hes down. Hes the only one with a perpetual removal device running around. Unless Eldrad turns up on the bridge as well.

 Grimgold wrote:
So the existing lore is, Sanguinius finds Horus, the two fight, horus kills sanguinius, then the emperor comes along fights horus, is mortally wounded and kills horus. Later Rogal Dorn comes in picks up Big E, but Big E is unresponsive having had his arm torn off and been at least partially disemboweled. So who exactly told them how the fight went down? No one other than the emperor saw the fight and lived, and I doubt he was talkative about it given that he was only able to gasp out words after malcador gave him the last of his life force.

Who says they do know?

Until Black Library have their go at the story, Bill King's version has the Emperor meet Horus alone - Sanguinius is already dead, as are many ordinary loyalist Marines in Horus' chamber. The only other witness is an Imperial Fists terminator (or whatever he's been retconned into this week) who gets killed. Rogal Dorn shows up just after the fight is over - I would think it's pretty clear from the aftermath that Horus and the Emperr fought, the Emperor won and was grievously injured in the process even if the details aren't known. Mind you, the Emperor could still communicate for a short while afterbeing enthroned, so I suppose he could have told them more of what went on.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Iirc, at some point Horus got the upper hand and was about to finish the Emperor off until someone jumped in the way and took the attack instead.
At first, it was a guardsman. Then GW decided to make him a marine then finally a custodes.

Horus had the upper hand from the beginning. As to why Bill King changed it, I would suggest three reasons -
1) he didn't know about Ollanius Pius - despite what people think, his presence at the duel was never anything important in the lore. It was a footnote to the caption for a piece of artwork used for a box set cover. It was published in a White Dwarf (reprinted in the Compendium) and never, ever mentioned anywhere else again.
2) he changed it for thematic reasons, since the story of the Heresy is the story of the Space Marines
3) he changed it for internal consistency - by that point, it had, IIRC, been established that unprotected humans couldn't be teleported; that's why only Terminators could be teleported into battle, as their armour provides enough shielding.

Personally, I go for options 1 and 2.


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BrianDavion wrote:

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I'll bet money that Ollanus is there when it goes down and I think that he'll use the anathame to breach Vengeful Spirit's shields, delivering the strike force with him.

... actually that's a REALLY good thought, it addresses one of the biggest plot holes in the HH too "... wait why'd Horus take down his shields?" the answer is "He didn't"

That's not a plot hole. the shields were dropped as a trap for the Emperor. The siege was progressing too slowly, and if Horus just let it grind on, he'd have the Space Wolves, Dark Angels (and Ultramarines ?) arriving to surround his forces and defeat them. The shields were dropped to tempt the Emperor into coming to Horus, and it almost worked.

Except that is not how the current lore describes it, even from the point of view of a neutral observer and not from a race specific point of view.

The lore in the CCG art books, and in the 40K rulebooks/codex all state the same -as did the earlier versions of the story like that found in the original Horus Heresy board game.

The shields on the ship are lowered seemingly without reason at the point where Horus is nearly triumphant. At that point the inner palace is breached - this is referenced most recently in the Emperors Legion book which is current - and the spaceports needed to allow heavier loyalist reinforcements are overrun. True, refinforcements from the White Scars/failed Imperium Secundus are enroute , but nowhere currently has them described as able to make it in time.

Horus is not stupid even if he is turned, early on in the Horus Heresy series he acknowledges he is the one holding the traitor legions together. As a trap it seems ridiculous, allowing an elite strike force to attack him in large numbers whilst the majority of his forces are at the point of victory. All they have to do is overrun the Inner Palace, break the seal on the webway portal and game over, regardless of the Emperor being dead or alive.

There is simply too many plot threads in the series for this to be so simple as a trap IMO. I also think there is potential for the outcome to be different as others have mentioned.

Still in about five years I guess we find out, maybe 4.

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

The original stories, as presented in WD 131 and WD166.

From that, the inner palace was besieged, but not yet fallen.

Now the final siege began. Through great breaches in the outer walls more and more armaments and reinforcements were brought to bear. The Warmaster himself prepared to teleport down to the surface and supervise the destruction of his former lord. Then a daemon from the Warp whispered to him the words that he had dreaded.

A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion'el Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away. It would take days to break humanity's last citadel, even with Horus leading his troops. It seemed that time had run out for the Warmaster, that his gamble had failed.

Perhaps the Visions of Heresy book changed that.

As for a "allowing an elite strike force to attack him in large numbers ", he doesn't. The vast majority of the loyalists are swallowed up in the depths of the ship. Only Sanguinius and the Emperor are allowed to reach Horus, and Rogal Dorn is kept away until Horus is killed.

beast_gts wrote:
power armour has cameras that can record what happens...

GoProius

I imagine come the HH the loyalist reinforcement fleet wi;; be the lion russ and gulliman. those three legions would pretty much be a "game, set match" scenerio and Horus would know it, not only would it shift things numerically, but the three primarchs involved are three of the best.

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, what exactly do they know about what went down? If you find a mostly dead emperor near a dead Horus and a dead Sanguinius, it's not hard to imagine what happened.

Therein lies the trick, GW has outright said things didn't go down on the vengeful spirit like we think they did. So the question is how constrained are they, is there a bunch of eye witnesses, was it the single custodes, who died when horus shredded him with his power and gave the emperor his chance to strike horus down?

Because I've been thinking about ways it could go down differently, and imagine if the emperor came upon horus and Sanguinius talking, Horus tells Sanguinius the emperor's plan was to get rid of them all after they had served their purpose, just like the thunder warriors. The emperor knowing the cat is out of the bag and not having a single feth to give tells sanginius that what horus said is true. Sanguinius flies into the black rage at the betrayal by the person he has spent his life serving, and then the emperor ends him. Taking advantage of the emperors distraction horus attacks, mortally wounding the emperor, and then the emperor ends him as well. Dorn comes in and finds the exact same scene, sanguinius and horus dead, the emperor mortally wounded and no one the wiser for what really occurred.

this is an interesting viewpoint. I'm not sure if I like it but definitely poses a fair amount of questions.

I’ve been wondering something similar. What if the reason the black rage was such a psychic backlash for the BA was because the Emperor caused it as a punishment for Sanguinious’ treachery