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BrianDavion wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 EagleArk wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
227 sounds ok. Looks like an upgraded contemptor dread, faster, more melta range, more wounds. Whats the armiger BS/WS ?

3+ degrading to 5+.

Thats not good. Contemptor dread has 2+. For 2 armiger you can almost get 3 contemptor dreads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Though I still think 3 of these things hitting on area of your opponents line will be really daunting. They'll get through eventually and get strong melta shots in at half range over the screens pretty easily.

They will never get within 15" of any viable targets, cheap screens will tie them up in melee, maybe even surround them. With only 4 base attacks and no stomps they will be neutralized.

assuming the sarmganger doesn't have cheap screens of it's own, remember they have the Imperium keyword. why are we assuming somehow that they'll be deployed alone? 2 of them and a knight warden is only 1000 points, in a 2000 point game that means 1000 points that can be thrown into guard, space marine scouts or whatever other screens you wanna use.

The enemy is going to wait to assault the Armiger when it gets close to their lines, they aren't going to run Guardsmen across the board just to shut it down... The thing has pathetic shooting so if it wants to plink away with it's mediocre gun at range all game I'm happy to let it.

RogueApiary wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 EagleArk wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
227 sounds ok. Looks like an upgraded contemptor dread, faster, more melta range, more wounds. Whats the armiger BS/WS ?

3+ degrading to 5+.

Thats not good. Contemptor dread has 2+. For 2 armiger you can almost get 3 contemptor dreads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Though I still think 3 of these things hitting on area of your opponents line will be really daunting. They'll get through eventually and get strong melta shots in at half range over the screens pretty easily.

They will never get within 15" of any viable targets, cheap screens will tie them up in melee, maybe even surround them. With only 4 base attacks and no stomps they will be neutralized.

assuming the sarmganger doesn't have cheap screens of it's own, remember they have the Imperium keyword. why are we assuming somehow that they'll be deployed alone? 2 of them and a knight warden is only 1000 points, in a 2000 point game that means 1000 points that can be thrown into guard, space marine scouts or whatever other screens you wanna use.

The enemy is going to wait to assault the Armiger when it gets close to their lines, they aren't going to run Guardsmen across the board just to shut it down... The thing has pathetic shooting so if it wants to plink away with it's mediocre gun at range all game I'm happy to let it.

Pretty much this, also the concept of having the Armiger being screened... hilarious. There is no value in that, if you wanted to do that well... get the CHEAPER Neutron Laser Onager which has a invul that works in melee. A 1000 points thrown into 2 of these plus a knight is going to be doing nothing, armigers were supposed to be the solution to IK based armies being 4-5 models, taking two of these is actively hurting you for not taking a 2nd knight. They are obviously paying a large amount for the move which is very impressive but... what is that move going to be used for? Getting into melta range? But the base dreadnought with a lascannon can do the same job (if not thematically).

I think people were looking for a cheaper unit that didn't have quite the high spec stats it has, in order to build up a larger model presence on the board. Dropping a T, S, 3 inches of movement, AND the superheavy rule with a base 60 point drop would make these much better at their role of being mini-knights while keeping their identity.

Are we forgetting that 8th edition armies are made from their Strategems?

This thing with its "underwhelming" profile can become a beast if you add a 3+ invul, or a move twice and shoot move. Cmon, think outside the box.

It falls within the points range I was expecting, whether its good or not I'm not really that concerned, as the one list I've made where I'm planning to use them is more for an Armies on Parade Display board.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Are we forgetting that 8th edition armies are made from their Strategems?

This thing with its "underwhelming" profile can become a beast if you add a 3+ invul, or a move twice and shoot move. Cmon, think outside the box.

Shh! I want to drop the price on ebay!

All kidding aside that is a good point, but it should still get some reasonable adjustments.

It doesn't sound too bad for it's points, it was always going to cost more than a tank as a LOW with an invulnerable save.
You have a faster speed and greater threat range than a dreadnaught with a melta.
But yes untill the meta changes away from anti tank weapon spam knights and tanks aren't going to be a great choice.

I’m just looking forward to kitbashing them in new and interesting ways. As to battle field roles, these guys are Tank Hunters, not anti-Infantry skirmishers. Their job is to spear tanks while the Warden mows the lawn, or to backup an Errant versus something big. They definitely aren’t intended to dance with trash Infantry. At least, not this variant. The current Arimager is a mini-Errant, we still have yet to see the mini-Pallie, mini-Warden, etc..

SJ

Ice_can wrote:
It doesn't sound too bad for it's points, it was always going to cost more than a tank as a LOW with an invulnerable save.
You have a faster speed and greater threat range than a dreadnaught with a melta.
But yes untill the meta changes away from anti tank weapon spam knights and tanks aren't going to be a great choice.

I honestly cannot see what this has that a Dunecrawler doesn't for 100 points less.

 Fafnir wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
It doesn't sound too bad for it's points, it was always going to cost more than a tank as a LOW with an invulnerable save.
You have a faster speed and greater threat range than a dreadnaught with a melta.
But yes untill the meta changes away from anti tank weapon spam knights and tanks aren't going to be a great choice.

I honestly cannot see what this has that a Dunecrawler doesn't for 100 points less.

I don't have to run a HQ and a unit of troops to run a armanger and keep my chapter tactics? whereas I do with a dunecralwer?

That IS an advantage worth considering, maybe not for an admech army, but If I want anti-tank for say custodes, I can JUST take the Armiger and not worry about losing CPs etc. maybe not a signfcigent one but I can certainly see that for a IoM player being willing to pay a 50 point premium

BrianDavion wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
It doesn't sound too bad for it's points, it was always going to cost more than a tank as a LOW with an invulnerable save.
You have a faster speed and greater threat range than a dreadnaught with a melta.
But yes untill the meta changes away from anti tank weapon spam knights and tanks aren't going to be a great choice.

I honestly cannot see what this has that a Dunecrawler doesn't for 100 points less.

I don't have to run a HQ and a unit of troops to run a armanger and keep my chapter tactics? whereas I do with a dunecralwer?

That IS an advantage worth considering, maybe not for an admech army, but If I want anti-tank for say custodes, I can JUST take the Armiger and not worry about losing CPs etc. maybe not a signfcigent one but I can certainly see that for a IoM player being willing to pay a 50 point premium

Take a Vanguard detachment, make it the Imperium keyword. Slap a 30 point IG HQ or 55 point Inquisitor in there put 3 Onagers in there. Three times the anti-tank, 50% more range, minimum 3 damage guaranteed per failed save.

EDIT: Bonus it has better anti horde as well with the Cognis heavy stubbers. You also get one CP with this

Hell, slap on a techpriest for 47 points instead of the IG commander, and you've got Stygies VIII for that sick -1 to hit and access to Admech stratagems.

I was super worried I was going to have to re-write my GT list because of a sudden influx of new armies using werid mini knights with silly rules.

I'm not worried anymore. When it takes a 227pt unit 2 - 3 turns just to get through ten guardsmen, I'm no longer bothered by it.

... I already own knight (4 classic chassis, one convertible to a megaera, and one FW Acheron). As someone else said: why should I bring a couple of Armiger instead of another Knight?

I mean, literally, what the have to offer? +2" of movement???? They don't even get more attack, since a knight can triple its own or do 6 wound against bigger threat...

Bleah. At least I will same the money.
But God knows how much IK need some love...p

What I want to know is what insane person looked at a knight list and said "you know what these puppies need, a unit with anti tank weapons to back it up!"

Knights have an awful time with hordes right now. This thing with something like a punisher cannon, assault cannons, or heck, even some sort of torrent style flamer like what the hellhound has, and these would fill a needed niche, be interesting, AND fill a lore friendly role. These guys are the serfs and servants. Their job should be clearing chaff and lesser opponents so their masters can gain the most glory fighting the biggest/baddest enemies on the battlefield. Why are they being sent ahead to kill high value targets? Isn't that what the knights should be doing?

Hopefully later on the Armigers are fleshed out with different load-outs.

If they ever do get around to releasing a stand-alone Knight codex, I'm sure this is something they would visit and release several different variants for all classes.

Go one step further, and release something bigger than an Imperial Knight - Plastic Warhound anyone? (one can dream)

i hope that there's a plasma or mini avenger cannon loadout. or maybe an all dakka version w missle/rocket pod. I don't care how they're setup since I'm magnetizing them anyway.

I am gonna try to see what the mileage will be for forgebane warglaive.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What I want to know is what insane person looked at a knight list and said "you know what these puppies need, a unit with anti tank weapons to back it up!"

Knights have an awful time with hordes right now. This thing with something like a punisher cannon, assault cannons, or heck, even some sort of torrent style flamer like what the hellhound has, and these would fill a needed niche, be interesting, AND fill a lore friendly role. These guys are the serfs and servants. Their job should be clearing chaff and lesser opponents so their masters can gain the most glory fighting the biggest/baddest enemies on the battlefield. Why are they being sent ahead to kill high value targets? Isn't that what the knights should be doing?

THANK YOU! And yes that is what they are supposed to be doing, Knights exist for the hunt.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What I want to know is what insane person looked at a knight list and said "you know what these puppies need, a unit with anti tank weapons to back it up!"

Shower thought today: This thing is the perfect example of the... unusual way GW approach creating new units. The model always comes first*

Someone designs a model that looks cool - its a mini knight rocking... a THERMAL LANCE! Wowee zowee!
They mock it up and hand it over to the rules team and say "do some rules for THAT bad boy!"

At which point the rules team might think WTF do Knights or Ad Mech need to have more of this? But as I understand it they don't get to say "hey back to the drawing board with this one" they just have to do the rules.

I also think there will be other variants following along soon.


* a good rule for life in general

I think they have done an excellent job with the Armiger personally;

1) They look cool.
2) They aren't horribly overpowered.

That's a win for both Knight players and opponents.

It makes thematic sense to me that these Armigers are equipped with anti-tank weaponry as normal weaponry has little effect on Necrons. They will probably get more options when the full kit comes out.

Also just going by the way GW has been talking they seam to play knights totally different from dakka members.
They shoot the small stuff with the big knights and use the armagiers for tank hunting. D3 shots plus 2d6 pick the highest at 15 inches should have a very solid chance of one shoting most tanks in the game. Similarly its not a slouch against vehicals in close combat. This seams to come back to players in the wild and GW playing the army very differently.

Ice_can wrote:
Also just going by the way GW has been talking they seam to play knights totally different from dakka members.
They shoot the small stuff with the big knights and use the armagiers for tank hunting. D3 shots plus 2d6 pick the highest at 15 inches should have a very solid chance of one shoting most tanks in the game. Similarly its not a slouch against vehicals in close combat. This seams to come back to players in the wild and GW playing the army very differently.

please do the math. It is in no way, shape or form a 'very solid chance' of one shotting any tank.

we're talking 10% chance to do 10 wounds within 15" without modifiers.
average wounds are 4 to 5.
1 in 3 it not even doing a single wound.

D3 shots is really bad.

Ice_can wrote:
Also just going by the way GW has been talking they seam to play knights totally different from dakka members.
They shoot the small stuff with the big knights and use the armagiers for tank hunting. D3 shots plus 2d6 pick the highest at 15 inches should have a very solid chance of one shoting most tanks in the game. Similarly its not a slouch against vehicals in close combat. This seams to come back to players in the wild and GW playing the army very differently.

No, no it isn't. Besides we already know that GW rule writers are mostly hacks who don't actually enjoy most armies and as such don't think their fluff/crunch through.

 Quickjager wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What I want to know is what insane person looked at a knight list and said "you know what these puppies need, a unit with anti tank weapons to back it up!"

Knights have an awful time with hordes right now. This thing with something like a punisher cannon, assault cannons, or heck, even some sort of torrent style flamer like what the hellhound has, and these would fill a needed niche, be interesting, AND fill a lore friendly role. These guys are the serfs and servants. Their job should be clearing chaff and lesser opponents so their masters can gain the most glory fighting the biggest/baddest enemies on the battlefield. Why are they being sent ahead to kill high value targets? Isn't that what the knights should be doing?

THANK YOU! And yes that is what they are supposed to be doing, Knights exist for the hunt.

Yeah, that's why we have some Houses that decide who's in charge based on how many piddly Beastmen they kill while piloting a giant mech?

Honestly, I think people need to understand that:
A) The Armiger Warglaive is a specific loadout. There's no real debate about that at this point. The fact that the guns are on their own specific sprue should tell you this.
B) Armigers are an interesting concept if one looks at the origin of the word. It's Latin for "arms-bearer" and historically referred to an esquire(not a squire). These people had their own unique heraldic devices and were "above a gentleman but below a knight".

So these aren't just serfs and servants. These are individuals who have won the right to pilot an Armiger "suit" of armour. Heck, one just has to read the lore that GW themselves put out:

Armigers hearken back to an ancient martial tradition – that of a mounted lord hunting with his loyal bondsmen. While the prey may have gotten deadlier, and the hunt fiercer, the principle is the same, with pairs of Armigers guarding the flanks of their larger kin and ranging ahead to slay any potential threats to their lord.
To pilot an Armiger is an honour, albeit one much less prestigious than piloting a fully fledged Knight. For this reason, Armiger pilots are drawn from the lesser nobility of a Knight world, from distant cousins of the ruling House to commoners and lowborn uplifted by virtue of their exceptional talent for war.

So the Warglaive, at least, is intended to be able to tackle tougher fare so that they can protect the Knights themselves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

So the Warglaive, at least, is intended to be able to tackle tougher fare so that they can protect the Knights themselves.

Ok, they are supposed to protect the knight, with meltas. So their intended targets are vehicles. How are they protecting a knight from enemy 48" range lascannons with their 30" range meltas ?

I got a 10% chnace of 15 wounds on a T7 3+ save to me thats a solid chnace its not op its not too low a probability, but not something I would count on. It sounds like your wanting something horrifically OP if your wanting more than that and that before it charges and starts cutting chuncks out of things with its close combat attacks.
Ok it can't leap over infantry or fall back and blast away after being charged but it has a designed role, maybe not one you thing you need but I can see what they are trying to build it for, its fast given it can advance and still shoot its weapons its going to be much more likely to be able to claim cover and its designed to pick on isolated tanks and destroy them. You missing out a lot by not considering its close combat stats aswell. Sure its not going to wade through ork boy's at 20 a turn but feed it russes and other IG tanks and it will make ita points back fairly quick.

Ice_can wrote:
I got a 10% chnace of 15 wounds on a T7 3+ save to me thats a solid chnace its not op its not too low a probability, but not something I would count on. It sounds like your wanting something horrifically OP if your wanting more than that and that before it charges and starts cutting chuncks out of things with its close combat attacks.
Ok it can't leap over infantry or fall back and blast away after being charged but it has a designed role, maybe not one you thing you need but I can see what they are trying to build it for, its fast given it can advance and still shoot its weapons its going to be much more likely to be able to claim cover and its designed to pick on isolated tanks and destroy them. You missing out a lot by not considering its close combat stats aswell. Sure its not going to wade through ork boy's at 20 a turn but feed it russes and other IG tanks and it will make ita points back fairly quick.

15 damage needs 3 wounds.
1/3 chance to get 3 shots.
(4/6)*(4/6)*(4/6) to get 3 hits.
Your already at a 10% chance before counting all 3 wounding and rolling above average on damage (average of 2d6 pick highest being ~4.5)

I think your math is off.

 p5freak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So the Warglaive, at least, is intended to be able to tackle tougher fare so that they can protect the Knights themselves.

Ok, they are supposed to protect the knight, with meltas. So their intended targets are vehicles. How are they protecting a knight from enemy 48" range lascannons with their 30" range meltas ?

"Melta" no longer is specific to combating vehicles.

It has a weapon that lets it protect the Knight from high T gun platforms: tanks, monsters, and some fortifications.

And they're "protecting a knight from 48" range lascannons" by Advancing with their 14" move. On a 4? The Armiger has gotten within range on the target--on a 5 or 6, it's gotten closer than it needed to be to reach out and tag the target.

While this is somewhat off topic for this thread, I have been very much in favor of GW turning over the rules part of the business to a company who has had more gaming experience and less modeling experience (like Fantasy Flight or WizKids). Unfortunately, that will never happen, but I just thin that FF or WizKids could write a more balanced ruleset for 40K and AoS (though AoS seems pretty solid right now, IMHO). Once FF or WizKids writes the rules, slap the GW label on it and sell it. While they wouldn't make as much money off indices, codices, dataslates, etc. this way, they'd still make more than enough... and people would enjoy a better gaming system.

SG

 Kanluwen wrote:

"Melta" no longer is specific to combating vehicles.

So, they are going to kill infantry with their melta ? D3 shots are 2 shots on average, they score 1 hit, and 1 infantry model dies. Very impressive

 Kanluwen wrote:

It has a weapon that lets it protect the Knight from high T gun platforms: tanks, monsters, and some fortifications.

And they're "protecting a knight from 48" range lascannons" by Advancing with their 14" move. On a 4? The Armiger has gotten within range on the target--on a 5 or 6, it's gotten closer than it needed to be to reach out and tag the target.

They hit on 4s after advancing. Thats 1 hit from 2 shots, doing 4 damage, if you manage to wound, and your target has no invuln sv. If they are within 15" from their high T gun platform targets its likely that they will get tied up in melee with enemy chaff.

 ServiceGames wrote:
While this is somewhat off topic for this thread, I have been very much in favor of GW turning over the rules part of the business to a company who has had more gaming experience and less modeling experience (like Fantasy Flight or WizKids). Unfortunately, that will never happen, but I just thin that FF or WizKids could write a more balanced ruleset for 40K and AoS (though AoS seems pretty solid right now, IMHO). Once FF or WizKids writes the rules, slap the GW label on it and sell it. While they wouldn't make as much money off indices, codices, dataslates, etc. this way, they'd still make more than enough... and people would enjoy a better gaming system.

SG

Bolded shows why they will not do that.