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I don’t want to see a Magic card proxied as a Fire Raptor... had an opponent try to pull that one on me and tell me I was a jerk because I said "No way."
Maybe the real discussion is how do people react when you tell them you don't like their proxy.
Had an opponent bring an Imperial Guard tank column that was proxied from German war tanks. Instead of Leman Russes, he was running PKW mk I's. Not IIIs, Is. Roughly a third of the size, the guns were about 1/16th of an inch in diameter. You couldn't tell one from the other and they fit entirely behind LOS blocking terrain.
He had a breakdown when I told him no, made up stories about how his models were stolen - after telling me he would never buy the actual GW models. Was afraid he was going to cry.
Another time, had an opponent try to use Optimus Prime as a proxy for an Imperial Knight. This was not the original, die-cast metal version, it was some beefed-up plastic thing that didn't even transform into a vehicle. I told him to remove that plastic crap off my table and refused to play a scaled-down list because he had the nerve to do that. His was astounded over my reaction and seemed hurt that I didn't think the choice was cool.
See, I might be O.K. with Optimus, but I wouldn't try it myself. The German tanks I'd let him use but tell him we have to measure as if they were larger (basically NOVA's rules on modeling for advantage).
As for where I come down on this, I love conversions. I love making them, I love seeing them, I want to encourage them. They're always welcome.
Proxies are fine for casual settings and practice. Go nuts. Same with counts-as.
For myself, like I said, I use conversions sometimes. I'm not a great painter but I'm a half-creative modeler. That said, I've never met an opponent yet who noticed the difference between plasma/melta on infantry (or didn't care) nor can I for the most part. Using primarily Grey Knights (and now Custodes), people don't even know what our guns look like ANYWAY to tell the difference.
From what I see at tournaments, most people care more about melee weapons. Axes need to be axes, swords are swords, but guns are whatever. It's a gun.
I'm building a bunch of Metal Slug tank model kits, which I'm going to be converting into Chimera Chassis tanks (Hellhounds, mantacors, hydras, salamanders, ect), and using the left over bits to scratch build tauroxi.
1. Proxy, counts as, or conversion: What would they be? (They're about the same size as a chimera. A bit smaller in land area, but a bit taller too. They'll have the appropriate weapons, and be easy to tell.)
2. Would they be acceptable in game at your table?
As to the opening post, I'll proxy within limits. I've had games where my opponent's squads were followed by a sticky note saying what the special weapons were, and what the sarge had. (Squad A: All SW are plasma guns for example). But that only flies for trying out an army (or if you forgot something). Eventually I'm going to tell you to actually buy appropriate models.
Really depends what you want out of the hobby. I think proxying within reason is fine, but if you're playing against someone who consistently uses green army men and lego trucks well it breaks the hobby immersion for me
May as well play with coloured stones at that point.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
Proxy, "counts as" - I'm not entirely sure what the difference is.
Anyway, the point of 40k to me is to pretend to fight battles in the 40k setting. Having "that model with the plasma gun is actually armed with a meltagun" spoils that, so I don't do it (if all I've got is a model with a meltagun, then that's what I use - clearly the quatermaster's been slacking), and it makes me less likely to play against someone else who does it. Similarly with 40k armies that look like Star Wars Stormtroopers, or some other recognisable non-40k thing. White Space Marines led by a Librarian in black? OK, fair enough. Giving them actual Stormtrooper helmets, no thanks.
I don't care one way or the other if you're doing it to save money. There's nothing wrong with that if you just want to play the game, and there's no moral advantage from spending more than you need to. I used to have an Imperial Guard platoon, back when I was a callow youth, made from cheap Bluebird Toys pre-painted sci-fi toy soldiers, which cost about 15p each. Looked gak, but I had an entire platoon for a tenner. Its not something I'm interested in doing now, but if you want to go that way, fair play to you.
Grimtuff wrote: InB4 everyone confuses proxies with "counts-as" and the 5-6 page arguments that will ensue...
That's a very good point Grimtuff. Just as you foretold...
Guys, again in the context of wargaming proxy=/=counts as.
Someone using a coke bottle as a Carnifex is not the same as someone using a Glottkin as a Soul Grinder for example. The former is (hopefully) a one off due to not having the models etc. The latter is a permanent change for aesthetic choices or just rule of cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 09:23:05
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Both are examples of using something other than the "proper" model. The meaning of "proxy" covers both examples, and the phrase "this Irn Bru can counts as a Dreadnought " is just as valid as "this Penitent Engine counts as a Dreadnought".
AndrewGPaul wrote: Both are examples of using something other than the "proper" model. The meaning of "proxy" covers both examples, and the phrase "this Irn Bru can counts as a Dreadnought " is just as valid as "this Penitent Engine counts as a Dreadnought".
No it does not in the context of this hobby. I've already explained that. Please stop being so obtuse, this discussion has happened so many times over the years I fail to see how it has not sunk in.
One is a permanent sub that fits with the flavour of the army.
One is a temporary sub that is done due to wanting to try something out, lack of funds, whatever. Etc.
These are not the same. What is so difficult to understand about this?
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Actually the definition of proxy itself does not fit into wargaming, so it's a colloquialism which can mean various things to various people. So you're wrong as well. There is not a dictionary defined definition of "proxying" when it comes to wargaming.
privateer4hire wrote: I'd be curious to know if those who refuse to allow opponents to proxy consistently have their models all painted and based.
Yep. I refuse to play with unfinished models.
I like the game part.
Masochist.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Both are examples of using something other than the "proper" model. The meaning of "proxy" covers both examples, and the phrase "this Irn Bru can counts as a Dreadnought " is just as valid as "this Penitent Engine counts as a Dreadnought".
No it does not in the context of this hobby. I've already explained that. Please stop being so obtuse, this discussion has happened so many times over the years I fail to see how it has not sunk in.
One is a permanent sub that fits with the flavour of the army.
One is a temporary sub that is done due to wanting to try something out, lack of funds, whatever. Etc.
These are not the same. What is so difficult to understand about this?
There are two different examples here: Penitent engine as dreadnought is one 40k model being used as another. Glottkin as a soulgrinder is a non-40k model being used as a 40k model.
I'd be happy with the Glottkin example (and I'd be a real pedant not to), because I'm not going to confuse it for something else. The penitent engine would need to be converted somewhat, or I would assume it's being fielded as a penitent engine.
I use a Verminlord as a Keeper of Secrets, for a real example. Or, as I think of it, it IS a verminlord, but there are no rules for that, so I use the closest thing to it in the rules.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/20 13:27:59
AndrewGPaul wrote: Both are examples of using something other than the "proper" model. The meaning of "proxy" covers both examples, and the phrase "this Irn Bru can counts as a Dreadnought " is just as valid as "this Penitent Engine counts as a Dreadnought".
No it does not in the context of this hobby. I've already explained that. Please stop being so obtuse, this discussion has happened so many times over the years I fail to see how it has not sunk in.
One is a permanent sub that fits with the flavour of the army.
One is a temporary sub that is done due to wanting to try something out, lack of funds, whatever. Etc.
These are not the same. What is so difficult to understand about this?
I've been wargaming since 1990, and this is the first time I've encountered such a separation of the terminology, so it's not anything to do with the context of my hobby. Must be an internet thing. Thank you for the explanation, although the personal insult was unnecessary. I'll forgo hitting the yellow button this time.
Everyone around here seems to be using the word proxy for both "this beer bottle is Guilliman" and "these melta guns are plasma guns". One is less accepted than the other though.
In my opinion conversions are different, but there has to be some actual conversion work done. If you're just using one model as another you're proxying.
The way I see it the most important factor is why you're proxying. Trying out how a unit works before you buy it? Fine. Proxying so we can play despite your collection not being large enough yet? Fine. You're too cheap to buy actual models? Not fine. You don't like the official model? Fine, but make the effort to have it look like what it's supposed to be. Convert, and don't be lazy about it. If you want to be lazy, buy the official model.
I am planning to use the Morathi model as a Daemon Prince (since it's the only Daemon unit of Slaanesh with wings. I'd love her to be a Greater Daemon, but I digress).
Elbows wrote: There is no separation of the terminology, Grimtuff is just making stuff up to be upset about, ignore him.
I suggest you actually do a search on this topic and the numerous times it has come up; as then you'll see I'm not talking out my backside. How utterly thick skulled do you have to be to see that this
Spoiler:
My COUNTS AS Typhus. A permanent change.
Is not the same as this
A PROXY for some Nids. Used as a temporary placeholder
"Counts As" has been a tool for gamers for the longest while to make things more in theme with their armies. "Proxy" is a loaded word in this hobby and comes with connotations of lazy gamers with half built armies and conjours up images like this-
The two are not synonyms in this hobby. I frankly find it insulting that someone such as yourself with your own counts-as Rhinos etc. would be so utterly ignorant on a topic like this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 16:54:03
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
there are 2 times I personally find proxying to be fine.
1. If you like another company model and would like to use it. As long as it has the same base and roughly the same dimensions there shouldn't be an issue as long as its clear what it represents.
2. You would like to test a model before you buy it or try some different loadout in a friendly game. Simply make it clear and don't abuse this too much. Most people don't mind you trying something out but don't be the guy whose x unit in now y unit in every game because y is the flavor of the week and x will be turning into z for 2 months after z gets a point reduction.
Cream Tea wrote: Everyone around here seems to be using the word proxy for both "this beer bottle is Guilliman" and "these melta guns are plasma guns". One is less accepted than the other though.
In my opinion conversions are different, but there has to be some actual conversion work done. If you're just using one model as another you're proxying.
The way I see it the most important factor is why you're proxying. ...You're too cheap to buy actual models? Not fine.
At what point do we draw the line? Getting stuff at a discount rather than RRP is OK, but then...? If someone wants to use an alternative because it's cheaper, that's a perfectly reasonable choice as far as I'm concerned. I'll probably not want to play against that army because the setting and visuals are important to me, but if I were just interested in a game, then go for it.
Cream Tea wrote: The way I see it the most important factor is why you're proxying. ...You're too cheap to buy actual models? Not fine.
At what point do we draw the line? Getting stuff at a discount rather than RRP is OK, but then...? If someone wants to use an alternative because it's cheaper, that's a perfectly reasonable choice as far as I'm concerned. I'll probably not want to play against that army because the setting and visuals are important to me, but if I were just interested in a game, then go for it.
I'm not saying you necessarily have to buy GW models, and I'm fine with the price being one reason you don't want to. However, I kind of expect you to actually make the effort to make your army "look 40k", your models to look a bit like what they're meant to represent, and if your substitute models look worse than GW's I can't help but question your intentions. In my experience, it's often quite easy to tell if someone is just* being cheap.
*I actually think it's fine to be cheap, as long as you go the extra mile. I've seen scratch-built plasticard tanks that look awesome, and those are more than fine in my eyes. Using a milk carton as a land raider does not look awesome unless you put in some serious work on it.
I'm really not an extremist though, and will probably accept quite a few things depending on the circumstances.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
A proxy is something that wholly takes its place and is largely viewed as a one-off. Meanwhile, i have third party models that I treat as counts-as on a permanent basis because they're cooler than GW miniatures.
This is a hobby about aesthetics, so that definitely matters.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I think its first important to realise that Warhammer and 40K have never been WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) games in the perfect sense.
Unit type and primary weapons are modelled and are often required by WYSIWYG; but the various upgrade choices are rarely enforced to be modelled even when they are on the sprue (not all are) and the majority of gamers treat them as decoration rather than faithful icons.
This is for several reasons
a) The details are tiny and easily missed or confused. Eg Marines have upgrades which are seals or such; however many marine model hve the on the model as a detail anyway. Granades, sights on weapons, most tyranid upgrades -etc... these are all nearly invisible or otherwise hard to pick out from general model detailing.
b) Cost and time. Consider the humble Tyranid Gaunt, which has 3 upgrades. Toxin Sacs (TS), Andrenal Glands (AG) and Extended Carapace (EC).
That makes for the following possible combinations
No upgrades, EC, TS, AG, ECTS, ECAG, TSAG, TSAGEC.
That's 8 possible choices for different gaunt upgrades per weapon choice possible and a gaunt group might have up to 30 models in it. Even if you discount several choice as tactically inferior its still a huge number of models to faithfully buy, build and paint just to allow the player to swap one or two +1 modifers around for the models. Ergo for the majority of people its just not viable for them to approach the game this way. Especially when at least two of those upgrades almost vanish onto hte model (TS and EC) and thus most players won't even spot them.
c) Codex edition changes; changing not only the upgrades, the upgrade costs but also the stats and the meta and thus what is legal and viable.
3) So already the majority of gamers are already using models which are not "perfect" and which rely upon the written army list and the distinctiveness of groups of models on the table to tell them apart from each other.
So the game is rarely a perfect form of WYSIWYG. As a result proxies can be easily allowed and there's a range of factors to consider
1) Is it at a GW store. If so then majority of the model must be GW brand, be it converted or not. Smaller details you will likely get away with and there will b some variation from different managers and stores in how they interpret and enforce the rules.
2) Is it a GW tournament - going to be the same as the store and likely a bit stricter.
3) Independent events are going to be less strict, though tournaments might again be stricter .
4) WHY Proxy
a) You're unable to afford new models - many gamers will accept this as a reason (outside of formal events). Not everyone has the same disposable income and using the same 5 models every game is dull to play as and play against.
b) Testing out new units before purchase. Much the same as point 1; most people understand this and will accept it for some matches.
c) Unable to buy the models - less of an issue now as GW is cleaning up their codex; but many a gamer has used a proxy or converted model to represent things not officially released by GW.
So in general if its a good reason many people will accept it.
5) Quality
a) Rule of Cool is a factor. If your proxy looks great its going to have more chance being accepted than if it looks rubbishy. The game has a visual component and whilst the requirements for that vary from gamer to gamer; the general view is that most prefer to see nicely made models on the table
b) Modelling for advantage - yeah this is often more a horror story, and many of those are from most gamers early days when they were younger and warhammer is just "pew pew you're dead" with dice. This is where someone tries to abuse the model dimensions in their proxy for game advantage - most will not accept or enjoy this type of proxy behaviour (even some cool conversions might come a foul of this one)
6) Confusion. If all your models look the same and they are different units players won't like this. Ideally you want to be able to glance at the table and tell which unit is which and (ideally) which is in which squad on the table (esp for armies with a lot of units where its easier to mix up who is in which group when moving them close together).
So if you're trying to use a whole load of near identical proxies for very different models then people won't like this. Again if its a once in a while test of new things people might well accept, but in general for you every day game you its not going to be something most will be happy to accept.
In the end we all like to game and many(most) aspire to have a good quality army to play with and against. The line on what people accept wavers from person to person and there are always those at the extreme (in this case those who won't play against anything that isn't a fully painted and based official GW army and those happy to play against copper coins). Plus the frequency and situation (casual tournament; store or indie or club) can well also influence how accepted a proxy is.
Just trying to understand here. So if someone makes a beer bottle a PERMANENT addition to their army as Typhus, that's a proxy. If someone uses a Nurgle Terminator as Typhus TEMPORARILY, that's counts-as, right? Is there any beneficial reason we need to separate counts-as from proxy? How long can a beer bottle be used as Typhus and still be considered temporary? Hours? Years?
This is interesting to me as not only are the intent and level of perceived effort factors (both based on assumptive judgment), but also the length of time a proxy is intended to be used is important to your opponent's decision on whether they let you use it or not?
If you want to use a beer bottle as Typhus, I'll let you. I have no fears of a beer bottle army taking over as the latest evil, game-destroying craze at my local GW
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/21 00:44:29
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