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 Niiai wrote:
How many of the primarchs are infantry? If they are infantry the sky hooks become 5+ for mortal wounds. Could be good vs must die primarchs.

How is the stratagem worded? Movement phase only? How are red strife fall back vs transport worded, can you do that with helions?

None of the primarchs are infantry.

Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.

Hmm alright, i suppose wracks can still serve a purpose though? Figured 10 of them for 90 should be a cheap decently durable screen against first turn charge armies (like opposing dark eldar).


Oh yeah, will you still be able to chooce chapter approved warlord traits? I figured it could be nice to combine a Cult of Red Grief Succubus with the relic glaive with exploding hits on 6's

Just a quick question, do ALL of you play tournaments and only tournaments ? In my local meta there's no such thing as a "Guard screen", only one person plays Guard, and not always. It feels like the AdMech tactica where everyone thinks on tournament level and dismiss everything that isn't "downright OP" as "trash", and it's really tedious reading a tactica in these conditions. Not saying you guys were like that but just see the broad picture and don't dismiss possibilities too quickly please, thanks !

Besides I never had trouble with a screen of guardsmen, personally I just shoot them and they die, then die some more to morale. Every list should have some anti-horde, and luckily Drukharis looks full of options for that role.

The trouble I can see me having is having half of my force on the table at deployment. It will depend on my opponent's list though, a short ranged or melee army shouldn't make me put my Raiders in deepstrike, but playing against Dark Angels should prove more dangerous.

What match-ups do you think benefit us ? From the top of my head I can see Death Guard being easier to dominate, as their Toughness shenanigans and poor ranged options won't help them against mass poisoned attacks. We're also so fast that board control should be cake.

 Aaranis wrote:
Just a quick question, do ALL of you play tournaments and only tournaments ? In my local meta there's no such thing as a "Guard screen", only one person plays Guard, and not always. It feels like the AdMech tactica where everyone thinks on tournament level and dismiss everything that isn't "downright OP" as "trash", and it's really tedious reading a tactica in these conditions. Not saying you guys were like that but just see the broad picture and don't dismiss possibilities too quickly please, thanks !

Besides I never had trouble with a screen of guardsmen, personally I just shoot them and they die, then die some more to morale. Every list should have some anti-horde, and luckily Drukharis looks full of options for that role.

The trouble I can see me having is having half of my force on the table at deployment. It will depend on my opponent's list though, a short ranged or melee army shouldn't make me put my Raiders in deepstrike, but playing against Dark Angels should prove more dangerous.

What match-ups do you think benefit us ? From the top of my head I can see Death Guard being easier to dominate, as their Toughness shenanigans and poor ranged options won't help them against mass poisoned attacks. We're also so fast that board control should be cake.

I think space marine lists will be troublesome, they have extremely high accuracy and can brings lots of anti tank and plasma guns, which could be devestating.

The intelligent use of alpha strike and screening units isn't something unique to tournament play - it's just smart play. If your local meta doesn't make use of screens on a regular basis that probably says more about the seriousness of the people you play with. I'm not saying they're bad players, but if you only play with a small set of opponents you often aren't forced to adapt to new strategies.I agree that some posters here take the tournament meta thing too far, but that doesn't obviate the general findings about what is efficient and effective in 8th edition.

I agree about speed and board control btw, at least against lower model count armies. Against hordes speed can be trumped by model count and spacing. Deep striking bigger cult units could be cool too if you use venoms to eat overwatch.

My meta is harsh but in different ways, it's just people don't make Soups that much. I rarely encounter a solid screen past turn one simply because there's almost only Guard that can do that well with their cheap troops. Other armies in my meta like DA, BA, Death Guard or T'au can't just afford to let their troops hang around their artillery doing nothing, they're too costly. What happens generally is that they deploy smartly and forbid deep strikes in key locations, and after one round most of the time it's already chaos everywhere so no big deal to move around at this time.

I'm open to new ideas and strategies but yes, I hardly ever meet the tournament spam lists because I don't enjoy playing this with my poor AdMech. We have some brilliant players but their lists are unbeatable with my current army so that's that.

Just wanted to point out that when a new player may walk by a thread where half the people call their favourite units trash he may get the wrong idea of the game, seeing as his local meta may be totally different from the top 10 tournaments lists that he'll never ever see on table. I'm not saying we have to forget common sense neither

Dionysodorus wrote:
Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.

They also got +1 wound

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.

They also got +1 wound

Really, they have 4 wounds now?

 Niiai wrote:
How many of the primarchs are infantry? If they are infantry the sky hooks become 5+ for mortal wounds. Could be good vs must die primarchs.

How is the stratagem worded? Movement phase only? How are red strife fall back vs transport worded, can you do that with helions?

Not sure if hellions will be allowed to ride since they FAQ'd that a while back, and primarchs are all monsters so it would require 6's but that said, hellions will MURDER characters that are infantry.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Just going to AP-2 doesn't seem like a huge buff to Grots. They're still more vulnerable than bolter Marines to just regular S4 AP0 attacks unless they have the 4++ Coven, and even then they're not that much more durable. And their CC attacks aren't so impressive that you feel good paying 40 points for 5 of them when you only have a 50/50 chance of making the charge after deep striking and you have to pay CP to deep strike in the first place. Also you're probably charging a GEQ screen.

They also got +1 wound

Really, they have 4 wounds now?

Index 3, codex 4, according to the video "They have wounds 4 attacks" he is reading it off the codex. (just so you know its not me saying it is all)

That certainly would make them much more worthwhile. Then they're paying the same as Wracks per wound and putting out more damage vs basically everything. Ordinarily 4 wounds would just mean you get plasma'd to death but their FNP (and mandatory 4++ Coven) helps a lot to reduce its efficiency.

Means 3D weapons wont kill them in 1 shot too

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Means 3D weapons wont kill them in 1 shot too

That is where that 4++ would be good. Just shooting at them instead of boats would be very risky.

Hope he didnt missread since they have 4 attacks, but one extra wound/ap for just 1 extra ppm would be incredible, putting 4 of them in a raider + haemonculus/archon would be a wicked nasty combo.

Has anyone had some thoughts on a foot-deldar build?

Its largely theoretical for now - but I think a kabalite carpet might not be the madness its been for years. (I realise a lot of people really don't want to play "horde/gunline Dark eldar", but just go with it.)

Kabalite shooting MEQ,
1*2/3(rerolling 1s from Archon),*1/2*1/3*13/6=28% return on points.
So at rapid fire range that's 56% return on points. Which is nasty. Even better with the re-roll 1s to wound relic.

Its worse against guard - you get 17/34% efficiency there, which isn't perhaps top tier - but its far from terrible. Shredders might theoretically help for the first time ever - but I still probably wouldn't take them unless you were going Obsidian Rose for the extra range.

Meanwhile a blaster vs a rhino is getting
(2/3+rerolling1s)*2/3*3.5*10/23=79% return on points.

Shooting 6 point T3/5+/6+++ models isn't hugely efficient and if MSU morale is irrelevant.

Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?

 ThePie wrote:
Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?

Depends what you are doing, if you are DSing and attempting to charge while using stratagems, then 20man, if you just want cheap melee units then raiders and 10mans

 ThePie wrote:
Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?

I would not deepstrike them. The ods are heavaly against you, and you often charge chaff.

Nids have +1 to charge, deep strike and re-roll to charge. None play them like that because it is bad. And a re-roll 8 charge is muuuuch easier then 9 reroll.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 ThePie wrote:
Do people think its better to run a 20 wych unit on foot or 10 in a raider, and then deepstriking the raider for guaranteed turn 2 charge and tie up something with shardnet?

Depends what you are doing, if you are DSing and attempting to charge while using stratagems, then 20man, if you just want cheap melee units then raiders and 10mans

Hmm, while i suppose it would be nice to have the option depending on which opponent you are facing, i figured its generally wiser to deepstrike your raiders/ravagers instead to protect them against alpha strikes.

I do wanna run wyches to get some variety in the army, just trying to squeeze out how to run them as effeciently as possible.

Tyel wrote:
Has anyone had some thoughts on a foot-deldar build?

Yeah, I don't think it's crazy. Obviously your worst case is against T3 but Warriors would only need to cost 5 points to give Infantry an even fight. They're actually quite competitive with Infantry vs T4, and that's saying something. They'll beat equal points in Fire Warriors in a shootout if both are getting the same number of shots each.

Obviously you're missing FRFSRF, but as you note you have pretty good access to various bonuses. You're either Poisoned Tongue for wound re-rolls or you have that wound relic, and with that and Archons you're re-rolling hits and wounds of 1 on everything for a 36% damage buff.

Your big problem is a lack of range and a huge HQ tax. Guard infantry spam works in part because you can back it up with mortars, but that's just not an option for Eldar. Obsidian Rose does help a lot here -- Vostroyans are similarly great. Likewise Guard get very useful 40 point HQs, and you're buying 70 or 80 point Archons. This is especially a problem if you're doing MSU since you can only take 30 Warriors in a Battalion. You'd really like to be bringing big squads to more efficiently spread buffs around and lower your tax -- you can in theory bring 120 Warriors per 2 HQs -- but then morale is going to kill you (though Obsidian Rose does have a nifty stratagem for that).

You'll probably want haywire Scourges or something for anti-tank. Blasters won't cut it on footdar since even 24" range with OR won't be enough. Also blasters significantly worsen your durability. They bump you up to 9.4 points per model and make you no more durable than Guardians even with your FNP.

If you want to commit to this, the main thing is going to be to deny the enemy anything worth shooting a lascannon at. You benefit a lot from Craftworld allies, probably. Alatoic flyers can cover a lot of your weaknesses (and a Hemlock's Ld debuff will help a lot vs other infantry) while being at -2 to hit. Rangers are a nice supplement to your Warriors. A Farseer with Doom improves your output by 50% if you're not re-rolling 1s to wound already and by 28% if you are. You could also deep strike a bunch of Guardians. If you want to stay pure DE then Black Heart Razorwings are probably a good source of anti-TEQ and anti-tank. If Razorwing Flocks got cheaper again alongside the big changes to their attack profile they might be a strong addition, but if they're still 14 points they're garbage. Mandrakes are likely to be a solid choice. It is also possible that some Talos would be useful in a slower list where they're not getting left behind by fast skimmers. They're big multi-wound things, true, but with the 4++ coven and a Haemonculus' aura they have one of the most consistently under-costed defensive profiles in the game (T7 3+/4++). Actually some Cronos might be worth it since even though they can't kill anything they're quite possibly the most durable things in the game. They're as hard to injure as Leviathan Hive Tyrants and they pay 40% less per wound.

If the morale issue can be sorted out without having to pay a ton for extra HQs, that probably works reasonably well. Otherwise you're probably better off still bringing a bunch of transports to get into rapid-fire range turn 1. The big difference from a traditional DE list would be that you're not trying to pack as many blasters in as you can -- you're just putting a ton of cheap Venom and Kabalite wounds in the enemy's face immediately.

Tyel wrote:
Has anyone had some thoughts on a foot-deldar build?

Its largely theoretical for now - but I think a kabalite carpet might not be the madness its been for years. (I realise a lot of people really don't want to play "horde/gunline Dark eldar", but just go with it.)

Kabalite shooting MEQ,
1*2/3(rerolling 1s from Archon),*1/2*1/3*13/6=28% return on points.
So at rapid fire range that's 56% return on points. Which is nasty. Even better with the re-roll 1s to wound relic.

Its worse against guard - you get 17/34% efficiency there, which isn't perhaps top tier - but its far from terrible. Shredders might theoretically help for the first time ever - but I still probably wouldn't take them unless you were going Obsidian Rose for the extra range.

Meanwhile a blaster vs a rhino is getting
(2/3+rerolling1s)*2/3*3.5*10/23=79% return on points.

Shooting 6 point T3/5+/6+++ models isn't hugely efficient and if MSU morale is irrelevant.

It depends. If you go full all in haemoncally soak, you might soak all 7 turs?

Foor a full footdar list I would perhaps have an air detachment to lend some mobilaty. Their spped and -1 to hit can keep them alive.

I think footdar can work, i'll try it out once myself for sure. The big thing is you need tie up units, something like 3-4 units of 3 man reavers no upgrades to stop the attacks, 1 lance per 10man, and some HWB scourges. Mandrakes will be good too, being cheaper and -2 to hit, 5++ and 6+++ in black heart detachment.

Is it super comp? most likely not. But the problem is Raiders and Venoms are so cheap now (especially venoms @ 65pts base) the -1 to hit is an extra 16% suvivability and the 54+/++ is another 16% (well 16.667) to thats 33% better, being on 6 wounds tho, they are also being wounded on 4+ and not 3+, giving them even more defense over kabals.

It takes 72 bolter shots to kill a Venom
it takes 27 no overcharge plasma and 14 overcharge to kill a Venom.
Thats at 65pts, so whats 65pts of Kabals? 10 (well lets say 11).
It takes 42 Bolter shots to kill 65pts of Kabals (thats with a 6+++).

So, Venoms are for sure well worth it now, and thats not without the stratagem for an additional -1 to hit, or as Black Heart for a 6+++ on the Venom lol.

The big reason to not take Venoms is just that they give anti-tank weapons a target. In a worst-case scenario your opponent is going to be opening up Venoms with his heavier weapons and then killing the Warriors inside with bolters, without ever having to shoot bolters at Venoms. The Venoms are obviously more durable vs bolters but Warriors are just as durable as (non- Black Heart) Venoms vs BS3+ heavy bolters. The Warriors are more durable vs assault cannons. And then they're ~3 times as durable vs lascannons.

Of course, it depends a bit on what you're worried about. If you're expecting BS4+ then that -1 to hit is much more valuable.

I would like to have a flier as centerpiece in my army, but im speculating if the Razorwing or Voidraven is superior. The Razorscythe brings more shots, and the necrotoxin missiles are pretty good, especially now that they are 3d3 shots.

The voidraven on the other hand can bring str 9 lances for toughness 8 targets, and the bombs can potentially earn back the voidraven most of its cost in a single go against costly 10 man units. I heard that the voidraven missiles don't cost anything anymore so they should be pretty close in points. If not i guess a razorwing with Disintregator cannons & splinter cannon for 145 pts is a pretty good deal.

 ThePie wrote:
I would like to have a flier as centerpiece in my army, but im speculating if the Razorwing or Voidraven is superior. The Razorscythe brings more shots, and the necrotoxin missiles are pretty good, especially now that they are 3d3 shots.

The voidraven on the other hand can bring str 9 lances for toughness 8 targets, and the bombs can potentially earn back the voidraven most of its cost in a single go against costly 10 man units. I heard that the voidraven missiles don't cost anything anymore so they should be pretty close in points. If not i guess a razorwing with Disintregator cannons & splinter cannon for 145 pts is a pretty good deal.

Well some are saying the RWJF missiles are now 3 D3 shots, if that is the case it will be best for sure, you can also take Discannons on them for 5/10 points cheaper than lances. We need to see the codex on it 1st, and see if the missiles for the bomber are cheaper too.

The Ap-2 and the 4+ invuln are not cumulative on grotesques, aren't they? We must chose one of the two upgrades.

About the flyers, I've recently bought a bomber since I managed to find a BNIB one with a nice price discount. I think it was good even in the index version so I'm totally looking forward to try it Some of its missiles are the same ones of the razorwing, and if they're really free the bomber can even be the best flyer in the game.

Grotesques increased in cost by 1 point, but got ap -2 and 4 wounds. So depending on coven you have either a 4+ invulnerable or -3 ap, gonna look forward trying puttin 4 in a raidee with haemonculus.

OK so they're AP-2 stock. I wasn't sure if they were AP-2 beacuse of the coven bonus or not, thanks. I think the AP-2 is already huge, the 4+ invuln looks quite appealing

I've played the 4 dudes plus haemy in a raider combo several times in this edition, now with the codex I'll certainly continue to do that. The +1 points increase on grots is letterally nothing, we just have to field a few of them. And the haemy should be 4-5 points cheaper. However the raider is now way cheaper, -30 pts or even -35 if you give it a dis cannon.

I have 18 (well 20 but idk where 2 went) Grotesques that i used to LOVE to DS 10man units (You could DS and run in 7th) to make this insane large footprint of huge wound pool t5/6 units.

I want to try it again, but dont think it will be anywhere as effective due to how damage table is now. But with the 4++, it might be worth it.