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 lolman1c wrote:
You're asking an Ork player to play as a filthy loyalist? Ew! No! But no really. I'm not a competitive player.

lol, well maybe not, but have an ork lists thats not green tide and really won't be too fussed to see every heavy bolter and flame thrower ever made in one place.

Had some fun today using a fair few kans, still had 2x30 boyz & 1x20 grots in 1,250, but also 3x deff dreads (one survived) and 3x killa kans (all three survived), facing a list that was very "anti horde"

of note though, I had zero expensive but easily killed back field units to prey on, I won because he spent the first turn trying to kill the deff dreads (and got one of them for his efforts)

Dude, I don't play green tide! It's why I complain about Orks all the time! Right now I got like 50 Ork boyz painted (my 100+boys were shelved for when I can be bothered to paint them) i use while the rest of my troops are truks, wagons, kands, Morkanaut and dakkajets... I die easy with anti tank meta. :(

 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, I don't play green tide! It's why I complain about Orks all the time! Right now I got like 50 Ork boyz painted (my 100+boys were shelved for when I can be bothered to paint them) i use while the rest of my troops are truks, wagons, kands, Morkanaut and dakkajets... I die easy with anti tank meta. :(

Yeah that's not got a chance it really is green tide or auto lose, I've torn dreads apart with bloodclaws without breaking a sweat and bike are no better.

It's sad because orks are my friends main force and before he shelved them we played tons of games and no matter how gimped my list I couldn't lose.

I hope they get buffed but having seen tau and crons I'm not filled with confidence.

 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, I don't play green tide! It's why I complain about Orks all the time! Right now I got like 50 Ork boyz painted (my 100+boys were shelved for when I can be bothered to paint them) i use while the rest of my troops are truks, wagons, kands, Morkanaut and dakkajets... I die easy with anti tank meta. :(

Thats a problem with the game design and the way Orks are done, a unit of 5-10 models that have no real protection and a single wound in the game as it stands can only be protected by making them "not the most important thing to kill right now".

Not your fault, its a poor game design, those Loota etc need to be a lot cheaper to reflect just how fragile they are, then you either have more of them or care less when they do get shot.

GW haven't got to grips with how to price in a weapons cost based on the fact it will likely be on the table for one, maybe two turns in some lists, or six in another

hobojebus wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Dude, I don't play green tide! It's why I complain about Orks all the time! Right now I got like 50 Ork boyz painted (my 100+boys were shelved for when I can be bothered to paint them) i use while the rest of my troops are truks, wagons, kands, Morkanaut and dakkajets... I die easy with anti tank meta. :(

Yeah that's not got a chance it really is green tide or auto lose, I've torn dreads apart with bloodclaws without breaking a sweat and bike are no better.

It's sad because orks are my friends main force and before he shelved them we played tons of games and no matter how gimped my list I couldn't lose.

I hope they get buffed but having seen tau and crons I'm not filled with confidence.

The Ork situation is laughably bad. Out of me and my two closest wargaming friends (guys I've played with for almost a decade now), I play a super aggressive Chaos army that tables almost everyone I play (if I use my competitive army; I have other gimmick armies), one of my mates plays a super competitive Super Heavy Guard army (the kind that wins against anything that isn't pure horde spam and even then it's 50/50) and the other plays a mech heavy Ork army (he has 3 Stompas, 2 Orkanauts and loads of defdreads and killakans).

My Ork playing friend is a really good player (the kind that won tournaments back in 5th/6th/7th) but he just can't win this edition, even when he pulls out his two 30 man units of boyz. I played against him at 3000pts last year and managed to whipe out 60 Ork Boyz, a Stompa and most of his KillaKans using just my Berzerkers (well they had a bit of help but they did the heavy lifting). If we weren't such good friends I'd feel sorry for the guy.

My ork boyz drop like flies when someone focuses on them, of something charges them.

Seems fitting for a 6 point model that can do huge harm to things it charges, but fitting they lack the stamina to survive if they don’t kill stuff.

You lose three of four mobs of them while the other two can win you the game.

It’s a bit dull to play though, aiming for 3x30 here then other toys

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
20 lootas will deal 6.67 wounds to t7 3+. 57 shootaboyz will deal 4.20 with shooting alone. And than they'll punch it down to death. And they're 3 times more durable and have less ld problems.

Daedalus81 just likes to pick a horrible ork unit and start protecting it =)

How do you propose to get 57 models within 18" of said tank?

People like to make ridiculous arguments without consideration for board space, range, or anything else for that matter.

Any good ork player worth his squig could do that easy! I once fit 60 models in a deepstrike corner edge smaller that 10"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But no really... A lot of units get extra range this edition and i don't think there is a single battle report online I have seen where the lootas don't get shot and killed by something in the first turn or so. Hell, most games now are on a board that most weapons can fire accross.

I have fit 100 models in range of a KFF Big Mek..... completely doable.

You guys realize that you deploy in your own zone, right?

Not with sneaky blood axe kommandos you don't; )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember guys! Gw doesn't own 4k points of Orks so this might also explain a bit.

 lolman1c wrote:
Not with sneaky blood axe kommandos you don't; )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember guys! Gw doesn't own 4k points of Orks so this might also explain a bit.

Well, then you've increased cost by 50% and reduced max size and the number of shots by 50%.

Somewhat unrelated but with this talk about Ork shooting it made me wonder "Why don't the Orks having a zogging punisher gatling cannon equivalent?". Also for a faction that is designed around being rather bad at aiming but love dakka why aren't Ork weapons higher volume of fire? Big Shootas and Deffguns are basically equivalent to their heavy bolter and auto cannon counterparts but there aren't any real bullet hose weapons outside of the Stompa's gun. Also Orks love to push things to their logical (or illogical) extremes so why isn't there a gun on a battlewagon that fires 60 shots?

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Spending one CP for another chance at 45 shots instead of 15 is well worth the cost. I don’t know why I would use CPs otherwise.

Which is still chance. 100% equal chance for it to be still 15. And you have wasted strategem and CP which could have been better spent elsewhere. Plus only works with one unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You guys realize that you deploy in your own zone, right?

So? 200 models fit in 6'x4' without trouble now especially since a) terrain is irrelevant b) templates don't exists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Somewhat unrelated but with this talk about Ork shooting it made me wonder "Why don't the Orks having a zogging punisher gatling cannon equivalent?". Also for a faction that is designed around being rather bad at aiming but love dakka why aren't Ork weapons higher volume of fire? Big Shootas and Deffguns are basically equivalent to their heavy bolter and auto cannon counterparts but there aren't any real bullet hose weapons outside of the Stompa's gun. Also Orks love to push things to their logical (or illogical) extremes so why isn't there a gun on a battlewagon that fires 60 shots?

While that sounds logical enough I shudder to think actually playing that out. Especially with ork BS being low you can't price that THAT high so multiples are easy enough. If orks gets any rerolls...It's pain in the ass to roll punisher russ as it is!

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You guys realize that you deploy in your own zone, right?

So? 200 models fit in 6'x4' without trouble now especially since a) terrain is irrelevant b) templates don't exists.

That's not the point.

It's that Lootas would start out shooting from their side of the table whereas 60 or so boyz would need to hoof it before they could start shooting.

tneva82 wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Spending one CP for another chance at 45 shots instead of 15 is well worth the cost. I don’t know why I would use CPs otherwise.

Which is still chance. 100% equal chance for it to be still 15. And you have wasted strategem and CP which could have been better spent elsewhere. Plus only works with one unit.

Re-rolls are always the 100% same odds. Would I reroll a Terminator’s 2+ save even though it’s the same odds as rolling it before? Yes, because I have a better chance of not rolling a one regardless of when I roll the die.

1/3 of the time I’m going to roll a 1 on my Lootas. When I reroll that 1 I still have better chance to get higher than 1, 66% percent chance. I still have 33% chance to roll a 1 but that’s wargaming, taking chances on probability.

Now if you said you’d rather spend that CP on something else with better odds I ask you what would you use it on? Maybe Mob Up or Dakka Dakka Dakka. Or any of the number of reroll a in other things? But if you are taking Lootas CP rerolling their 1 is by far not a waste of a CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You guys realize that you deploy in your own zone, right?

So? 200 models fit in 6'x4' without trouble now especially since a) terrain is irrelevant b) templates don't exists.

That's not the point.

It's that Lootas would start out shooting from their side of the table whereas 60 or so boyz would need to hoof it before they could start shooting.

Or jump there via some kind of jumping psychic power.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You guys realize that you deploy in your own zone, right?

So? 200 models fit in 6'x4' without trouble now especially since a) terrain is irrelevant b) templates don't exists.

That's not the point.

It's that Lootas would start out shooting from their side of the table whereas 60 or so boyz would need to hoof it before they could start shooting.

Or jump there via some kind of jumping psychic power.

Is this really that hard for you guys to understand? How do you propose to get 60 of them over there in one turn?

Turn 1
-Lootas shoot
-30 Boyz get jumped with non-zero chance of failure. Also assuming the opponent has no units buffering the places they can land to get their guns in range.

Lootas, 40 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.7 wounds, 3.33 though, 6.7 damage
Boyz, 60 shots, 20 hits, 6.7 wounds, 2.2 through, 2.2 damage

Turn 2
-Lootas shoot
-Boyz jump

Lootas : 6.7
Boyz : 4.4 -- assuming you'd have 60 models within 18" of the target...which you won't.

Total Score
Lootas : 13.4
Boyz : 6.6

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You guys realize that you deploy in your own zone, right?

So? 200 models fit in 6'x4' without trouble now especially since a) terrain is irrelevant b) templates don't exists.

That's not the point.

It's that Lootas would start out shooting from their side of the table whereas 60 or so boyz would need to hoof it before they could start shooting.

Or jump there via some kind of jumping psychic power.

Is this really that hard for you guys to understand? How do you propose to get 60 of them over there in one turn?

Turn 1
-Lootas shoot
-30 Boyz get jumped with non-zero chance of failure. Also assuming the opponent has no units buffering the places they can land to get their guns in range.

Lootas, 40 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.7 wounds, 3.33 though, 6.7 damage
Boyz, 60 shots, 20 hits, 6.7 wounds, 2.2 through, 2.2 damage

Turn 2
-Lootas shoot
-Boyz jump

Lootas : 6.7
Boyz : 4.4 -- assuming you'd have 60 models within 18" of the target...which you won't.

Total Score
Lootas : 13.4
Boyz : 6.6

That's if the boyz don't get the charge off turn 1. One unit will definitely be in combat turn 2 and the second may be in as well.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You guys realize that you deploy in your own zone, right?

So? 200 models fit in 6'x4' without trouble now especially since a) terrain is irrelevant b) templates don't exists.

That's not the point.

It's that Lootas would start out shooting from their side of the table whereas 60 or so boyz would need to hoof it before they could start shooting.

Not really, I always jump 30-40 shootaboyz turn one so they're in range to shoot and in range to assault. Even if they fail the charge they become priority target next turn allowing the rest of the army to advance. Even if I don't get first turn I'll surely have a mob at its full strenght to jump, but if I have lootas they will probably evaporate without having the chance to strike. Or maybe, best case scenario, they'll be decimated and already harmless with only a few dudes remaining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Turn 2
-Lootas shoot
-Boyz jump

I don't think there any lootas left to shoot in turn 2

 Blackie wrote:


I don't think there any lootas left to shoot in turn 2

Yea, I mean if they have something like a fire raptor you're going to have a bad time for sure. Last time I played against them I had a hard time getting a gun on them that didn't want to shoot a FW tank / kopta / buggy instead.

Lootas die when somebody says boo, no need for fire rapto

tneva82 wrote:
Lootas die when somebody says boo, no need for fire rapto

Depends who you're playing. There isn't a ton of anti-infantry shooting beyond 36". A Manticore does 1.6 if you have 5++/6+++ up (which is mathematically very close to a 4++). Wyverns would be scary, but I don't see a lot of those popping up over Basilisks/Manticores.

tneva82 wrote:
Lootas die when somebody says boo, no need for fire rapto

Especially with mediocre at best bravery and no mobs nearby for "fearless"

I have a total of 45 lootas, and in truth, they've NEVER been good, in any game I've ever brought them, regardless of edition. They've always been wildly marginal. Even at 3 shots each, their damage output has always been 'meh'.

And in this edition with - to hit modifiers and no cover saves (effectively) they're still a pretty terrible choice in general.

I personally find KMK batteries to be infinitely more effective.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Lootas die when somebody says boo, no need for fire rapto

Depends who you're playing. There isn't a ton of anti-infantry shooting beyond 36". A Manticore does 1.6 if you have 5++/6+++ up (which is mathematically very close to a 4++). Wyverns would be scary, but I don't see a lot of those popping up over Basilisks/Manticores.

In what tables you play where 36" ISN'T enough? 6'x4' board is small enough that 36" is more than enough(hell on good board getting LOS longer than that shouldn't even be automatic anyway)

 Vankraken wrote:
Somewhat unrelated but with this talk about Ork shooting it made me wonder "Why don't the Orks having a zogging punisher gatling cannon equivalent?". Also for a faction that is designed around being rather bad at aiming but love dakka why aren't Ork weapons higher volume of fire? Big Shootas and Deffguns are basically equivalent to their heavy bolter and auto cannon counterparts but there aren't any real bullet hose weapons outside of the Stompa's gun. Also Orks love to push things to their logical (or illogical) extremes so why isn't there a gun on a battlewagon that fires 60 shots?

Orks used to be the army that rolled the most dice, in melee or in shooting - that said, most of the shooting wouldn't hit; but that was the point. Quality of fire was counter-balanced by volume of fire. Orks lived and diced by the laws of averages.

If Punisher 20/40 averages 10/20 hits at BS4+, Orks deserve 30/60 gattling kannons at BS5+; they have the same amount of average hits, so it's about equal. It quickly becomes one-sided once [-1 to-hit] modifiers are brought into play, but that's a separate issue.

Armies should be jealous of the amount of dakka/dice that orks put out, not the other way around.

Guard should outshot Orks, unless you want the Guard to be able to match the Orks in CC

 Bobthehero wrote:
Guard should outshot Orks, unless you want the Guard to be able to match the Orks in CC

Pretty sure someone figured out a synergy that actually gives conscripts or guardsman the same S and number of attacks Orks have. I want to have a fun army where I can do that!

 Bobthehero wrote:
Guard should outshot Orks, unless you want the Guard to be able to match the Orks in CC

Guard being better at range is fine.

Guard having more shots at range is not.

You want them equal, that's what your post is about, its wrong, the Ork equivalent of a Punisher shouldn't be 30 shots, it should be 25, at best, the point being that the Guard one is better.

The problem is not that the Punisher is 20 shots, nor is the problem that to be the same the Ork version would need 30, the problem is the Ork version would get 2d6 or maybe 3d6 shots, and be more expensive

Well the IG autocannon is 15 pts, before you put it on anything, that does mean that the Orks equivalent is cheaper with possibly more shots (at least that how it was), unless Lootas are 2ppm, somehow I doubt it. And I wonder just how much of XdY weapons are a result of people liking random results and GW going ''Well, they like it, we'll give it to them''.