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I'm not sure Merkel is a big fan of the "strong on crime" tactic to gain popularity points, though this might be a deliberate shift after her famous/infamous "Wir schaffen das" - "We can do it" policies regarding immigration that really defined the last years of her in office. I've not really seen another admission by government officials about the existence of no-go zones, especially "refugee" or "muslim" ones. Local newspapers and citizens in some cities declare such an area from time to time, but obviously it's a bit hard to verify if they are objective in their assessment of the situation.

A counterpoint to this is the German head of the police union, Rainer Wendt. He recently cited a study claiming 30% of violent crime cases are due to refugees and foreigners, though they only present 10% of Germany's inhabitants. The recent rise in (solved) "violent crime cases" is apparently refugee-based in 92,1% of cases, he says. Wendt its basing these numbers on recent police crime statistics, as far as I can see it. Though as a caveat, he is a very polarizing figure here, hailed as somebody "finally naming things like they are" by more right-leaning people and political commentators and being an absolute hate magnet for the left to far-left counterparts.

In the end, I don' think there are any no-go areas as gruesome as described by FOX news, but there are certainly areas with high crime rates and possibly also ethnicity-based quarrels and issues. That there is a certain amount of segregation happening between migrants, refugees and "people living longer in the country" (as some government official described native Germans a while ago, I just find the turn of phrase still a bit weird), as can be seen in some school statistics regarding the larger cities - Berlin is dealing with 35+ schools having an 80% migrant/refugee proportion of students, every fifth school in Essen has 75%+ migrants/refugees in the school system, just two quick google results I found. However, this alone does not mean there are favela-like structures in Germany where only SWAT teams go in riot control gear, it means there are some areas who a) have a higher crime rate and b) also a higher rate of migrants/refugees - which is still comparably descriptive, since it does not incorporate aspects like poverty, education, professions, public funding for infrastructure in those areas, etc.

 Witzkatz wrote:
In the end, I don' think there are any no-go areas as gruesome as described by FOX news, but there are certainly areas with high crime rates and possibly also ethnicity-based quarrels and issues. That there is a certain amount of segregation happening between migrants, refugees and "people living longer in the country" (as some government official described native Germans a while ago, I just find the turn of phrase still a bit weird), as can be seen in some school statistics regarding the larger cities - Berlin is dealing with 35+ schools having an 80% migrant/refugee proportion of students, every fifth school in Essen has 75%+ migrants/refugees in the school system, just two quick google results I found. However, this alone does not mean there are favela-like structures in Germany where only SWAT teams go in riot control gear, it means there are some areas who a) have a higher crime rate and b) also a higher rate of migrants/refugees - which is still comparably descriptive, since it does not incorporate aspects like poverty, education, professions, public funding for infrastructure in those areas, etc.

And ofc, you don't need very much in the way of evidence (especially if you're writing for a tabloid) to declare some part of a city a "no-go" zone. After 20 years in security work I can tell enough stories about that one suburb in my home town that a dishonest (hell, maybe even a somewhat honest) reporter could leap to the conclusion. It does have the cheapest homes and a large percentage of city- and social services assisted living so many of the inhabitants are poorer people - natives with crappy jobs, immigrants, unemployed, addicts, but also many corporate-owned flats for foreign workers that do a few weeks or months of some project on the nearby refinery. The police do drug busts every month, seldom large, but still drug busts. Once a guy with personal problems started firing a rifle from his balcony. And there was that time some Russian, or possibly Polish, workers walked into the local kebab place and beat up a few of the customers, locals. Hearing what the other customers shouted after the escaping attackers I don't much wonder.

Hmm. Do you think any foreign newspaper would pay me for the story of this "no-go" zone in peaceful Finland?

 Witzkatz wrote:
In the end, I don' think there are any no-go areas as gruesome as described by FOX news, but there are certainly areas with high crime rates and possibly also ethnicity-based quarrels and issues.

Yeah, I think there are issues to be considered with ghettos. Ethnic concentration can be great, but too often for a range of reasons it occurs in low income areas with very limited economic opportunities. Then problems of language, cultural understandings etc tend to get exacerbated, while the benefits culture tend not to be enjoyed - for instance it is an enormous boost to an economy to bring in more working age people, but only if they are connected to jobs.

Like a lot of things, this is a conversation that needs to happen, because some places bypass these problems with various immigration, town planning and social services rules, and other places actually make the problems worse through bungled policy. But it's very hard to have that conversation when there's this constant drumbeat running a really alarmist, crazy version of police ceding whole areas to Sharia councils.

Only tangentially related, I suppose, but I read the other day that the Danish leftwing party wants to enforce de-segregation of immigrants to improve integration. They've gone so far as to say that integration policy of the past decades has failed, and a new course is needed.

As noted, they often tend to cluster together in city quarters which certainly can act as barrier to entering the new country's society at large and if not carefully managed can lead to ghetto's forming.

While I don't know that they're completely right, I do think that having schools with 70+% immigrant children when those only make up about 5% of the population is definitely a questionable statistic that requires attention.
Let's not get into some of the fringe political parties on the rise in, for example, the Netherlands.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Only tangentially related, I suppose, but I read the other day that the Danish leftwing party wants to enforce de-segregation of immigrants to improve integration.

Hmm... which Danish party was it that had a simpler solution to the problem? Anyone living in one of the "marked" districts will get a harsher sentence it he commits a crime, because obviously that will help. He'll immediately - and by honest means - get a place to live somewhere else if he wants to become a criminal!

It was weird when I went to Frankfurt. You think of it as a rich, trendy city but the main train station was full of crack heads and immigrants and right next to the red light district!

Certainly not a no-go area, but enough to make most middle class people distinctly uncomfortable I'd warrant!

I mean speaking of Denmark, are we really surprised when Denmark is increasingly pulling to the right politically? Remember their "hand over your valuables refugee!" plan? The emotional value clause included just made it weird.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/26/danish-parliament-approves-plan-to-seize-assets-from-refugees

Merkel’s own statement never really envoke the “no police” definitions, and leans much more heavily on the “people don’t feel safe” definition.

 Kroem wrote:
It was weird when I went to Frankfurt. You think of it as a rich, trendy city but the main train station was full of crack heads and immigrants and right next to the red light district!

Certainly not a no-go area, but enough to make most middle class people distinctly uncomfortable I'd warrant!

I think that's the sort of thing Merkel meant by no-go areas. Places people would want to avoid due to concerns about it being "unsafe"

 Kroem wrote:
It was weird when I went to Frankfurt. You think of it as a rich, trendy city but the main train station was full of crack heads and immigrants and right next to the red light district!

Certainly not a no-go area, but enough to make most middle class people distinctly uncomfortable I'd warrant!

Sounds like a regular Hauptbahnhof to me!

These things are a matter of perception.

My wife feels uncomfortable if there is a mini-cab office, a betting shop and a kebab shop in the high street.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What about my post do you not understand?

Ha!

Nothing!

 Witzkatz wrote:
I'm not sure Merkel is a big fan of the "strong on crime" tactic to gain popularity points, though this might be a deliberate shift after her famous/infamous "Wir schaffen das" - "We can do it" policies regarding immigration that really defined the last years of her in office. I've not really seen another admission by government officials about the existence of no-go zones, especially "refugee" or "muslim" ones. Local newspapers and citizens in some cities declare such an area from time to time, but obviously it's a bit hard to verify if they are objective in their assessment of the situation.

A counterpoint to this is the German head of the police union, Rainer Wendt. He recently cited a study claiming 30% of violent crime cases are due to refugees and foreigners, though they only present 10% of Germany's inhabitants. The recent rise in (solved) "violent crime cases" is apparently refugee-based in 92,1% of cases, he says. Wendt its basing these numbers on recent police crime statistics, as far as I can see it. Though as a caveat, he is a very polarizing figure here, hailed as somebody "finally naming things like they are" by more right-leaning people and political commentators and being an absolute hate magnet for the left to far-left counterparts.

In the end, I don' think there are any no-go areas as gruesome as described by FOX news, but there are certainly areas with high crime rates and possibly also ethnicity-based quarrels and issues. That there is a certain amount of segregation happening between migrants, refugees and "people living longer in the country" (as some government official described native Germans a while ago, I just find the turn of phrase still a bit weird), as can be seen in some school statistics regarding the larger cities - Berlin is dealing with 35+ schools having an 80% migrant/refugee proportion of students, every fifth school in Essen has 75%+ migrants/refugees in the school system, just two quick google results I found. However, this alone does not mean there are favela-like structures in Germany where only SWAT teams go in riot control gear, it means there are some areas who a) have a higher crime rate and b) also a higher rate of migrants/refugees - which is still comparably descriptive, since it does not incorporate aspects like poverty, education, professions, public funding for infrastructure in those areas, etc.

Witzkatz, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to hear, thanks. I really wanted to hear more from Germans living in Germany during all this than other dakkas who aren't and theorizing what is or should be happening. I know most media and political groups have agendas these days, so its hard to get a clear picture. I imagine no-go can be used in a lot of ways. I mean, just because the police are willing to go into Overtown (Miami) for example, doesn't mean I want spend any time there.

 Kroem wrote:
Certainly not a no-go area, but enough to make most middle class people distinctly uncomfortable I'd warrant!

This is absolutely true and not even specific to Frankfurt. Lots of cities have areas certain groups do not want to go to. As a tourist I am pretty sure there are places every where I visit that I would want to avoid. I think the issue that comes up is when people start debating why those areas want to be avoided. Its pretty natural to imagine what happens to an area when a bunch of new people with no money or jobs, settle in a area where they do not share the same culture or language. Some of these groups not only segregate themselves ("Lets just move to where we have more in common with people"), but are also biased against too ("Settle them in this area"). The next thing you know the landscape is changing and the original people living there don't recognize it.

I guess no-go is definitely over-doing it, but I don't think its outlandish to accept that crime and poverty is going to be high in those areas for awhile.

 Mysterio wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
What about my post do you not understand?

Ha!

Nothing!

Then you're clearly the only one. Everyone else in this thread understood it, some people even agreed with it (if partially) who I expected would vehemently disagree, and the thread has moved on.

Something to consider is the fact that, after a while, these areas that have been settled by a particular immigrant population become celebrated. My city is proud of it's claim to Canada's oldest Chinatown, and it's a featured heavily as part of our tourism. Similar Chinatowns and Little Italys exist across North America.

There is nothing about this new wave of brown immigrants that hasn't already been said about every other wave of Italians, Poles, Germans, Chinese and every other non-WASP immigrant that has settled. Within a few generations, the immigrant population will be subsumed by the dominant local culture, and the local culture will adopt a few of the most delicious dishes of the immigrants. (Shawarma is amazing, for example)

Good point - well said too!

 feeder wrote:
Something to consider is the fact that, after a while, these areas that have been settled by a particular immigrant population become celebrated. My city is proud of it's claim to Canada's oldest Chinatown, and it's a featured heavily as part of our tourism. Similar Chinatowns and Little Italys exist across North America.

There is nothing about this new wave of brown immigrants that hasn't already been said about every other wave of Italians, Poles, Germans, Chinese and every other non-WASP immigrant that has settled. Within a few generations, the immigrant population will be subsumed by the dominant local culture, and the local culture will adopt a few of the most delicious dishes of the immigrants. (Shawarma is amazing, for example)

How do you know that? There is no guarantee that current waves of immigrants will be integrated just as effectively as past waves of immigrants. The factors in play today are entirely different. The cultural and religious values of Muslims are different to the migrants who came from British Commonwealth countries. British culture was different back in the 1950's compared to today, and we already had a shared culture thanks to the influence of the British Empire on the Commonwealth countries that a lot of people originated from.

It's all well and good declaring that you think contemporary immigrants will be integrated effectively. But that will only happen if we don't let ourselves become complacent, and we take appropriate measures to integrate people.


That said...Shawarma is indeed delicious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mysterio wrote:
Good point - well said too!

Its a nice sentiment, but it reeks of complacency to me.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Something to consider is the fact that, after a while, these areas that have been settled by a particular immigrant population become celebrated. My city is proud of it's claim to Canada's oldest Chinatown, and it's a featured heavily as part of our tourism. Similar Chinatowns and Little Italys exist across North America.

There is nothing about this new wave of brown immigrants that hasn't already been said about every other wave of Italians, Poles, Germans, Chinese and every other non-WASP immigrant that has settled. Within a few generations, the immigrant population will be subsumed by the dominant local culture, and the local culture will adopt a few of the most delicious dishes of the immigrants. (Shawarma is amazing, for example)

How do you know that? There is no guarantee that current waves of immigrants will be integrated just as effectively as past waves of immigrants. The factors in play today are entirely different. The cultural and religious values of Muslims are different to the migrants who came from British Commonwealth countries. British culture was different back in the 1950's compared to today, and we already had a shared culture thanks to the influence of the British Empire on the Commonwealth countries that a lot of people originated from.

I don't think the folks that first came to San Francisco Chinatown had much in common with their neighbours.

Especially considering that chinatowns were in a not insignificant part created as a defence from anti-Chinese attacks from people who blamed them for driving wages down.

I would not compare the US to the UK. For better and worse they are different cultures.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Something to consider is the fact that, after a while, these areas that have been settled by a particular immigrant population become celebrated. My city is proud of it's claim to Canada's oldest Chinatown, and it's a featured heavily as part of our tourism. Similar Chinatowns and Little Italys exist across North America.

There is nothing about this new wave of brown immigrants that hasn't already been said about every other wave of Italians, Poles, Germans, Chinese and every other non-WASP immigrant that has settled. Within a few generations, the immigrant population will be subsumed by the dominant local culture, and the local culture will adopt a few of the most delicious dishes of the immigrants. (Shawarma is amazing, for example)

How do you know that? There is no guarantee that current waves of immigrants will be integrated just as effectively as past waves of immigrants. The factors in play today are entirely different. The cultural and religious values of Muslims are different to the migrants who came from British Commonwealth countries. British culture was different back in the 1950's compared to today, and we already had a shared culture thanks to the influence of the British Empire on the Commonwealth countries that a lot of people originated from.

It's all well and good declaring that you think contemporary immigrants will be integrated effectively. But that will only happen if we don't let ourselves become complacent, and we take appropriate measures to integrate people.

Chinese (and to a lesser extent, Italian and Polish and German) cultural and religious values were just as different to the contemporary North American WASP culture as the various brown and black immigrant cultures are to modern North American culture (if rampant consumerism and tribal virtue signalling can be considered culture ) They will integrate just fine.

That said...Shawarma is indeed delicious.

There is no easier way to get to know someone than breaking bread together

.

 feeder wrote:
Chinese (and to a lesser extent, Italian and Polish and German) cultural and religious values were just as different to the contemporary North American WASP culture as the various brown and black immigrant cultures are to modern North American culture (if rampant consumerism and tribal virtue signalling can be considered culture ) They will integrate just fine.

Again...you don't know that. The conditions today are different to the conditions of past generations. There is no guarantee that future immigrants will integrate.

All I'm saying is...don't be complacent.

KTG17 wrote:
Witzkatz, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to hear, thanks. I really wanted to hear more from Germans living in Germany during all this than other dakkas who aren't and theorizing what is or should be happening. I know most media and political groups have agendas these days, so its hard to get a clear picture. I imagine no-go can be used in a lot of ways. I mean, just because the police are willing to go into Overtown (Miami) for example, doesn't mean I want spend any time there.

You needed an actual German living in Germany to tell you there are indeed dangerous neighborhoods somewhere in the country?

I find it hard to believe almost anyone in any country anywhere in the world would be willing to say their entire country is pretty safe. Maybe one of those micronations or something.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Chinese (and to a lesser extent, Italian and Polish and German) cultural and religious values were just as different to the contemporary North American WASP culture as the various brown and black immigrant cultures are to modern North American culture (if rampant consumerism and tribal virtue signalling can be considered culture ) They will integrate just fine.

Again...you don't know that. The conditions today are different to the conditions of past generations. There is no guarantee that future immigrants will integrate.

All I'm saying is...don't be complacent.

What is so different?

We don't have violent racism against 'the other' ingrained in our culture, up to and including overt systemic oppression by legal authority. We don't have a unified press stirring up anti-immigrant sentiment. (we still have those things, but they are pretty much the fringe)

We now have government and volunteer run integration programs. We now have a comprehensive school system that is free until young adulthood. We have affordable sports leagues and other extra-curricular activities.

My kid has brown immigrant friends and their parents are just the same as her white friends except they have an accent and one of them wears the headscarf. They volunteer and tell jokes and complain about the weather like everyone else.

People are pretty much the same the world over. We all just want to have a laugh and something to eat and hope our kids have a slightly better life than we did.

Daily mail is like Fox News, Pretty much all of it is lies or propaganda and at worst hate speech designed to sway weak willed and uneducated people into unwarranted hate against whatever boogeyman of the week they choose.

 Ouze wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
Witzkatz, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping to hear, thanks. I really wanted to hear more from Germans living in Germany during all this than other dakkas who aren't and theorizing what is or should be happening. I know most media and political groups have agendas these days, so its hard to get a clear picture. I imagine no-go can be used in a lot of ways. I mean, just because the police are willing to go into Overtown (Miami) for example, doesn't mean I want spend any time there.

You needed an actual German living in Germany to tell you there are indeed dangerous neighborhoods somewhere in the country?

No, I needed a German point of view from someone living there versus an American or Brit who thinks they know what is going on there. Saying that for the second time.

Yes, but the thing you are asking is so fundamentally obvious - "are there dangerous places in your country" - it doesn't really seem like something you need a man on the scene for. It's like me asking if it rains a lot in London, but I need someone in London to confirm.

I think you're picking a safe, vague fallback for a sharia law bait thread which had a flimsier foundation that expected.

I am a german living in germany. We had huge tents for refugees beheind the uni where i study. And there where no problems as far as I know. The article is pretty much right wing Propaganda. There is no such thing as "no go zone" in germany.

 Ouze wrote:

I think you're picking a safe, vague fallback for a sharia law bait thread which had a flimsier foundation that expected.

Its amazing every time I try to actually have a conversation about something that's going on in the world, someone like you comes along to try and ruin it.

I would honestly think that, by now, that everyone would see that I don't do vague fallbacks. I am pretty open and pretty blunt. If I wanted to trash sharia law, I would be.

But keep trying.

If I was mistaken, then I apologize.