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topaxygouroun i wrote:
The AS is not the Psyker. The whole unit has the Psyker keyword. That is the point in question.

A psyker is someone who has the Psyker keyword, not someone who can cast powers.

No, it isn't. A psyker is someone who's datasheet says they are a psyker. the PSYKER keyword means literally nothing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The AS is not the Psyker. The whole unit has the Psyker keyword. That is the point in question.

A psyker is someone who has the Psyker keyword, not someone who can cast powers.

No, it isn't. A psyker is someone who's datasheet says they are a psyker. the PSYKER keyword means literally nothing.

I would say then could you provide a instance of a unit other then rubics which are in question that are a psyker and can not cast a power


Automatically Appended Next Post:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The AS is not the Psyker. The whole unit has the Psyker keyword. That is the point in question.

A psyker is someone who has the Psyker keyword, not someone who can cast powers.

Yes, lore wise and fluffy wise the the AS is the psyker in the unit, lore wise rubrics have no psyker powers. How ever the unit gets the keyword because the AS would have it.

The AS is the psyker and transfers that keyword to the unit. But once he is gone, you can not cast power, but the unit would still retain the psyker key word.

Does it matter if there isn't another example? You know different units have different rules, right?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Does it matter if there isn't another example? You know different units have different rules, right?

It would matter because if rubics are the only instance of a unit that has the ability to have the psyker keyword but not have the ability to cast powers, you can then have the debate of if loosing the model from the unit that is the one that can cast the powers, ergo has the psyker key word, on his death would the unit then loose the psyker keyword.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Does it matter if there isn't another example? You know different units have different rules, right?

It would matter because if rubics are the only instance of a unit that has the ability to have the psyker keyword but not have the ability to cast powers, you can then have the debate of if loosing the model from the unit that is the one that can cast the powers, ergo has the psyker key word, on his death would the unit then loose the psyker keyword.

You're conflating the PSYKER keyword and the Psyker part of the datasheet again.

It's so simple, you're making it complicated by implying rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Does it matter if there isn't another example? You know different units have different rules, right?

It would matter because if rubics are the only instance of a unit that has the ability to have the psyker keyword but not have the ability to cast powers, you can then have the debate of if loosing the model from the unit that is the one that can cast the powers, ergo has the psyker key word, on his death would the unit then loose the psyker keyword.

You're conflating the PSYKER keyword and the Psyker part of the datasheet again.

It's so simple, you're making it complicated by implying rules.

THats the point there, is there ever an instance in which a psyker, does not have the PSYKER keyword, or vise verse.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
THats the point there, is there ever an instance in which a psyker, does not have the PSYKER keyword, or vise verse.

Again, why does that matter? Being a PSYKER doesn't grant you powers, the Psyker portion of the Datasheet does. In the Rubrics case, the Psyker portion only grants powers to the Sorcerer, while the entire unit has the PSYKER keyword.

Keywords do not grant rules, they are used as references for other rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
THats the point there, is there ever an instance in which a psyker, does not have the PSYKER keyword, or vise verse.

Again, why does that matter? Being a PSYKER doesn't grant you powers, the Psyker portion of the Datasheet does. In the Rubrics case, the Psyker portion only grants powers to the Sorcerer, while the entire unit has the PSYKER keyword.

Keywords do not grant rules, they are used as references for other rules.

It matters because if an instance never occurs in which a unit has the PSYKER keyword, and is not a psyker. Then it can be argued upon the death of the AS vs a perils, the rubic unit would loose the PSKYER keyword as there is no longer a psyker in the unit since he is dead. OR alternativly it can be argued that since the unit is a PSYKER, per the rules you can allocated those mortal wounds from a peril to the rubrics first before the AS

The Aspiring Sorcerer is the only model in the group who can manifest powers; because he is the only model in the group that is said to be able to. BCB quoted the relevant rules - just because a model knows a power, does not mean it can manifest it.

1 power per turn.

Since he's the one casting it, if he perils, he's going to blow himself up; After that, he blows up AGAIN, and you follow the rules for that per normal.

The only remaining question is - are the d3 wounds constrained to only the Aspiring Sorcerer when he blows up; or like other mortal wounds, since he's part of a squad, they continue to spread?

Since there's no indication that the d3 MWs suffered by a perils just vanish (since in no other case does a MW vanish, unless the unit completely died (single model unit psykers)), it's my understanding they would continue to spread throughout his group.

So; an Aspiring Sorcerer perils - he suffers d3 wounds (which can spread to the squad), and then blows up (which can affect the squad).

Chaotic - fitting.

They would spread because mortal wounds.

fe40k wrote:
The Aspiring Sorcerer is the only model in the group who can manifest powers; because he is the only model in the group that is said to be able to. BCB quoted the relevant rules - just because a model knows a power, does not mean it can manifest it.

1 power per turn.

Since he's the one casting it, if he perils, he's going to blow himself up; After that, he blows up AGAIN, and you follow the rules for that per normal.

The only remaining question is - are the d3 wounds constrained to only the Aspiring Sorcerer when he blows up; or like other mortal wounds, since he's part of a squad, they continue to spread?

Since there's no indication that the d3 MWs suffered by a perils just vanish (since in no other case does a MW vanish, unless the unit completely died (single model unit psykers)), it's my understanding they would continue to spread throughout his group.

So; an Aspiring Sorcerer perils - he suffers d3 wounds (which can spread to the squad), and then blows up (which can affect the squad).

Chaotic - fitting.

SO i agree that if he perils he pops, but again you can argue, that the unit did not die, only explodes if the unit dies.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Then it can be argued upon the death of the AS vs a perils, the rubic unit would loose the PSKYER keyword as there is no longer a psyker in the unit since he is dead.

What? No, that's not how rules work. You can't infer a rule that doesn't exist by looking for correlation. The rule has to be explicitly stated.

Stux wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Then it can be argued upon the death of the AS vs a perils, the rubic unit would loose the PSKYER keyword as there is no longer a psyker in the unit since he is dead.

What? No, that's not how rules work. You can't infer a rule that doesn't exist by looking for correlation. The rule has to be explicitly stated.

Im not inering it im saying that can be argued that if when the AS Dies he explodes because he is the psyker, then the rubrics would loose psyker.

Or

The psyker dies from perils and does not explode because the entire unit is a psyker, so they unit did not die from a perils there for, you dont take more mortal wounds.

The unit as a whole has the PSYKER keyword. There is no rule anywhere that states this unit can in any circumstances lose that keyword. Therefore it cannot lose that keyword. It's as simple as that.

When the AS perils and dies of perils of the warp, excess MW spill over to the unit. The AS is part of the unit, and MW are never lost. Then the AS explodes and the unit suffers the MW from the explosion.

Zoanthropes are a unit of psykers that has a special clause that Perils explosion only happens when the last model in the unit dies.
This clause would not be needed if this was the default state.

Therefor when the AS dies from perils he will explode.

There’s some crazy rules making-up going on in this thread. If you just follow what’s written and don’t infer things not there it works.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Datasheet specifically says that the Aspiring Sorcerer can attempt to cast powers, not the unit. That tells you all you need to know.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There’s some crazy rules making-up going on in this thread. If you just follow what’s written and don’t infer things not there it works.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Datasheet specifically says that the Aspiring Sorcerer can attempt to cast powers, not the unit. That tells you all you need to know.

Only who casts the powers has no bearing on who is the psyker. The unit is a psyker. Because it has the psyker keyword, and this is the only identifier on who is a psyker, not who can cast the powers.

If you follow what's written as you suggest, you end up in very strange situations.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There’s some crazy rules making-up going on in this thread. If you just follow what’s written and don’t infer things not there it works.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Datasheet specifically says that the Aspiring Sorcerer can attempt to cast powers, not the unit. That tells you all you need to know.

Only who casts the powers has no bearing on who is the psyker. The unit is a psyker. Because it has the psyker keyword, and this is the only identifier on who is a psyker, not who can cast the powers.

If you follow what's written as you suggest, you end up in very strange situations.

Not if you read the Datasheet. The AS is casting, not ‘the unit’.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There’s some crazy rules making-up going on in this thread. If you just follow what’s written and don’t infer things not there it works.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the Datasheet specifically says that the Aspiring Sorcerer can attempt to cast powers, not the unit. That tells you all you need to know.

Only who casts the powers has no bearing on who is the psyker. The unit is a psyker. Because it has the psyker keyword, and this is the only identifier on who is a psyker, not who can cast the powers.

If you follow what's written as you suggest, you end up in very strange situations.

Not if you read the Datasheet. The AS is casting, not ‘the unit’.

It is irrelevant who is casting, when we determine who the psyker is. A psyker is a model with the psyker keyword. This is the rule. So when the aspiring perils, he does take d3 MW. but even if he dies, the psyker is still on the table.

Again i would say refer to the rule of when a psyker dies from perils. If the unit is killed by Perils, he explodes. unless the MW from the perils kills the whole unit, the unit did not die, there for the psyker does not explode.

I dont agree with it, but that the way the rules play out. The unit did not die, there is no way for it to explode

Just incorrect twisting if you ask me. The AS is the Psyker manifesting the power. That the unit has the PSYKER Keyword is irrelevant at this point in time.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Just incorrect twisting if you ask me. The AS is the Psyker manifesting the power. That the unit has the PSYKER Keyword is irrelevant at this point in time.

Agree with this.

It is arguable that the wording is not as tight as it could be, but what you are supposed to do is pretty darn clear in my mind. The AS should take the wounds because he is explicitly the model that is manifesting the power.

I again refer people to the rules for Zoantropes. A unit of models with the Psyker keyword that adds a specific clause that a Perils death does not explode unless the last model dies.
A clause that means that this is not the default.

Rubric Marines have no such exception and therefor the sorcerer will explode when he dies from perils.

 Ordana wrote:
I again refer people to the rules for Zoantropes. A unit of models with the Psyker keyword that adds a specific clause that a Perils death does not explode unless the last model dies.
A clause that means that this is not the default.

Rubric Marines have no such exception and therefor the sorcerer will explode when he dies from perils.

Can't make a decision based on a missing rule. Zoanthropes are zoanthropes and rubrics are rubrics. You can't apply one codexe's ruling to another, especially when the developing teams and authors are different.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I again refer people to the rules for Zoantropes. A unit of models with the Psyker keyword that adds a specific clause that a Perils death does not explode unless the last model dies.
A clause that means that this is not the default.

Rubric Marines have no such exception and therefor the sorcerer will explode when he dies from perils.

Can't make a decision based on a missing rule. Zoanthropes are zoanthropes and rubrics are rubrics. You can't apply one codexe's ruling to another, especially when the developing teams and authors are different.

So in other words you agree with the point he was making? If you can’t infer anything there is no rule for Rubrics saying “only explodes if all die”. So it must be via the normal Perils Rules, and when the AS dies he explodes.

 Ordana wrote:
I again refer people to the rules for Zoantropes. A unit of models with the Psyker keyword that adds a specific clause that a Perils death does not explode unless the last model dies.
A clause that means that this is not the default.

Rubric Marines have no such exception and therefor the sorcerer will explode when he dies from perils.

Wyrdvane Psykers also have this rule:

"If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, it suffers D3 mortal wounds as described in the core rules, but units within 6" will only suffer damage if the Perils of the Warp cases the last model in the manifesting unit to be slain"

It also specifies that "This unit may manifest a psychic power" not that a single model is doing it, but the unit as a whole is manifesting.

The lack of specificity for the Rubrics is a concerning oversight, but it would seem that the intent is that, if only one model in a unit is manifesting, then only that model is the target of the mortal wounds and can explode if they die.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I again refer people to the rules for Zoantropes. A unit of models with the Psyker keyword that adds a specific clause that a Perils death does not explode unless the last model dies.
A clause that means that this is not the default.

Rubric Marines have no such exception and therefor the sorcerer will explode when he dies from perils.

Wyrdvane Psykers also have this rule:

"If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, it suffers D3 mortal wounds as described in the core rules, but units within 6" will only suffer damage if the Perils of the Warp cases the last model in the manifesting unit to be slain"

It also specifies that "This unit may manifest a psychic power" not that a single model is doing it, but the unit as a whole is manifesting.

The lack of specificity for the Rubrics is a concerning oversight, but it would seem that the intent is that, if only one model in a unit is manifesting, then only that model is the target of the mortal wounds and can explode if they die.

The rules for the two units are different because the fluff for the two units are different. Wyrdvanes are all low level psykers, while only the Aspiring Sorceror is a psyker in a Thousand Sons squad.

Exactly, this isn't 3rd edition anymore. Different units have different rules!

Here is another example. The Astra Copywritum codex has a Warlord Trait called Bellowing Voice that says "Add 3" to the range of any abilities
on your Warlord’s datasheet."

The Necron codex has a similar trait, however their version has a clause that means it does not apply to the "Explodes" ability.

Since the Necron one explicitly exempted it, this means by default it would have effected it, thus the Astra Copywritum trait does indeed affect the Explodes ability on Tank Commanders with Bellowing Voice.

The problem is this:

There is no rule that says "If the unit that can cast powers dies due to perils, then it explodes."

Instead there is a rule that says: "If the psyker dies due to perils, it explodes."

If the rubrics don't lose the keyword when the aspiring dies, then the "pskyer" is not dead due to perils, and therefore never explodes.