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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Personally neither of the hellcorged unless it's way the hell outta the way. If they go boom they deal d6 mortal wounds to psyker

Easily mitigated though. I agree there is a slim chance of it happening though.

Kdash wrote:
Quick "this or that" style vote of opinions if pos!

2 Hellforged Contemptors (1 butcher cannon and c-beam on each) OR 1 double butcher Leviathan?

1 x5 SoT squad with Missles OR 1 x10 Rubric with Soulreaper?

I can't seem to make my mind up between the two sets. All options would have a reasonable spot in the army.

I REALLY enjoy C-Beams. There is some loss of flexibility, but they are a murderous weapon when paired with death hex.

As for SoT and Rubrics it depends what you need the unit to do. SoT are safe in the clouds. Rubrics are exposed without a rhino/cover.

 auticus wrote:
It depends on your opinion on what makes something competitive.

For my money, no Thousand Sons will never compete for top tables at Adepticon or LVO. That to me makes them not competitive.

For casual games where everyone isn't trying to bust the game, yes they can be quite fun and hold their own.

Ironically, a list featuring a Thousand Sons detachment recently made 2nd place at Adepticon.

 meleti wrote:

 auticus wrote:
It depends on your opinion on what makes something competitive.

For my money, no Thousand Sons will never compete for top tables at Adepticon or LVO. That to me makes them not competitive.

For casual games where everyone isn't trying to bust the game, yes they can be quite fun and hold their own.

Ironically, a list featuring a Thousand Sons detachment recently made 2nd place at Adepticon.

Out of curiosity does anyone know its makeup?

Iirc it was used to get ahold of their HQS or tzaangors I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I just looked it up nothing has ts at lvo or adepticon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was all elda and death guard mostly

 andrewm9 wrote:

 meleti wrote:

 auticus wrote:
It depends on your opinion on what makes something competitive.

For my money, no Thousand Sons will never compete for top tables at Adepticon or LVO. That to me makes them not competitive.

For casual games where everyone isn't trying to bust the game, yes they can be quite fun and hold their own.

Ironically, a list featuring a Thousand Sons detachment recently made 2nd place at Adepticon.

Out of curiosity does anyone know its makeup?

Yep. It was a Cultist/Poxwalkers list (which got deleted by the FAQ incidentally). The Thousand Sons detachment is there for a Tzaangor bomb and two very powerful psykers in a Daemon Prince and Ahriman.

Huh i missed that but does not surprise me, how ever recent faq correction clarified that tzangors bomb is still doable via dark crystal.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Huh i missed that but does not surprise me, how ever recent faq correction clarified that tzangors bomb is still doable via dark crystal.

Yeah. You can't Warptime them the turn they redeploy, however, which is a big change to how Tzaangors worked, otherwise they can still redeploy like normal using the relic.

Nope you still can, they said that units already deployed are not effected by the beta rule for abilities and powers that allow them to move up the board.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Nope you still can, they said that units already deployed are not effected by the beta rule for abilities and powers that allow them to move up the board.

Just to be clear. Warptime is still not usable by anything that uses a "deepstrike" ability.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Nope you still can, they said that units already deployed are not effected by the beta rule for abilities and powers that allow them to move up the board.

Just to be clear. Warptime is still not usable by anything that uses a "deepstrike" ability.

Not a deep strike ability though, they even said that it does not count if the unit is already deployed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because the warp time rule only is applicable to units arriving from deep strike reserves and the most recent FAQ to the FAQ (heh) said that units deployed on the battlefield then haveoved via abilities don't abide by the deep striking rule for your deployment zone. Since they don't need to abbide that deep strike rule that would imply they don't abide by the warptime one eaither since GW seems to be exluding them from deep strike.

And I mean if I can't no big deal because it's still only an 8 inch charge with banner

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Nope you still can, they said that units already deployed are not effected by the beta rule for abilities and powers that allow them to move up the board.

Just to be clear. Warptime is still not usable by anything that uses a "deepstrike" ability.

Not a deep strike ability though, they even said that it does not count if the unit is already deployed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because the warp time rule only is applicable to units arriving from deep strike reserves and the most recent FAQ to the FAQ (heh) said that units deployed on the battlefield then haveoved via abilities don't abide by the deep striking rule for your deployment zone. Since they don't need to abbide that deep strike rule that would imply they don't abide by the warptime one eaither since GW seems to be exluding them from deep strike.

And I mean if I can't no big deal because it's still only an 8 inch charge with banner

No. They did not say they don't abide by the deepstriking rule. They said they can use the ability to deepstrike, because they were placed on the table first.

In chapter approved
Q: can I cast warptime on a unit that arrived as reinforcements
A:no
And in yheost recent post GW states that units already deployed are not subjected to the deep strike reinforcements rule.
Reinforments are defined in the BRB as units arriving mid game. Your tzaangors on the field are not arriving mid game they are already there

 Backspacehacker wrote:
In chapter approved
Q: can I cast warptime on a unit that arrived as reinforcements
A:no
And in yheost recent post GW states that units already deployed are not subjected to the deep strike reinforcements rule.
Reinforments are defined in the BRB as units arriving mid game. Your tzaangors on the field are not arriving mid game they are already there

Brb faq page 6 at the very top

Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and
then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the
Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having
moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements

You cannot use warptime on the Tzaangors coming in via dark crystal. Also on that very same facebook post you are talking about there is a reply from them on this very topic.

As far as that really affecting much I don't think it matters much. The odds of casting an unmodified warptime is 72.18%. The odds of making an 8 inch charge with a command reroll is roughly 62% The odds of making it with a command reroll and gaze of fate reroll to reroll both dice if need be is 68%. If you are planning to go the dark crystal route you would most likely have not had a sorcerer within range to cast warptime on them anyways so not a huge loss IMO. As far as deep striking them turn 2 onwards with a terminator sorcerer like I used to I can switch out warptime for glamour or weaver now to make them last a bit longer.

However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

No. The TACTICAL RESERVES beta rule applies only to models placed into TACTICAL RESERVES. this is the rule that prevents you from setting up as reinforcements outside your deployment zone turn 1 when you are placed into TACTICAL RESERVES.

The FAQ restriction on movement after being SET UP AS REINFORCEMENTS applies any time you are setting a unit up as reinforcements, regardless of whether they start on the table or not.

They are two different rules, unconnected from each other.

The restriction on movement after deep strike applies EVERY TURN, no matter what kind of ability you use to set up a unit as reinforcements.

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Go read the comments on that facebook post they address this exact situation.

Warhammer 40,000 This is direct from the studio, Logan: 'Treat these units as having arrived from reserves' which really is shorthand for 'these units cannot move again for any reason (including Warptime) and counts as having moved for firing heavy weapons.'.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Go read the comments on that facebook post they address this exact situation.

Warhammer 40,000 This is direct from the studio, Logan: 'Treat these units as having arrived from reserves' which really is shorthand for 'these units cannot move again for any reason (including Warptime) and counts as having moved for firing heavy weapons.'.

Stuff like this only fuels my anger for 8th in that every thing is hap haphazardly posted all over the place, everything is ambiguously written, and nothing can be taken at face value. The sooner 9th comes out the better which hopfully will consolidate all these FAQs and clarifications.

That said, Meh no big deal, still only an 8 inch charge with the horn and you can reroll one if not 2 dice.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Go read the comments on that facebook post they address this exact situation.

Warhammer 40,000 This is direct from the studio, Logan: 'Treat these units as having arrived from reserves' which really is shorthand for 'these units cannot move again for any reason (including Warptime) and counts as having moved for firing heavy weapons.'.

Stuff like this only fuels my anger for 8th in that every thing is hap haphazardly posted all over the place, everything is ambiguously written, and nothing can be taken at face value. The sooner 9th comes out the better which hopfully will consolidate all these FAQs and clarifications.

That said, Meh no big deal, still only an 8 inch charge with the horn and you can reroll one if not 2 dice.

Nothing is ambiguously written in this instance. The rule as written is perfectly clear. People are literally looking at a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED rule as justification for why they can do the thing that the rule obviously says they cannot.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Go read the comments on that facebook post they address this exact situation.

Warhammer 40,000 This is direct from the studio, Logan: 'Treat these units as having arrived from reserves' which really is shorthand for 'these units cannot move again for any reason (including Warptime) and counts as having moved for firing heavy weapons.'.

Stuff like this only fuels my anger for 8th in that every thing is hap haphazardly posted all over the place, everything is ambiguously written, and nothing can be taken at face value. The sooner 9th comes out the better which hopfully will consolidate all these FAQs and clarifications.

That said, Meh no big deal, still only an 8 inch charge with the horn and you can reroll one if not 2 dice.

Nothing is ambiguously written in this instance. The rule as written is perfectly clear. People are literally looking at a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED rule as justification for why they can do the thing that the rule obviously says they cannot.

Ambiguous in the sense they need an FAQ to address the FAQ, i agree with that one facebook post it clarify it and i whole heatedly agree. Its that fact that this was not clear enough when the rule was written, I mean hell, they still have not ever addressed the issue of deathmarks which is still up in the air.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Go read the comments on that facebook post they address this exact situation.

Warhammer 40,000 This is direct from the studio, Logan: 'Treat these units as having arrived from reserves' which really is shorthand for 'these units cannot move again for any reason (including Warptime) and counts as having moved for firing heavy weapons.'.

Stuff like this only fuels my anger for 8th in that every thing is hap haphazardly posted all over the place, everything is ambiguously written, and nothing can be taken at face value. The sooner 9th comes out the better which hopfully will consolidate all these FAQs and clarifications.

That said, Meh no big deal, still only an 8 inch charge with the horn and you can reroll one if not 2 dice.

Nothing is ambiguously written in this instance. The rule as written is perfectly clear. People are literally looking at a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED rule as justification for why they can do the thing that the rule obviously says they cannot.

Ambiguous in the sense they need an FAQ to address the FAQ, i agree with that one facebook post it clarify it and i whole heatedly agree. Its that fact that this was not clear enough when the rule was written, I mean hell, they still have not ever addressed the issue of deathmarks which is still up in the air.

They could have american copyright lawyers writing the rules and the rules would still not be "clear enough" for powergamers on dakka who want to believe that whatever tactic they were using didnt actually get nerfed or removed.

The Salt Mine wrote:

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Go read the comments on that facebook post they address this exact situation.

Warhammer 40,000 This is direct from the studio, Logan: 'Treat these units as having arrived from reserves' which really is shorthand for 'these units cannot move again for any reason (including Warptime) and counts as having moved for firing heavy weapons.'.

Cool, ok, but this annoys me.

Not because of the ruling, but, because the fact that the ruling, has once again, been made in a facebook post comment which 99% of the players likely won’t see.

Things like this are so easy to add into the FAQ document by the person “in the studio” providing the ruling.

A lot of people have already missed the FB post showing 5 examples of rulings on how if you start on the table you can still do certain things, and now this has been completely missed (by at least me, so I can presume many others as well). What else have i/others missed over the past week since the FAQ? There are now nearly 900 comments on the facebook post with the image. I for one am not going to go through all 900 comments every single day looking for clarifications.

/Pedanic Rant

/Rant

However, in another comment referencing a Blood Angel Captain deploying on the table then using Wings of Fire, GW post a reference to the first sentences of their picture update.
It says –

“In the new matched play beta rule for Tactical Reserves, units that aren’t set up on the battlefield during deployment can’t arrive from reserves anywhere outside their deployment zone on the first turn – but this rule doesn’t apply to units that are set up on the battlefield during deployment; these units can still use abilities, Stratagems and psychic powers to put the pressure on their opponents”

So, this to me, reads as “if I start on the table I can use stratagems and psychic powers in consort to put pressure on the opponent”. As such, I could then use a stratagem, or ability, and then still use psychic powers, seemingly without restriction.

However, their intention seems to be that you can’t do this if one of the abilities makes them re-deploy. This only affects Thousand Sons (as far as I’m aware). I personally won't ever be using this anyway as i'm not going to run a Tzaangor horde, but, it is just another occasion of the correct intentions not being stated properly/clearly or accounting for all the aspects of the game (yes, i know this last bit is INCREDIBLY difficult, but, each time a "loophole" is found, it should be added into the official wording to close it off. I would rather have a paragraph detailing how something is meant to work, rather than a single sentence then loads of comments.)

Apparently these aren’t getting added to the FAQ doc dealing with the beta rules, because the comment rulings are also beta rules and thus not “official”…




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:

Kdash wrote:
However, the facebook post would indicate that you can still warptime them, due to them starting the turn on the table.

Go read the comments on that facebook post they address this exact situation.

Warhammer 40,000 This is direct from the studio, Logan: 'Treat these units as having arrived from reserves' which really is shorthand for 'these units cannot move again for any reason (including Warptime) and counts as having moved for firing heavy weapons.'.

Stuff like this only fuels my anger for 8th in that every thing is hap haphazardly posted all over the place, everything is ambiguously written, and nothing can be taken at face value. The sooner 9th comes out the better which hopfully will consolidate all these FAQs and clarifications.

That said, Meh no big deal, still only an 8 inch charge with the horn and you can reroll one if not 2 dice.

Nothing is ambiguously written in this instance. The rule as written is perfectly clear. People are literally looking at a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED rule as justification for why they can do the thing that the rule obviously says they cannot.

Ambiguous in the sense they need an FAQ to address the FAQ, i agree with that one facebook post it clarify it and i whole heatedly agree. Its that fact that this was not clear enough when the rule was written, I mean hell, they still have not ever addressed the issue of deathmarks which is still up in the air.

Another comment on FB clears up the issue of Deathmarks.

They can’t use Ethereal Interception on the first turn outside of their own deployment zone, but, GW said “don’t worry cos people probably won’t be deep striking first turn anyway”.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing i forgot to ask...

Can a unit that gets deployed from a transport then benefit from powers and abilities? Technically they aren't on the table at the start of the turn, but likewise they aren't coming in from "reserve".

Right, because Ethereal Interception sets them up in tactical reserves.

See how the beta rule titled "Beta Rule: Tactical Reserves" only takes effect on units that are deployed in Tactical Reserves?

The rule does not say "Treat the unit as if it has arrived from reserves" like you say in your rant. It says "Treat them as having been set up as Reinforcements."

The "Reinforcements" rule, found on page one of the core rules, says "Typically, this happens at the end of the movement phase, but it can happen in other phases." and then goes on to explain how the unit can't move or advance further as they have used their entire move deploying on the battlefield.

Units arriving from Tactical Reserves are a kind of Reinforcements, kind of like how an Advance is a kind of Move with all the normal restrictions of movement and ADDITIONAL restrictions on top of that. Falling Back is another type of move, as is Charging. All the different types of movement have their own restrictions and exceptions to the basic Movement rules, but unless otherwise specified they are treated the same.

The reason why it is not important for GW to actually publish an entire list of exceptions to the new Tactical Reserve rules is because you can just read and understand that rule and the Reinforcements rule and play the game correctly. The only reason people are asking is because they're hoping GW will give them an extra exception for this rule or that rule so their unit can be more powerful.

We definitely don't see people clamoring to ask GW to clarify all the different types of Moves in the game. Can I move through enemy models or freely within 1" of them if I use the Fire and Fade stratagem? How about if I use the Warptime psychic power? How about if I use the Opportunistic Advance stratagem?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
"One thing i forgot to ask...

Can a unit that gets deployed from a transport then benefit from powers and abilities? Technically they aren't on the table at the start of the turn, but likewise they aren't coming in from "reserve"."

Lets see, maybe we can find an answer to this in the rulebook!

"units that disembark can act normally (Move, shoot, charge, fight, etc) during the remainder of the turn"

No mention of Reinforcements anywhere, or Reserves.