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2018/05/22 23:21:30
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill
blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
ok 1: he isn't better, it's very clear he was working from the emperor's notes. for all we know Cawl was just handed a folder titled "Space Marines MK2" that had been sitting on the emperor's desk.
2: No he's not. nothing we've seen him deploy has been radically better then what the IoM already had. he simply made logical developments of technology that was already there.
3: No true at all, we've only seen Cawl in 2 books thus far. (one being wolfsbane) and he suffered concequences for his "heresy"
4: Cawl is hardly the first nor the last of the admech to play with Xenos tech.
5: only because he's essential right now. that'll change.
6: not being in the public eye is how you avoid notice
7: given blood angel Primaris Marines still have the red thrirst rule I doubt that.
8: Bile's lacked access to the emperor's notes and thus had to learn via trial and error experimentation. given the effects of the warp also likely mean reduced time for him yeah I can see Cawl beating him
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/05/23 00:31:50
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
dudes pretty mary sue... but by far not the worst offender in 40k for that title.
In what manner is he fitting the definition of Mary Sue?
Remember, again: Character you don't like that's kinda powerful =/= Mary Sue
1: better than the Big E at making space marines
2: better than the mechanicum at making gear
3: gets to create new tech without consequences
4: allowed to use xeno tech
5: allowed to make "possible" A.I of himself
6: sat around for 10k years and no one noticed him
7: "cured" all of the problems with various gene seeds
8: better apothecary than Fabulous Bill
blimey the list goes on, but in spite of all this, he still isnt the worst offender, and to throw it back at you, just because you like a character, doesnt mean you cant see its faults... something we havent seen from cawl... yet.
ok 1: he isn't better, it's very clear he was working from the emperor's notes. for all we know Cawl was just handed a folder titled "Space Marines MK2" that had been sitting on the emperor's desk.
2: No he's not. nothing we've seen him deploy has been radically better then what the IoM already had. he simply made logical developments of technology that was already there.
3: No true at all, we've only seen Cawl in 2 books thus far. (one being wolfsbane) and he suffered concequences for his "heresy"
4: Cawl is hardly the first nor the last of the admech to play with Xenos tech.
5: only because he's essential right now. that'll change.
6: not being in the public eye is how you avoid notice
7: given blood angel Primaris Marines still have the red thrirst rule I doubt that.
8: Bile's lacked access to the emperor's notes and thus had to learn via trial and error experimentation. given the effects of the warp also likely mean reduced time for him yeah I can see Cawl beating him
1: thats the point we dont know, so based on what we do know he made better marines out of ???
2: all of the gear we see the marines use is a straight upgrade, and logical developments in technology is also not what the ad mech do, its tech heresy.
3: yes its completely true so far, in the 40k timeline he is making things and not getting hit with the tech heresy bat, cos reasons and guilliman.
4: yep and the others get murdered to death when they dabble, not Cawl though... cos Deus ex!
5: yep totally agree, infact almost all of this is a "lets see what happens next"
6: really? and all those guns being manufactured? marines in stasis? its the bat cave nonsense again, SOMEONE would have noticed.
7: thank god you know the difference lol, so many people think the red thirst is the black rage, anyway, thats a rule mechanic and not supported by the fluff... yet, looking forward to reading it when it is.
8: Bile made a primarch.... but lets be clear here, I dont expect Bile to make primaris, but in the last 10k years I would have expected the greatest apothecary alive to have made something akin to them, but Cawl did....
The problem is Cawl is mainly this, comes from nowhere, massively changes the setting, helping to revive a primarch, creates new weapons, tanks and other tech touched upon in dark imperium... thats pretty mary sue in and of itself in THIS setting, but like I said, I dont think he is the worst offender.
2018/05/23 00:34:28
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
"Read it, multiple times, and again it has ZERO bearing on the primaris project until a link is established (which I think it may be eventually), and shoulda coulda didnt, the emperor did not make them inspite having the ability, knowledge and technology to, but lacking all of these things.... Cawl did do it, so he made better marines than the Emperor, this is a black and white fact, not semantics
"you should read it before debate the book,"
This is something you have claimed before and been wrong on, you have claimed to have read books but displayed only a passing knowledge of what can be found on a wiki, this has lead me to distrust what you claim when you claim it, while i cant say for certain what you have and havent read, your past posts leave me in doubt.
Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
It is absolutely semantics. You stated he was a mary sue because he 'made better marines than the Emperor' meaning he is somehow better than the Emperor, but he isn't because the Emperor 'could' make better marines. You haven't read the book, if you are asking for a quote for that YOU HAVE NOT READ IT. this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol. I don't have the book on me just now but keep an eye on this thread, you'll get inundated with lots of quotes lol
Quote the link between the two or admit its your personal head canon, there is nothing more to be said on the subject as far as im concerned, sorry but I do not trust your word on it, having read the book I already know there is no such link, so I am asking you to prove it, until you do, I will not discuss this further with you.
Found a pdf of the book here is one quote do you want me to continue?
"‘I concur,’ the Master of Mankind said eventually. ‘It is in your nature to cry havoc and wreak the same upon your foes. Yet there is no need for sacrifice. I am reluctant, but you have my trust, Corvus. I will grant you a gift, a very precious gift.’ Once more the Emperor reached out his hand and laid it upon Corax’s head. For an eternity Corax was overwhelmed by the mind of the Emperor. An existence that had spanned more than thirty millennia tried to crowd into the primarch’s thoughts, sending pain searing through him. In a moment the pain had ceased, the imprint upon his memories a shard of what had come before, the tiniest fraction of the Emperor’s being. Still reeling from the psychic onslaught, Corax wondered if this was how the astrotelepaths felt during the Soul Binding, their minds conjoined with the psychic might of the Emperor. Flashes of new memories coursed through his thoughts, blocking out all other sensation, a succession of images burnt into his psyche. The primarch’s body quaked with the sensation, rebelling against the patterns and images thrust into his brain. He could smell the tang of cleansing fluids, and hear the buzz of machines and the hiss of respiration devices. Corax glimpsed metal cylinders with glass viewplates, arranged in a circle at the heart of a clinically sterile chamber, a maze of wires and pumps and tubes splaying from each steel sarcophagus. The primarch did not just see the scene, he was part of it, speaking to a white-coated technician in a language he did not understand. There were other orderlies, with cloth face masks and tight hoods drawn over their heads, their hands gloved in white. Corax walked amongst the incubators, noting at a glance the digital displays plugged into each, satisfied with the life signs beeping and chiming from each device. He felt enormous satisfaction. There was still much to do. The physical bodies were being nourished, their superhuman forms each developing over the genetic matrix inlaid inside each chamber. They were only empty shells though, and the greatest part of the project was yet to come. Their nascent brains were ripe for the template integration. Even as he had these thoughts, Corax did not understand them. More arcane and technical phrases came to him, their meaning lost in the translation to his mind. Yet for all their complexity, the primarch felt on the verge of recognition. Like his brothers, Corax’s intellect was as enhanced as his body and his brain was a vast repository of knowledge, both military and technical. There was something new in there as well, placed at the same time as the memories. In his mind’s eye he saw genetic splicing and hybridisation calculations, and understood now that the Mendelian eukaryotic genesis formula was the first ever successfully cloned human gene-code. He understood the mechanics behind his own creation and marvelled at the ingenuity of the mind that had conceived of them. There were areas that were left blank though, intentionally he assumed. Details of the parts of the Emperor’s own genetic strand that were employed in the creation of the primarchs. Obviously the Emperor did not trust Corax that much. There were other memories too: the dismantling of the laboratory after the strange warp phenomena that had swept away the incubators and scattered them across the galaxy. Corax saw it being reassembled in another place, far from prying eyes. He knew where that place was. Corax realised his eyes were closed and opened them. The Emperor was watching him, waiting patiently for his son to explore the gift he had given him. ‘You have given me the secrets of the primarch project?’said Corax, his voice a whisper of amazement."
Hahahhahahaha, nowhere in there does it show a link, see your making things up again
Yes it does hang on I'll qoute some more then
‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’
‘The primarch genetic coding is vastly more complex than standard Raven Guard gene-seed,’the Apothecary explained. ‘The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from.’ ‘Take this one, sample four, as an indicator,’said the genetor majoris. ‘We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. In all, we have catalogued seven hundred and eighty-three variations between the samples. This leaves the common, core material, the primarch essence for want of a better term, exceptionally small compared to what I expected.’ ‘I see,’said Corax. He knew enough about genetic manipulation to understand the problem they were facing, but even his extensive biological knowledge was insufficient to propose a solution. He stared at the screen for some time, letting the revolving images of different cell helices float into his consciousness. He studied the data tables, absorbing the information without consciously reading it, hoping it would trigger some insight from the Emperor. All he could remember was sadness. It was a struggle to keep motivated, to repeat the research that had taken so many centuries to perfect. All had been swept away by… By what, Corax could not quite remember. The Emperor’s memories were blank on the matter. The primarch concentrated on what had happened after the period of ignorance. There was hope in his heart. His ambition had been misplaced. Rather than create twenty superhuman warriors, he could create thousands, hundreds of thousands of next-generation soldiers. Each would have a fraction of the power of the primarchs, it was true, but their numbers would more than make up for the difference. Corax held an image for a moment, a picture of rank after rank of armoured warriors, fists and banners raised in salute. He would create an army. Something more than an army: a Legion. Intellect fired by his imagination, he set to work with this new goal in mind. There was no need to create this Legion from a single zygotic embryo. Humanity numbered in its billions, just on Terra alone. Through Corax’s thoughts, the Emperor discarded swathes of the primarch genetic data, deemed redundant in light of his new plans. He focused on amending all of his findings from the primarch project, filtering out those abilities and traits that could only be gene-bred from inception, concentrating on transferable, implantable genetic strands. The primarch latched onto those memories, delving deeper. As he did so, Corax edged Sixx aside and pulled a touch-screen interface closer. Hesitantly at first, he began to tap the screen, navigating his way through the mass of coded information. His fingers picked up speed as the memories came faster and faster. Fingertips dancing over the screen, Corax delved into the intricacies of the primarch genes, separating out those sequences and proteins discarded by the Emperor, following in his creator’s remembered footsteps. The shifting displays and tables blurred as the primarch continued, isolating gene-fragments and cell duplication segments, tossing some aside, moving others into a separate partition. For five minutes he worked at furious pace, linking unconscious recall to conscious action. Orlandriaz had moved up beside him at some point and was staring at the flow of information spreading across the screens, nodding ferociously while he muttered to himself. Corax stopped, taking a deep breath as he straightened. ‘Masterful,’ whispered Orlandriaz. ‘Perhaps if you could spare us five more minutes, lord, we could solve the whole problem,’said Sixx, grinning broadly. ‘If only it were that simple,’said Corax. He had not worked out anything, simply remembered it. The Emperor had never attempted to create what Corax sought, and so there was no base of knowledge for him to recall. ‘That still leaves you with seventy-two different gene-strands to analyse.’ ‘A moment, please,’said Orlandriaz, laying his hand on Corax’s arm as the primarch turned away. Corax glanced down in annoyance at the magos’s clutching fingers, noticing that the tech-priest’s fingernails looked to be made of a dull bronze. Realising his error, Nexin took his hand away and nodded his head in apology. ‘Forgive me, Lord Corax,’said the magos. ‘Whilst taking a break from our analystical studies, the Chief Apothecary and I engaged in a debate that was without resolution. I seek your opinion on the matter.’ ‘What debate?’ asked Corax, darting a look at Sixx, who was frowning at his companion. ‘It is my belief that your plans could be taken a stage further,’said the magos. ‘It is out of the question,’said Sixx, making a cutting motion with his hand. ‘It is against our every principle.’ ‘What is?’said Corax. ‘It seems that we might actually make our task easier if we were to incept the project from an initial cellular generation, rather than hybridisation of an existing organism.’ ‘Cloning,’snapped Sixx. ‘The magos thinks we should clone new warriors from scratch rather than modify the gene-seed for implantation. I reminded him that there are many more complications associated with such a process, not to mention the problems it will create in the future.’ ‘Your arguments were irrational,’said Orlandriaz, scowling back at the Chief Apothecary. ‘Emotive.’ ‘Every possibility must be explored,’said Corax. He raised a hand to silence a protest from Sixx. A passing thought of the Emperor had surfaced in his mind, a philosophical point his creator had concluded when the primarchs had been taken from him. ‘With that said, direct cloning must be considered only as a final option if there is no other solution. Magos, there is good reason why the Emperor did not directly clone his new Legions from a single template cell. The resultant legionaries would be identical. Without the random mutation present in the wider human genetic structure, there is no possibility for variation. The Legiones Astartes are successful because we are similar, but not identical. Qualities such as leadership, intellect and aptitude for different disciplines allow us to be flexible and to fulfil many roles. ‘Even the primarchs were not created equal in all measures. The Emperor understood the importance of variation. Beyond that, there is another consideration. The Legiones Astartes are humanity’s warriors, separated and superior in many ways, but always raised up from amongst those they lead and protect. A legionary may be a neo-human, but he was once human. A legionary is the incarnation of the Emperor’s plan, a perfect symbol and example for mankind to aspire to, not simply a tool of war. It is humanity that the Emperor will lead in the conquest of the galaxy, not some new species made to order in a laboratory.’ ‘Thank you, lord,’said Sixx, with a sidelong look at Orlandriaz. ‘More eloquent than I could ever phrase it.’ ‘I understand your position and reasoning,’said the magos. ‘I will comply with your direction.’ ‘Make it work,’said Corax. ‘That perfect symbol has been tarnished by Horus. I would see it shine brightly again.
‘Reactions and strength are better than a matured legionary,’said Branne. ‘I’ve never seen anything like it.’ ‘Which is fine for unarmoured, unarmed combat,’ replied Corax. ‘Those advantages will be much reduced when they have their power armour.’ ‘I’ve been thinking about that, lord,’said Branne, eyes fixed on the two warriors sparring. ‘The new Mark VI suits… They’re far superior to anything else we have, except for a few artificer suits for officers, and even they’re pretty bashed up. We can’t implant the experience and guile of a veteran into these men, but the new armour and their advanced systems would go some way to helping with that.’ ‘I was thinking the same,’said the primarch. ‘These are not just recruits, they are the start of something new for the Legion. I have told Sixx to progress with another one hundred implantations. If we can successfully scale up, you’ll have a fighting force within fifty days. Commander of Recruits doesn’t seem to reflect your role properly.’ Branne glanced at his leader. ‘You said this would be a combat force when you gave me the title, lord.’ ‘They need a name, Branne,’said Corax. ‘We can’t keep calling them recruits, but it isn’t right that they simply get absorbed by Agapito’s Talons.’ ‘I have a suggestion,’said Branne. ‘Then share it, commander.’ ‘We have the Talons, Falcons and Hawks, lord. I think we should be the Raptors.’ ‘The Raptors?’ Corax smiled and placed a massive hand on Branne’s shoulder. ‘Yes, that will suit perfectly. Swift hunters. You are the Commander of the Raptors now. I’ll inform Agapito, Solaro and Aloni.’ With a grunt and a thud, the legiona
There, see you haven't read it.
tl;dr c
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/23 00:45:36
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2018/05/23 00:44:05
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
The ravenguard use the primarch goo to create enhanced space marines, they are stronger, faster and tougher than the standard astartes, the process is also a hell of a lot faster, creating marines in days/weeks where it would otherwise take years.
This process uses an enhanced geneseed, where as the primaris project uses several new organs in addition to the standard suit of marine organs to make primaris, the primaris process also takes the standard amount of time to create a marine as far as we know so far, it can also apparently be used to make standard marines primaris but we havent got any fluff examples of this so far.
Delvarus seems to think that this process is the same, where as I disagree, he also seems to think the primaris project and the ravenguard project are connected, where as I disagree as they are clearly not connected.
long story short.
2018/05/23 00:47:57
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Yeah I sorta got the vibe that he had nothing to back his claim, why else post such long and boring text instead of on-point quote.
Anyway spent way too much time fixing that stupid quote pile but now I'm pretty proud of myself.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2018/05/23 01:00:08
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah I sorta got the vibe that he had nothing to back his claim, why else post such long and boring text instead of on-point quote.
Anyway spent way too much time fixing that stupid quote pile but now I'm pretty proud of myself.
And Formosa isn't telling you the whole thing.
Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
2. The Emperor knew they could be improved upon in the first place and that this batch was for The Great Crusade
3. We have multiple examples of improved Space Marines, though with drawbacks due to the circumstances they were made.
4. So it really isn't out of place Cawl can't make improves Space Marines
5. Therefore Formosa can check off the part that making Space Marines better makes him a Mary Sue
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/23 01:19:30
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2018/05/23 01:36:52
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
True but at the same time, we know the Raven Guards failure was due to the Alpha Legion mucking it up wasn't it? What we know about thge project is that, granted access to the primarch genetic information, it is possiable to improve upon space Marines.
We know for a fact Cawl had access to SOME of the primarch genetic data. (one of the organs is directly based on a primarch organ) so it's proably fair that a dedicated biologist can do what a team of apocatharies did with the same information.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/05/23 01:37:13
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
Only because of the settings each of those attempts were done in. A little bit of context is needed there.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/05/23 01:41:08
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yeah I sorta got the vibe that he had nothing to back his claim, why else post such long and boring text instead of on-point quote.
Anyway spent way too much time fixing that stupid quote pile but now I'm pretty proud of myself.
And Formosa isn't telling you the whole thing.
Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
2. The Emperor knew they could be improved upon in the first place and that this batch was for The Great Crusade
3. We have multiple examples of improved Space Marines, though with drawbacks due to the circumstances they were made.
4. So it really isn't out of place Cawl can't make improves Space Marines
5. Therefore Formosa can check off the part that making Space Marines better makes him a Mary Sue
1: No he doesnt.
"Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for it"
2: And? were talking about Cawl and your made up connection to Ravenguard enhanced marines.
3: no we dont, we have multiple examples of failed experiments and sabotage to make better marines.
4: yes it is, it breaks one of the mainstays of the setting, that the creation of space marines was only something the emperor could have done and others had tried but ultimately have failed, but not cawl... for reasons.
5: therefore I maintain the same position that I have maintained throughout, Cawl is a bit mary sue, Primaris project and Ravenguard enhanced marines are NOT connected.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Formosa claimed that Cawl came out of nowhere and made better Space Marines than the Emperor, when there are issues with that statement:
1. He implies Space Marines can't really be improved upon
It used to be that every attempt ended up disaster and that was very, very fitting for the setting and Cawl broke that rule so yeah I get why Formosa would see it that way.
True but at the same time, we know the Raven Guards failure was due to the Alpha Legion mucking it up wasn't it? What we know about thge project is that, granted access to the primarch genetic information, it is possiable to improve upon space Marines.
We know for a fact Cawl had access to SOME of the primarch genetic data. (one of the organs is directly based on a primarch organ) so it's proably fair that a dedicated biologist can do what a team of apocatharies did with the same information.
Yep, and I have no issue with that, I have just maintained that the two projects had nothing to do with each other, the primarch goo on deliverence was destroyed as was any data that they gained from it, only the Alpha legion have it now, which is a loose end that needs tying up in the heresy series.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 01:45:45
2018/05/23 03:52:23
Subject: Re:Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
I suppose it's possiable that a HH novel could end up tying that lose end and also bringing the Primaris project forward. Cawl's part in Wolfsbane has him fleeing a station, I suppose the next time we see him he runs afoul of the Alpha Legion and flees after he steels their "raptor project" DNA. I do have a hunch we're going to see Cawl apper more often. He DOES need to be fleshed out a bit.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/05/23 05:35:49
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Formosa wrote: Phew, long read, once again, nothing linking it to cawl and the primaris project.
I never said anything about Cawl and the Primarch project and neither did you. You are lying again, you said 'a link between the Deliverence lost enhanced marines and the Primarch project'. I even said "The emperor used the Primarch project to make the marines, what did Corax use... the Primarch project obviously." if you were actually talking about Cawl then you would have said so every time I said Corax and Diliverence lost. again you are proven wrong so you change your argument... pathetic.
The ravenguard use the primarch goo to create enhanced space marines, they are stronger, faster and tougher than the standard astartes, the process is also a hell of a lot faster, creating marines in days/weeks where it would otherwise take years.
This process uses an enhanced geneseed, where as the primaris project uses several new organs in addition to the standard suit of marine organs to make primaris, the primaris process also takes the standard amount of time to create a marine as far as we know so far, it can also apparently be used to make standard marines primaris but we havent got any fluff examples of this so far.
Delvarus seems to think that this process is the same, where as I disagree, he also seems to think the primaris project and the ravenguard project are connected, where as I disagree as they are clearly not connected.
long story short.
You haven't even read the book and you are continuing to talk like you have.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/23 07:11:30
2018/05/23 08:12:41
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2018/05/23 09:15:01
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
BrianDavion wrote: True but at the same time, we know the Raven Guards failure was due to the Alpha Legion mucking it up wasn't it?
Something that we learned much later than the original introduction of the failed Raven Guard super marines, and imho the version where it just failed without explanation was better for the tone.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2018/05/23 09:33:27
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/23 09:38:04
2018/05/23 10:25:49
Subject: Re:Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
BrianDavion wrote: I suppose it's possiable that a HH novel could end up tying that lose end and also bringing the Primaris project forward. Cawl's part in Wolfsbane has him fleeing a station, I suppose the next time we see him he runs afoul of the Alpha Legion and flees after he steels their "raptor project" DNA. I do have a hunch we're going to see Cawl apper more often. He DOES need to be fleshed out a bit.
Yeah I also think its a possibility and Cawl does indeed need to be fleshed out, at the moment he is just a plot device to hand wave things into the setting, but I am looking foward to seeing exactly how he achieved some of the things he has.
Formosa wrote: Phew, long read, once again, nothing linking it to cawl and the primaris project.
I never said anything about Cawl and the Primarch project and neither did you. You are lying again, you said 'a link between the Deliverence lost enhanced marines and the Primarch project'. I even said "The emperor used the Primarch project to make the marines, what did Corax use... the Primarch project obviously." if you were actually talking about Cawl then you would have said so every time I said Corax and Diliverence lost. again you are proven wrong so you change your argument... pathetic.
The ravenguard use the primarch goo to create enhanced space marines, they are stronger, faster and tougher than the standard astartes, the process is also a hell of a lot faster, creating marines in days/weeks where it would otherwise take years.
This process uses an enhanced geneseed, where as the primaris project uses several new organs in addition to the standard suit of marine organs to make primaris, the primaris process also takes the standard amount of time to create a marine as far as we know so far, it can also apparently be used to make standard marines primaris but we havent got any fluff examples of this so far.
Delvarus seems to think that this process is the same, where as I disagree, he also seems to think the primaris project and the ravenguard project are connected, where as I disagree as they are clearly not connected.
long story short.
You haven't even read the book and you are continuing to talk like you have.
"When Corax worked on the Primarch project they realised that they could make better marines. The Emperor made marines for the great crusade and only for that, he made them tailored for a reason, to take the galaxy, he knew how to make better marines, he just made what he needed to make. Its all in Deliverence lost."
"Deliverence lost has 'everything' to do with the Primarch project, you should read it before debate the book, most of the book was about it."
"this isn't some small fact that you might forget lol the whole bloody book is about that lol"
Ah quotes are a wonderful thing.
"Coraxs project having anything to do with Cawls project is not supported by any fluff yet, so I dont see how that has any bearing at all, and yes marines were made for a reason, but as soon as it became apparent that things were not going to plan with them, why didnt he fire out some primaris to deal with the heresy? he had 10 years, just to be clear, deliverance lost has ZERO bearing on the primaris project, those marines were NOT primaris marines and something completely different (lacking the organs for starters). "
"Post a quote that directly links the primaris project and the deliverence lost enhanced marines or admit that its just your head canon, which I might agree is a possibility, there is no evidence for."
To which you still have not supplied and answer to, I have been consistent throughout, you however have tried to form a link between two things that have no link other than in your head canon, you have even posted quotes that show you to be wrong but still try to maintain that you are correct, this is pretty standard behaviour for you though, passing off wrong information and resorting to insults and tantrums when others refuse to accept your nonsense.
You have proved nothing and continue to prove nothing and have resorted to the "nuh uh, you are" defence that you resorted to last time, this is why I so easily dismiss whayever you say, notice how I dont talk to others in the same manner I talk to you, even when they disagree with me, its because I trust their word on the subject, not you though, you have a track record of making things up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 10:36:52
2018/05/23 10:41:37
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
I like how "He could have made the Space Marines better but he didn't because he just needed to conquer the whole galaxy with them, so no need to go for the best possible version" is an actual argument in this discussion .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2018/05/23 10:47:39
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I like how "He could have made the Space Marines better but he didn't because he just needed to conquer the whole galaxy with them, so no need to go for the best possible version" is an actual argument in this discussion .
And its in Deliverence lost, so I don't know why you 'like' that. The Emperor didn't plan on having marines after the great crusade, they were most likely going to end up diplomats, enforcers etc or go the way of the thunder warriors so you wouldn't want to make them too strong if you plan on taking them out in the future. The emperor didn't know there would be an eternal war when he made the legions, they were a means to an end. Plus he made the Primarchs, its safe to assume that he could make better marines if he can create them.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/23 11:02:55
2018/05/23 11:27:33
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Wasn't confirmed in the Warmaster that both Space Marines and Primarchs were designed to fail and to die after the horus heresy? The ones that survive, of course.
The Space Marines are not the "Emperor bests", those are the Custodes. And even the Custodes are just tools for the Emperor, Space Marines are nothing more than ants to him. Hes playing a RTS agaisnt Chaos. He made space marines has how he needed them. Mass produced super soldiers. Cawl didn't improved the Emperor's best work. He improved one work that had a big room for improvement and never was actually that "good" of a work by Emperor standards.
Both Primarchs and Custodes are much better than space marines, and they where made by the emperor much earlier.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2018/05/23 12:47:02
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Galas wrote: Wasn't confirmed in the Warmaster that both Space Marines and Primarchs were designed to fail and to die after the horus heresy? The ones that survive, of course.
The Space Marines are not the "Emperor bests", those are the Custodes. And even the Custodes are just tools for the Emperor, Space Marines are nothing more than ants to him. Hes playing a RTS agaisnt Chaos. He made space marines has how he needed them. Mass produced super soldiers. Cawl didn't improved the Emperor's best work. He improved one work that had a big room for improvement and never was actually that "good" of a work by Emperor standards.
Both Primarchs and Custodes are much better than space marines, and they where made by the emperor much earlier.
Exactly, didn't even think about the custodes.
2018/05/23 13:11:10
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2018/05/23 13:32:39
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2018/05/23 13:34:18
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
They/them
2018/05/23 13:35:09
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
You don't find anything funny in some guy saying "Meh, I don't need to do this very well, I mean I just need to conquer the whole galaxy after all!" ?
The Big E was a bean counter, a This is just enough if nothing goes wrong but nothing went wrong the first time kind of guy.
Shame he didn't make contingency plans.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
2018/05/23 14:51:55
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/23 14:54:45
2018/05/23 14:59:52
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Crazyterran wrote: Considering Cawl didnt get made Fabricator General, isnt trusted even by Guilliman, his biggest benefactor, amd isnt liked at all by the Admech as far as we can tell, I dont think he quite qualifies as a mary sue.
Guilliman doesnt qualify as a mary sue either, people are just butt hurt that he was first. He was the only one other than the Lion with easy access to step in and get the ball rolling, and is a good character for all of the others to play off of in some way when they return.
I mean, Dark Imperium still has a few inquisitors and higher ups not believing hes real, despite literally stepping off his stasis throne. The Imperium has dealt with false Primarchs in the past, after all.
The Ultramarines can come off as mary sues if you look at them purely from a Codex: Space Marines perspective, but other Codexes see them get beaten or out maneuvered, and other chapters not getting along with them (an Iron Snakes story ends with a fist fight between the Iron Snakes and Ultramarines captain!).
Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium. I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition. Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
So, it’s not a Mary Sue move, it’s boring and uninspired. Which, is at least a subjective opinion which you are fine to have, but he doesn’t meet the definition of Mary Sue. You can see it earlier in the thread. Stop throwing out phrases you don’t actually understand.
I would love to see the Khan cutting off some EC champions head while riding a giant ass jet bike, but if it’s not one of the big four chaos or loyalist legions I’m not holding my breath for a Primarch model. Maybe one of the others will replace Sanguinius, but if the Emperor can bring back fire ghost Ferrus Manus, I could see some kind of crazy Sanguinius thing. Unfortunately.
I do know what Mary Sue means, you don't. You think it means an army or character you don't like = Mary Sue. I said Girlyman coming back first is a Mary Sue move, I already stated that I don't think he is a Mary Sue.
Delvarus Centurion wrote:Girlyman coming back first is such a mary sue move, you are obviously going to say its not as you are an Ultramarines player but come on, they are the poster boys, total mary sues in the lore. Girlyman coming back is so obvious and unoriginal, it would have been so much more interesting if it was any of the others, maybe not the Lion as he is also very much suited to lead and could lead the Imperium.
Guilliman coming back made the most sense because it was established as quite possible, but not "obvious".
Him and the Lion have been actually in realspace this whole time, and their location has been established for several editions. This is unlike any other Loyalist Primarch, and therefore introducing any of them first essentially defeats dramatic principle - their return needs to be anticipated, then resolved. With Guilliman and Lion, their returns are anticipated organically, and the reader can feel invested, because they know what's going on.
With the others, their locations and even statuses are unknown. For them to come out of the blue would be an un-anticipated action, leaving the resolution flat. You shouldn't just introduce characters out of the blue like that - and that is a large issue with Cawl. He came out of nowhere and did stuff - stuff which could be done in universe, but because he was new and unanticipated, it trumps narrative principle.
I'd like to see the underdog come back first, the Khan or Vulkan as he was so altruistic, I'd love to see what he'd make of the Inquisition.
Vulkan DID come back first. Beast Awakens. Guess what? He does absolutely nothing, and refuses to let the Salamanders know he's come back, and defers authority to Lord Commander of the Imperium Koorland, a basic Space Marine.
Or Russ because I'd love to see how him metting Lukas would turn out, hilarity would ensue. Any of the living Primarchs could have come back first, not just Girlyman or the Lion.
On the contrary, they'd be the best two candidates. Get one of them in to stabilise the situation, and then introduce someone else to act as a potential foil. However, I don't think that the Primarchs would be THAT antagonistic to eachother. We saw what happened between Lion and Guilliman in the Imperium Secundus, and they both were able to come to an agreement (until Kurze revealed Lion's hidden troops), and even Russ, who I believe was still present when Guilliman was Lord Commander, still served under him (even if he didn't follow the Codex).
I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium. Whether they are in real space or not is irrelevant, Girlyman was brought in as an Ex Machina, all the Primarchs coming back are, their return doesn't have to be anticipated at all, plus Girlyman was brought out of his coma from nowhere, suddenly the eldar come and save him, palease.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/05/23 15:25:11
2018/05/23 15:22:11
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/05/23 19:25:58
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I meant obvious as in, the Ultramarines are the poster boys so obviously they'd bring Girlyman back and have him be the leader of the Imperium.
Well, of course if a Primarch like Guilliman came back, one who is a noted leader and statesman, it's perfectly logical he'd be leader of the Imperium. That's not a bad thing.
The main thing that I think you're fixated on is the fact it was Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, who came back, not that they became leader of the Imperium (a role which has been filled by regular Space Marines, I might add, and which Guilliman has occupied before.
You say Ultramarines are the poster boys - they're the poster boys in that it's their colour scheme which is used for everything. Ward's fluff is behind us. But frankly, even if we were to change the colour schemes on the front of every box, and then make another Chapter the face of the brand (and let's face it, every brand has one - even Stormcast have a favoured Stormhost over the others - do you see people kicking up a fuss there?), I can guarantee there'd still be people complaining it was the Ultramarines.
Frankly, if the Ultramarines get any kind of recognition, even if it makes logical sense, people will complain because "it's the Ultramarines".
Whether they are in real space or not is irrelevant, Girlyman was brought in as an Ex Machina, all the Primarchs coming back are, their return doesn't have to be anticipated at all, plus Girlyman was brought out of his coma from nowhere, suddenly the eldar come and save him, palease.
Actually, no.
Dramatic and narrative principle in general is opposed to the idea of characters just returning out of the blue, with no indication or hinting. It's akin to Chekov's Gun - if the gun is shown, it will be fired. We are shown the positions and statuses of Lion and Guilliman. One of them would return. Hence, Chekov's Gun.
With all the others, especially ones who went into the Warp, it would literally be a case of "they came out of the Warp one day". There's no suspsense, no building tension, no stakes - they just pop out and they're there again.
Guilliman was hardly a Deus-Ex Machina - the methods used to bring him back had been established in prior books, with Ynnead's rebrith being heralded with the Death Masque release some time before. Plus, bringing Guilliman back was a struggle in and of itself - not just a "he woke up no problems".
The reason why Guilliman was brought back was obvious from previous books and the motives of the Ynnari: they want to use humanity as a blocking force, with Guilliman bolstering a faltering Imperium. It's in character, and foreshadowed in a lot of recent Eldar material, especially Fracturing of Biel-Tan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: Want to cut down the text walls people?
Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.
Guilliman was never dead. He was moments from it, but he'd never died. Given that he was alive, his body's location known, and him being probably the most reliable and sympathetic Primarch that the Eldar could rely on to bolster the Imperium whilst they save the Eldar, Guilliman was a solid pick.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 19:27:40
They/them
2018/05/23 19:45:05
Subject: Belisarius Cawl a saint? (Spoilers to Wolfsbane)
ProwlerPC wrote: Not sure if the admech uses the 'saint' title or not but I thought saints require 3 performed miracles that's recognized by their church. Cawl is more like Mary Sue''s ham and cheese sandwich then a saint.
This cawl is the wrost thing to come outta 40k in a long time. Through the power of hand wavium he broke a metric ass ton of imperial laws and performed the same work that the 3rd legion went chaos over. Dude it's a saint Mary Sue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: Want to cut down the text walls people?
Guilliman wasn't the most logical choice to bring back either seeing as he was dead. You may as well have gone with Sanguinius. The most logical choice was the Lion. Alive so Eldar don't turn dumb and easily revealed by Azrael getting a vision from Emps or something similar.
This, to this day the lion is rheost practical and logical to bring back because it's literally a case of
"Hey look what I found in the basement while I was moving stuff around!"
Lion has the least amount of stipulation to be coming back. Also would have been better for the imperium in it's current states. The lion leads from the front guliman is more of a statesmen
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 19:47:20
