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 Peregrine wrote:

meleti wrote:
Yeah, because appreciating a quick list building system means you must be really bad at math.

It does when the other list building system, which is more accurate in evaluating the strength of a unit, is effectively just as fast if you are competent at basic math. Adding 5 + 3 + 10 + 3 + 4 + 7 isn't meaningfully faster than adding 50 + 150 + 120 + 45 + 15, especially when you're pulling out your phone and adding up both sets of numbers on the calculator.

You’re making a value judgment here, preferring “accurate strength evaluations” over quick list building and ease of play. Other people with different preferences make different value judgements.

meleti wrote:
You’re making a value judgment here, preferring “accurate strength evaluations” over quick list building and ease of play. Other people with different preferences make different value judgements.

No, I'm stating that the supposed advantages of "quick list building and ease of play" are virtually nonexistent, assuming basic competence at math. It isn't "quick list building" if it doesn't actually save you any meaningful amount of time in list construction.

 Peregrine wrote:

meleti wrote:
You’re making a value judgment here, preferring “accurate strength evaluations” over quick list building and ease of play. Other people with different preferences make different value judgements.

No, I'm stating that the supposed advantages of "quick list building and ease of play" are virtually nonexistent, assuming basic competence at math. It isn't "quick list building" if it doesn't actually save you any meaningful amount of time in list construction.

What’s quicker, figuring out the points value of every model in your list with all their wargear, or just looking up power levels and reading the two lines that tell you how much more power level expanding the unit takes?

Ushtarador wrote:
I don't have premade lists for these types of games.

That's your problem, not mine. I'm always listhammering away at my computer, slow as it is, when I have free time. If you're bringing models to a store, you should already be prepared for different point levels like you would Power Levels. The difference is one is literally the worst system in the planet because you're incompetent if you decide NOT to take upgrades because they're free.

 Peregrine wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
Honestly pl are for homebrew games. If you feel 8pl is too much for 10 men engineer squads then just pay 6pl for them instead, and tell your opponent why you did so if they care.

What's the point in having army construction rules at all if you're just going to ignore them and bring whatever models you feel like taking, change any point costs you don't like, and assume that your opponent may not even care that you cheated and took an illegal list? I could almost understand if you discussed the issue with them before creating a list and understood that the answer is likely "no", but making the change and presenting it to them as a finished decision that they may or may not care about? that.


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 ArbitorIan wrote:
TBH, I don't mind using power level for fun games at my gaming club - both players know each other, neither of us is going to abuse it, and even if we do end up with mismatched armies it's only one game. I have issues with it in this setting, even if it is a Narrative event, since we all know that there are always dicks who bring optimised armies to 'fun' events. So, you at least want to know that your fun, narrative army isn't going to get removed from the table by turn 2!

All of what you describe can be done just as well by the conventional point system. Power levels, even when they don't actively make the game terrible, are completely redundant.

Look. Every game of 40k isn't life or death serious. The point of power level is to be able to throw together a couple of lists on the fly. Its way quicker to just count model amounts instead of every wargear options for the units. The OP is going to a fun event using power level. There are probably no "illegal lists", they just assume people play with the intent of having some fun and fair games. Its strange you can only almost understand how just changing the pl cost in question is a relevant solution to the issue.

As soon as people start maxing out upgrades and play to win hard the system falls apart even if you follow the rules. PL demands alot more from the players to keep the games roughly balanced.

Which means it's a bad system.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means it's a bad system.

Bad for some purposes, good for others.

Gitdakka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means it's a bad system.

Bad for some purposes, good for others.

The moment you HAVE to say "It's good AS LONG AS..." you lost.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means it's a bad system.

Bad for some purposes, good for others.

The moment you HAVE to say "It's good AS LONG AS..." you lost.

Onion is good as long as you don't eat them with ice cream

Or golfballs are good as long as you dont use them for soccer games

I dunno slayer.-fan, seems you could say this about most things in life.

Gitdakka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Which means it's a bad system.

Bad for some purposes, good for others.

The moment you HAVE to say "It's good AS LONG AS..." you lost.

Onion is good as long as you don't eat them with ice cream

Or golfballs are good as long as you dont use them for soccer games

I dunno slayer.-fan, seems you could say this about most things in life.

That's literally apples and oranges. A better example might be:
Our golf balls are good as long as you dont use them on ranges with sand traps

A non-waterproof watch works perfectly fine as long as you don't hold it underwater.
Power level work perfectly fine as long as you don't try to build the most competitive list possible.

I could keep this up for days

Yeah, the advantages of PL are pretty negligible. About the ONLY advantage they have is that the PL is on the datasheet, while points are in the back.

Note that that was not always the case-points used to be right on the datasheet. In other words, GW made points more annoying to use to make PL seem better.

Nah, points make more sense now as you can be replacing equipment you were originally paying at the base price. There's a few issues with a few of the free weapons but otherwise it is pretty great.

Oh, so this went from a query to yet another ‘let’s rag on how others play’ thread... guys, the POWER SUX argument is amply played out in other threads. Let’s not repeat it yet again?

Ah once more some people think that because they prefer A EVERYBODY prefer A and idea that others aren't playing same way is alien.

Then they use such terms as "balance" while arquing why points are great when whole point of point system isnt' balance. Points have their usages but balance is NOT meant to be one. In fact first thing you need to do if you want balanced game is remove point systems(and yes this also includes power level). The second you use any kind of point system you can be 100% sure you aren't aiming for balanced game. Points aren't for that.

Agreed. We’re back at ‘if it isn’t PEFECT then it’s RUBBISH and has NO PLACE in ANY GAME EVER.

Absolutist trash.

So. I’ve had loads of fun games with PL. it’s the standard casual/pickup way of building an army at my (mostly casual) club. If you’re playing someone new, going to event, or being ‘competitive’, use points.

The advantage of PL is that it’s quick to build an army. It’s faster than using points. That’s the advantage. You can say you’d rather use points but you can’t really say it’s useless - it has a use and it works for that use.

The disadvantage is that it’s less granular and so requires the players not to be dicks (and thus works best when you know each other).

I don’t think it’s appropriate for an event where you don’t know all the people.

Saying ‘PL is trash’ again and again adds nothing to the discussion. Points are trash when you’re short on time.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
Agreed. We’re back at ‘if it isn’t PEFECT then it’s RUBBISH and has NO PLACE in ANY GAME EVER.

That's a pretty bad straw man. The problem is not that it isn't perfect, neither point system is perfect (and we shouldn't be surprised, given GW's history). The problem with PL is that it's worse than the other point system and offers nothing in return. And that's a pretty good definition of a system that is trash and has no place in any game ever.

Points are trash when you’re short on time.

Hardly. Once you've played a few games with a faction making a list with conventional points does not take meaningfully longer than making one with power points. You're still adding up point costs for each of your units, usually starting with a standard core of units that you always use, and then flipping through your codex/collection looking for something to fill the last few points. And if you're so short on time that the difference between spending 3 minutes adding up a list and 5 minutes adding up a list is significant then how can you possibly have enough time to finish a 2-3 hour game of 40k?


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tneva82 wrote:
Then they use such terms as "balance" while arquing why points are great when whole point of point system isnt' balance. Points have their usages but balance is NOT meant to be one. In fact first thing you need to do if you want balanced game is remove point systems(and yes this also includes power level). The second you use any kind of point system you can be 100% sure you aren't aiming for balanced game. Points aren't for that.

Nonsense. A well-designed point system offers the best realistic chance of a balanced game, and removing it almost guarantees an unbalanced mess that nobody has any fun with. Balancing a game in the absence of a point system requires iterative playtesting, playing through the exact same game multiple times and adjusting the forces each time until you come to a pair of lists that consistently get a 50/50 win rate. And that is pure fantasy for 99.9999% of players. Hardly anyone is going to spend countless hours playing 50+ iterations of a single game before they can play the "real" match. So the only option left is a point system.

Just out of interest, when was PL introduced?

Back in 3rd in my local GW, we played unbalanced games and it was fun actually

Rybrook wrote:
Just out of interest, when was PL introduced?

Back in 3rd in my local GW, we played unbalanced games and it was fun actually

8th edition.

For what it's worth, I find Power Levels to be better for me. I wouldn't ever say someone's wrong for not using them, but for me and what I want, I like them.

I played a 4v4 game with the majority of people going having never played the game before. We settled on 24 power for each person, rocked up to WHW, and rolled dice. We all enjoyed it just fine, and there wasn't a massive imbalance in the points.

For me, power level is quite simple because I'm not going to be changing my army much. I play my units WYSIWYG all the time, so micromanaging squad upgrades I'm already going to be taking is pointless. I know I have X many squads, so I'll just pay for X many squads. Could I pre-write all my lists with each unit having a pre-written points value? Yeah, absolutely, but at that point, if that flamer on my ten man Tactical Squad is always going to be there, and won't be cut from the list, what's the point in having more granular measurements of my army?

It gives me a reason to model some of the more esoteric and fun, cool weapons on units which I'd never take normally because they might be point sinks - a power fist and plasma pistol on a Devastator Sergeant? Probably won't get used, but it looks cool, and it makes sense for a Space Marine Sergeant to be able to take those kinds of weapons.

I know I won't convince anyone here, but Power Level is, in some opinions, a more relaxed and open way of constructing lists, which some people prefer in different situations.