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 Frozen Ocean wrote:
What if Initiative existed as it used to, but electing to Overwatch automatically reduces the firer to effectively I0 in that they must go last?

EDIT: Could be interesting if Characters chose whether or not to Overwatch independent of their squad; e.g. a Space Marine Sergeant can strike at I4 by foregoing his Overwatch even when his squad does not. Kind of makes sense with 40k squad leaders tending to have a pistol + melee weapon as their default loadout, and an extra Attack.

So in essence make it even easier for other armies to defeat orkz?

Tau will continue to Rapid fire orkz to death in overwatch because their melee is terrible and now armies with good Initiative will choose not to hit 1/6th of the time in overwatch and instead get a 50-66% chance to hit with multiple attacks in CC before orkz get to swing because orkz initiative was 2, most armies had 3+.

You know what? I am fine with this actually, lets make this game as close to the fluff as possible, so since a SM can kill like 100 orkz by himself I need to be able to bring several thousand to every game. Also, orkz are able to fight with basically all their limbs torn off so we need to represent this with a 3+ FNP. And I need attack moons as a thing.

I don't miss init.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
What if Initiative existed as it used to, but electing to Overwatch automatically reduces the firer to effectively I0 in that they must go last?

EDIT: Could be interesting if Characters chose whether or not to Overwatch independent of their squad; e.g. a Space Marine Sergeant can strike at I4 by foregoing his Overwatch even when his squad does not. Kind of makes sense with 40k squad leaders tending to have a pistol + melee weapon as their default loadout, and an extra Attack.

So in essence make it even easier for other armies to defeat orkz?

Tau will continue to Rapid fire orkz to death in overwatch because their melee is terrible and now armies with good Initiative will choose not to hit 1/6th of the time in overwatch and instead get a 50-66% chance to hit with multiple attacks in CC before orkz get to swing because orkz initiative was 2, most armies had 3+.

You know what? I am fine with this actually, lets make this game as close to the fluff as possible, so since a SM can kill like 100 orkz by himself I need to be able to bring several thousand to every game. Also, orkz are able to fight with basically all their limbs torn off so we need to represent this with a 3+ FNP. And I need attack moons as a thing.

What I suggested was to remove the issue of charging units suffering from Overwatch hits and getting hit first in combat due to higher Initiative by changing "and" to "or", assuming an environment in which we have re-introduced Initiative because myself and others actually liked it. Speaking of Orks specifically, though, they never should have removed the Initiative bonus from Furious Charge. It was a big blow to Khorne Berzerkers as well. But Orks in 7th had a lot more problems than just Initiative.

But a Space Marine was never able to "kill 100 Orks by himself" even with Overwatching with a flamer and striking first. Of course Tau will still always choose to Overwatch, but that's no different to how it is in 8th right now so I don't see how this at all makes it "easier" for them to kill Orks.

Just let initiative go. Took so many years for us to leave a 5th edition style ruleset.


I find it funny how people called 5th edition the "golden days" when in actual fact it was a stale,Monotonous piece of crap that never deserved the praise it was given because everyone either played cheese or went leap frog from codex to codex.

Just let initiative go. It is an outdated idea that belongs back in the past. Just embrace how 8th edition changed things. Adapt and master the rules that we have instead of thinking about things that have passed.

It's just better this way

Wyldhunt wrote:
It's not so much about superhuman reflexes specifically. It's more that it just feels a little bizarre for some of the deadliest melee combatants in the galaxy (be they green, pointy-eared, or astartes) to get within stabbing distance of a bunch of much less impressive mooks and fail to bring anyone down with them. Would you disagree that a wounded squad of nobz that gets charged and killed by some guardsmen should probably kill a couple of guardsmen before they go?

You know, when we still had initiative, those guardsmen would have finished off those wounded nobz before they killed single one of them even if the nobz were charging them. PKs struck last.

To soothe your pain with you head canon a little: In "False Gods", the second book of the Horus Heresy, there is a sparring match where Lucius from the EC dueled a Sons of Horus Captain. Lucius at that point was already a swordsman of unmatched skill, during countless battles that cost dozens of his brethren their life, he didn't even get a scratch. The Sons of Horus captain defeated him within the first few seconds by simply punching him in the face when Lucius expected him to attack with his sword.
Even a warrior as close to perfection as Lucius does not stand a chance if he is caught by something unexpected.

In 8th, agility is now displayed by movement speed. With 8" movement speed and rising crescendo, harlequins should not get surrounded by orks, they can literally dance away from them and shoot at will with the orks having zero chance to catch them at all. If a troupe gets caught by orks charging 5"+2d6 (average 12") while they can charge 8"+3d6 (average 18") those harlequins were caught out in the open and clobbered before they could react.

So even without initiative, Harlequins should always be striking first against orks, unless they get sneaked upon or dove too deep into ork ranges. In both cases they deserve to die without retaliation.

One place I majorly miss Init is Dire Avengers taking a charge. But that'd be better solved by changing Defensive Training back to what it was (Counterattack, so basically counts as charging when charged).

Rangers not striking first when they get charged by Orkz or whatnot is odd too, but not as jarring.

Not that those units striking first would change much.

I don't think Ini. needs to return, but I would like to see some kind of reaction options, a bit like in old fantasy.

For example, a unit declares a charge, the target units now have three Options:

a. Shooting (improved?) overwatch, but a unit shooting overwatch can not fight the following combatphase.

b. Counterattack; no overwatch, but every modell in the attacked unit may make a singel attack when it is slain.

c. Escape; the unit moves D6 (or D3) away from the charging unit, to get out of the enemys charge range. If it escapes the charge, the unit may not move, shoot, cast psi-powers or declare charge in its following turn.
If the unit does not escape, it is automatically destroyed.

In my opinion 8th often lacks options. There are a lot of strategems, but they are crutch that adds an additonal layer of book-keeping. Again just my opinon. I would like to see more "reaction" options in the core rules, I actually miss the option to go to grund when someone shoots at my guys.
It won't make much of diffrence but still, something you could do.

 Jidmah wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
It's not so much about superhuman reflexes specifically. It's more that it just feels a little bizarre for some of the deadliest melee combatants in the galaxy (be they green, pointy-eared, or astartes) to get within stabbing distance of a bunch of much less impressive mooks and fail to bring anyone down with them. Would you disagree that a wounded squad of nobz that gets charged and killed by some guardsmen should probably kill a couple of guardsmen before they go?

You know, when we still had initiative, those guardsmen would have finished off those wounded nobz before they killed single one of them even if the nobz were charging them. PKs struck last.

Sure. Which is why I'm not really arguing for a return to "initiative" so much as suggesting that it might be nice to have a mechanic that allowed sufficiently talented melee units to do some damage even if they were on the receiving end of the charge. My knee-jerk reaction is to suggest something like the "When you die, stab or shoot something on a 4+" mechanics that certain units/factions have, but that seems like it would slow down the game significantly. A charging player should be rewarded for getting the charge, but harlequins, ork nobz, vanguard vets, etc. should probably be able to drag a few guys down with them when charged by, for instance, a mob of cultists.

To soothe your pain with you head canon a little: In "False Gods", the second book of the Horus Heresy, there is a sparring match where Lucius from the EC dueled a Sons of Horus Captain. Lucius at that point was already a swordsman of unmatched skill, during countless battles that cost dozens of his brethren their life, he didn't even get a scratch. The Sons of Horus captain defeated him within the first few seconds by simply punching him in the face when Lucius expected him to attack with his sword.
Even a warrior as close to perfection as Lucius does not stand a chance if he is caught by something unexpected.

I'm all for justifying abstract mechanics with flavorful explanations, but Lucius can only be "surprised" so many times by significantly less talented opponents before it gets played out. I'd buy that one squad of guardsmen did something clever that threw him off when they charged. It becomes comical when the next ten guard squads that charge him manage to do the same. I catch your point though.

In 8th, agility is now displayed by movement speed. With 8" movement speed and rising crescendo, harlequins should not get surrounded by orks, they can literally dance away from them and shoot at will with the orks having zero chance to catch them at all. If a troupe gets caught by orks charging 5"+2d6 (average 12") while they can charge 8"+3d6 (average 18") those harlequins were caught out in the open and clobbered before they could react.

So even without initiative, Harlequins should always be striking first against orks, unless they get sneaked upon or dove too deep into ork ranges. In both cases they deserve to die without retaliation.

Largely unrelated rant incoming:

See, I've heard the whole "movement compensates for initiative" thing a lot this edition, and it just doesn't hold up in my experience. Sure, harlequins can pretty reliably charge the ork army before the ork army charges them, but that's not the issue. The issue is that my opponents are competent players with more than one unit in their army that will very likely wish to move towards and charge my unit that just charged at which point they will get to swing first and probably kill my harlequins to a man. We only get to "dance away" on our own turn, long after the other player has had a chance to move towards, charge, and fight them.

If I'm running a harlequin army, I'm running a melee army. It gets things done by charging enemy units. So unless my opponent has been kind enough to spread out and isolate his own units, my choices often boil down to either not getting into meele with my melee army or doing so and then receiving a charge in return. In ideal scenarios, I might be able to tie up every unit that wants to charge in a given area, but that has more to do with what my opponent is fielding and how they're deployed/positioned that with a conscious decision on my part.

40k is a game that takes place over about 5 turns on a 6'X4' table. If this were an rpg, I'd be all about spending forever kiting the enemy or using guerilla warfare to hit them while they're making camp, but that's not really how 40k works. ^_^;