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BrianDavion wrote:
with the big 4 I see the novels going forward as being a bit like this... we're going to get most of our baseline primaris info from Ultramarine novels. weather you like UMs or not, they're the baseline so they're the ideal chapter for a "this is the norm!" we'll see a smattering of novels about the other big 4 to answer the question how do these chapters deal with X?

Once the basic facts are eistablished we'll see things move out,

Depends on the timeline, the Indomitus Crusade is about 200 years old now so If they are doing current stories the Primaris have plenty of time to be inculcated.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
with the big 4 I see the novels going forward as being a bit like this... we're going to get most of our baseline primaris info from Ultramarine novels. weather you like UMs or not, they're the baseline so they're the ideal chapter for a "this is the norm!" we'll see a smattering of novels about the other big 4 to answer the question how do these chapters deal with X?

Once the basic facts are eistablished we'll see things move out,

Depends on the timeline, the Indomitus Crusade is about 200 years old now so If they are doing current stories the Primaris have plenty of time to be inculcated.

*sighs* I'm talking about for US, the readers. fleshing out Primaris Masrines to the readers is critical, they need to ensure aceptance.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
with the big 4 I see the novels going forward as being a bit like this... we're going to get most of our baseline primaris info from Ultramarine novels. weather you like UMs or not, they're the baseline so they're the ideal chapter for a "this is the norm!" we'll see a smattering of novels about the other big 4 to answer the question how do these chapters deal with X?

Once the basic facts are eistablished we'll see things move out,

Depends on the timeline, the Indomitus Crusade is about 200 years old now so If they are doing current stories the Primaris have plenty of time to be inculcated.

*sighs* I'm talking about for US, the readers. fleshing out Primaris Masrines to the readers is critical, they need to ensure aceptance.

Just saying. but I don't actually see that many novels dedicated to it, there is a whole host of stuff happening at the moment, they'll obviously get a mention as to speak, but I doubt there will be books centred on the Primaris trying to settle in, I think it will be mentioned in every Space Marine novel and accumulate it like that.

It was not written by Gav Thorpe, hence the Dark Angel lore is poorly presented/different from what is established.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
with the big 4 I see the novels going forward as being a bit like this... we're going to get most of our baseline primaris info from Ultramarine novels. weather you like UMs or not, they're the baseline so they're the ideal chapter for a "this is the norm!" we'll see a smattering of novels about the other big 4 to answer the question how do these chapters deal with X?

Once the basic facts are eistablished we'll see things move out,

Depends on the timeline, the Indomitus Crusade is about 200 years old now so If they are doing current stories the Primaris have plenty of time to be inculcated.

*sighs* I'm talking about for US, the readers. fleshing out Primaris Masrines to the readers is critical, they need to ensure aceptance.

Just saying. but I don't actually see that many novels dedicated to it, there is a whole host of stuff happening at the moment, they'll obviously get a mention as to speak, but I doubt there will be books centred on the Primaris trying to settle in, I think it will be mentioned in every Space Marine novel and accumulate it like that.

I'm just looking at BL's release schedule. After Wart of secrets the next space marine novels coming up are a mephestion novel, and in september two seperate novels very much focusing on Primaris Marines. one of which promises "new insights into primaris marines abound"

Finally. The hunt for the fallen is super boring. Honestly. Dark Angels are awesome, and I really just wanted to see them kick some Tau ass without the damn fallen getting involved (though it makes sense they would for their first primaris novel.)

I dont understand how people think DA cant be interesting outside of Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Fallen...

123ply wrote:
Finally. The hunt for the fallen is super boring. Honestly. Dark Angels are awesome, and I really just wanted to see them kick some Tau ass without the damn fallen getting involved (though it makes sense they would for their first primaris novel.)

I dont understand how people think DA cant be interesting outside of Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Fallen...

Not saying that they can't be, but are they?

I don't mean to say that DA "can't" be interesting. However, are they actually interesting outside of that? Not really. And especially, as you say, for their first Primaris novel, they really should be dealing with the Fallen.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

123ply wrote:
Finally. The hunt for the fallen is super boring. Honestly. Dark Angels are awesome, and I really just wanted to see them kick some Tau ass without the damn fallen getting involved (though it makes sense they would for their first primaris novel.)

I dont understand how people think DA cant be interesting outside of Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Fallen...

Not saying that they can't be, but are they?

I don't mean to say that DA "can't" be interesting. However, are they actually interesting outside of that? Not really. And especially, as you say, for their first Primaris novel, they really should be dealing with the Fallen.

Marine novels usually focus on the chapters planet culture/chapter culture and how that influences life for marines.
There's a missed opportunity to show what it is like to be a green marine in a reserve company, constantly being kept out of the loop by your superiors.

How do they instil a sense of martial pride while actively excluding marines and keeping an oppressive blackout/need to know on all that they do?

what is the effect of frequent mindwipes on an astartes?

The primaris have fought under commanders appointed by Guilliman, in mixed astartes units and formations, with bonhomie and camaraderie. . How do they react to this poe-faced opression and exclusion? Do they rebel? Do they accept their lot? Do they get space-depressed?

 =Angel= wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

123ply wrote:
Finally. The hunt for the fallen is super boring. Honestly. Dark Angels are awesome, and I really just wanted to see them kick some Tau ass without the damn fallen getting involved (though it makes sense they would for their first primaris novel.)

I dont understand how people think DA cant be interesting outside of Deathwing, Ravenwing, or Fallen...

Not saying that they can't be, but are they?

I don't mean to say that DA "can't" be interesting. However, are they actually interesting outside of that? Not really. And especially, as you say, for their first Primaris novel, they really should be dealing with the Fallen.

Marine novels usually focus on the chapters planet culture/chapter culture and how that influences life for marines.
There's a missed opportunity to show what it is like to be a green marine in a reserve company, constantly being kept out of the loop by your superiors.

How do they instil a sense of martial pride while actively excluding marines and keeping an oppressive blackout/need to know on all that they do?

what is the effect of frequent mindwipes on an astartes?

The primaris have fought under commanders appointed by Guilliman, in mixed astartes units and formations, with bonhomie and camaraderie. . How do they react to this poe-faced opression and exclusion? Do they rebel? Do they accept their lot? Do they get space-depressed?

All good points. However, you're suggesting essentially filling in the blanks for a Chapter which already has been filled in a great amount, instead of doing something, anything, for a Chapter with nearly nothing filled in.

Also, nearly all of the above things you say are related to the Inner Circle - just from the perspective of someone not in it. In doing so, you're sorta proving that the only actual trait of the Dark Angels is the Inner Circle and their duties. Sure, it's not from the perspective from someone within the Inner Circle (which, as someone who hasn't read this book, sounds like that's exactly what this book is about), but the main source of interest in the Chapter comes from the Circle - which apparently there's more to the DA than that.

So, as I've said - is there anything interesting narratively about the Dark Angels that doesn't stem from the Fallen, the Inner Circle, their secrecy, etc etc? Because as it looks, that seems to be the only unique narrative feature they have to offer - which is fine, I might add.

Da Butcha wrote:
I'm dumbfounded.

So the DA spend years carefully grooming and hypno-conditioning their initiates into loyal marines before selecting the few who can be trusted to learn the most rudimentary things that the Ravenwing know...but it's sensible to assign completely new Primaries marines to a joint Deathwing/Ravenwing Hunt for the Fallen operation in their literal FIRST combat operation with the Chapter, then, spill most of the beans to them and create an entirely new Circle of secretive Primaris for them to join? The Chapter spends thousands of years concealing a hugely consequential treasonous act (and committing untold other treasons to keep it secret), but they also slip up and let the new guys learn about out on their very first combat operation? Whoops?
How could they have kept this a secret from the Inquisition for thousands of years if two squads of Primaris can figure it out in a couple of weeks?

I haven't read the book, but I have questions.
A). are you sure it's actually their fist mission with the Dark Angels? If mind wiping is the plan, maybe it was done before? Does the book establish it as fact, or is that what the Primaris are told?
and B). If they are Primaris who came down through the Indomitus Crusade, they are not dumb scrubs "on their very first combat operation", they are veterans of like, 150 years of grinding Crusade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:All Blood Angels struggle with the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, to one extent or another, sooner or later. All Space Wolves struggle with the Curse of the Wulfen, to one extent or another. All Ultramarines struggle with the legacy of the Codex. What do ALL Dark Angels struggle with? Not just the Inner Circle. Why are the 80% of the Chapter that don't wear black or white have anything interesting about them?

Exactly - what DO all Dark Angels struggle with? They really don't. The biggest narrative element of the DA IS the Hunt for the Fallen. Aside from that, they're marines with a penchant for plasma.

Waiting for a DA fan to set me straight on that.

As far as I would say, as a Dark Angel player of a couple decades.:
They struggle with trust issues, because they are trained to be even less trusting than normal marines. Especially when dealing with other Imperial forces, some of whom have developed trust issues with them, due to the fact that sometimes they just bugger off. (but this does relate back to the Fallen)
As a chapter they have even more focus on obedience and ritual than even the Ultramarines. If an Ultra breaks the codex they might get sent on a penitence, if a Dark Angel does that gak they may well get shot behind the chemical sheds for being a Heretic (unless they are an MC in a book, at which point they will probably end up in the Deathwing/Ravenwing). (of course, this also relates back to the Fallen)

Basically, they struggle with the structure of their own Chapter.
Their rules, their secrets, their culture, are their strength and protection from Heresy, but they also bind them and restrict them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

It’s hardly surprising the most chaotic loyalists would behave in such a manner.

People always forget that caliban was a chaos tainted world, yes it was destroyed but the rock is still part of that tainted planet, 10k years of exposure, even slight exposure, of the warp is going to have an effect, it could go a long way to explaining why the dark angels “secrets” curse is so strong, that and the first chapter masters really really screwed things up for every successive generation.

The Dark Angels aren't Chaotic though. Certainly not more so than several Chapters with Khorne-adjacent problems (why in the Emperor's bony protrusions did Grimnar decide to build a Throne of Skulls to honour "The Emperor"?)

They do get a bit "Radical", as the Inquisition would say, because their definition of "for the good of the Imperium" does sometimes veer away from what other folks might think, in that they feel hunting down a Fallen that shows up is often more important than the War they are supposed to be fighting. Which to be fair, could be true. A rogue Fallen can cause a LOT of subtle damage, over a long time.

I would argue the whole "secrets and rituals" thing is because they are so worried ABOUT possible taint. It's supposed to be protective. To protect them as a whole, by preventing the Imperium finding out their shame (though it's really not as big a deal as they make out, even the Grey Knights know about it), and to protect the rank and file marines from themselves. It's easier to fight Chaos Marines if you think it could never happen to you. It's theoretically harder to fall if you don't consider it a possibility.
Like everything in 40k, it does almost as much harm as good though.

Books about 3rd to 10th company dont have to involve the Inner Circle really. I just want to read a book that plays to the DAs strength of being good strategists. After so much Gav Thorpe, I want to see Dark Angels act like the strategically gifted marines they are supposed to be, rathen than a bunch of idiot spazzes like we've been seeing then. For example, in the novel Azrael, Azrael does nothing remarkable but almost gets killed by both the villians before being saved both times. In Angel of Darkness we have an in depth look at how dumb and mentally eroded Gav Thorpe thinks Interrogator Chaplains should be, as if constantly screaming "LIAR!" Is going to make a fallen angel repent.
Sigh. Their characters are almost always portrayed so negativley when compared to other chapters.

123ply wrote:
Books about 3rd to 10th company dont have to involve the Inner Circle really. I just want to read a book that plays to the DAs strength of being good strategists. After so much Gav Thorpe, I want to see Dark Angels act like the strategically gifted marines they are supposed to be, rathen than a bunch of idiot spazzes like we've been seeing then. For example, in the novel Azrael, Azrael does nothing remarkable but almost gets killed by both the villians before being saved both times. In Angel of Darkness we have an in depth look at how dumb and mentally eroded Gav Thorpe thinks Interrogator Chaplains should be, as if constantly screaming "LIAR!" Is going to make a fallen angel repent.
Sigh. Their characters are almost always portrayed so negativley when compared to other chapters.

it doesn't help that dark angels, outside the whole "secretive inner circle" are lacking in a culture. Ultramarines have the whole vaguely roman/greek warrior philophesy kings asp[ect to them, space wolves have a strong viking culture ground into them, blood angels have the dicohotmy of being both savage and noble... dark angels being fleet based etc don't really seem to have much culture beyond the inner circle thing. which is a shame as a knightly order type mentality is somewhere they could draw a LOT of inspiration for.

The Purge of Kadillus features the Dark Angels with ZERO fallen involved, if you like.

Ezaviel wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Da Butcha wrote:All Blood Angels struggle with the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, to one extent or another, sooner or later. All Space Wolves struggle with the Curse of the Wulfen, to one extent or another. All Ultramarines struggle with the legacy of the Codex. What do ALL Dark Angels struggle with? Not just the Inner Circle. Why are the 80% of the Chapter that don't wear black or white have anything interesting about them?

Exactly - what DO all Dark Angels struggle with? They really don't. The biggest narrative element of the DA IS the Hunt for the Fallen. Aside from that, they're marines with a penchant for plasma.

Waiting for a DA fan to set me straight on that.

As far as I would say, as a Dark Angel player of a couple decades.:
They struggle with trust issues, because they are trained to be even less trusting than normal marines. Especially when dealing with other Imperial forces, some of whom have developed trust issues with them, due to the fact that sometimes they just bugger off. (but this does relate back to the Fallen)
As a chapter they have even more focus on obedience and ritual than even the Ultramarines. If an Ultra breaks the codex they might get sent on a penitence, if a Dark Angel does that gak they may well get shot behind the chemical sheds for being a Heretic (unless they are an MC in a book, at which point they will probably end up in the Deathwing/Ravenwing). (of course, this also relates back to the Fallen)

Basically, they struggle with the structure of their own Chapter.
Their rules, their secrets, their culture, are their strength and protection from Heresy, but they also bind them and restrict them.

Thank you for responding and giving me a better insight!
As you say - a lot of what makes the DA unique relates to the Fallen.
Trust issues? Because they've been trained not to. Why? Because of the Fallen.
Strict adherence to order and discipline? Because of the Fallen.
Structure of the Chapter? Because of the Fallen.

The Dark Angels intrinsically are tied to their history and hate of the Fallen. It's the main trait about their Chapter - which is absolutely fine! It's a really good storytelling hook for them. However, for people to say "we want DA stories that aren't all about the Fallen" is a little confusing, because the Dark Angels ARE all about the Fallen. If the story they're in (Kadillus, Piscinia etc etc) isn't about the Fallen, then it doesn't really matter if it were the Dark Angels in that story. The only exception I can think of is their rivalry with the Space Wolves, but then, that's more of a Space Wolves thing (their relationship with other more civilised Imperial forces).

123ply wrote:Books about 3rd to 10th company dont have to involve the Inner Circle really. I just want to read a book that plays to the DAs strength of being good strategists. After so much Gav Thorpe, I want to see Dark Angels act like the strategically gifted marines they are supposed to be, rathen than a bunch of idiot spazzes like we've been seeing then.

Are the Dark Angels strategically gifted? Or, more accurately, are the Dark Angels Space Marines gifted?

As far as I knew, Lion El'Jonson was incredibly strategically gifted, moreso than nearly any other Primarch, but I didn't think that it passed on to his Legion. I didn't get the impression that he fostered strategic growth on his men, but rather secrecy and suspicion. Unlike Guilliman, who tried to pass his expertise to his men, or how Dorn passed on his siegecraft. I think the Lion has far less close to his own men than many other Primarch were. Curze, for example, didn't pass on his own sense of "justice" to his legion. I feel that Lion was the same, and that his Legion weren't particularly strategically gifted, but he was.

I'm open to them being good strategists, but I didn't think it was their "thing".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All good points. However, you're suggesting essentially filling in the blanks for a Chapter which already has been filled in a great amount, instead of doing something, anything, for a Chapter with nearly nothing filled in.

There's nothing wrong with that either. The premise of the thread is that DA players and other 40k fans might like the DA to act in an Astartes capacity and see how that plays out, rather than a super secret mission capacity.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, nearly all of the above things you say are related to the Inner Circle - just from the perspective of someone not in it. In doing so, you're sorta proving that the only actual trait of the Dark Angels is the Inner Circle and their duties. Sure, it's not from the perspective from someone within the Inner Circle (which, as someone who hasn't read this book, sounds like that's exactly what this book is about), but the main source of interest in the Chapter comes from the Circle - which apparently there's more to the DA than that.

The main cultural and narrative driver of the DA is the circles. There are ten captains and a number of chaplains and some librarians who know the full truth (to the extent it has been recorded accurately) and about 1000 line Astartes who know varying degrees of truth or lies, as their circle permits.

The overall themes of the DA that stem from this are

Secrecy

Rigid adherence to seniority and role - you know your place and do as you are told.

Seriousness- a lack of verve, joy and espirit du corps

mopish monastic discipline and stubbornness

That's not all they have going for them though- as the first legion they have access to archeotech (like a single jetbike.) The problem is exploring this facet in any detail means delving into history- not something a Dark Angel can do. Any 'guardian of the armoury' stories are inevitably going to involve Deathwing or inner circle initiates.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, as I've said - is there anything interesting narratively about the Dark Angels that doesn't stem from the Fallen, the Inner Circle, their secrecy, etc etc? Because as it looks, that seems to be the only unique narrative feature they have to offer - which is fine, I might add.

My argument was that there's something to explore in the common soldier's enduring the consequences of the main narrative thrust. A dark angel being lied to, he knows that he is being lied to, he feels he has to trust his superiors because he has been indoctrinated to do so. 1984 with powerarmoured supermen.
An angel with false memories from a mindwipe, struggling to tell what is real.
A mindwiped angel with memories breaking through robocop style
A story from the pov of a soldier whose friend is subjected to any of the above.
The misery a dark angel feels when he notices the brotherly zeal and boasting of the Templars he is crusading with, or the consideration of the salamanders.

The fallen story doesn't come up, just the repercusssions that the DA live with day to day. thoughts?

If I try makes you feel better, the Tau portions of it were also crap. Humans apparently made a chaos god of the Greater Good (which hopefully gets expanded to really just being Tzeentch).

What? All gods exist in some form in the Warp even tiny ancient Fenrisian ones.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All good points. However, you're suggesting essentially filling in the blanks for a Chapter which already has been filled in a great amount, instead of doing something, anything, for a Chapter with nearly nothing filled in.

There's nothing wrong with that either. The premise of the thread is that DA players and other 40k fans might like the DA to act in an Astartes capacity and see how that plays out, rather than a super secret mission capacity.

Good point. However, there's two things that make that unlikely, especially in this particular case.

Firstly, the fact this was the first DA Primaris novel. I think OP was foolish for expecting anything other than the first DA Primaris book to feature the Fallen. Yes, you can argue that the execution in the book was poor, which I won't contend, because I've not read it, but if you expected anything other than the Fallen plot arc to be a feature, you kind of set yourself up to be disappointed.

Secondly, the problem with getting the DA to act more like normal Astartes is precisely the problem - they're just act like "normal" Astartes, and that that point, why bother making them Dark Angels if they're just going to behave like "normal Astartes". We know how normal Astartes fight and how that plays out. What do the Dark Angels bring to that which no-one else does? Their own unique characters? Their characters are all Inner Circle, and most of their character traits revolve around that. Their abnormally high use of plasma? So the key focus of the book is plasma? Not ideal. The fact they look green and have knightly aesthetics? Not really much to write about.

What sets the DA apart from normal Astartes that warrants them being written about, and not some 21st Founding Chapter?

(Note that I feel the same about any of the First Founding Chapters. Why should a book about "normal Astartes" be written from the perspective of that Chapter unless there's something unique about that Chapter in the narrative? For example, Ultramarines fighting Orks? Pssh. No need. Ultramarines needing to confront the flaws of the Codex, after being confronted with a unique Ork threat? Perfect.)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, nearly all of the above things you say are related to the Inner Circle - just from the perspective of someone not in it. In doing so, you're sorta proving that the only actual trait of the Dark Angels is the Inner Circle and their duties. Sure, it's not from the perspective from someone within the Inner Circle (which, as someone who hasn't read this book, sounds like that's exactly what this book is about), but the main source of interest in the Chapter comes from the Circle - which apparently there's more to the DA than that.

The main cultural and narrative driver of the DA is the circles. There are ten captains and a number of chaplains and some librarians who know the full truth (to the extent it has been recorded accurately) and about 1000 line Astartes who know varying degrees of truth or lies, as their circle permits.

The overall themes of the DA that stem from this are

Secrecy

Rigid adherence to seniority and role - you know your place and do as you are told.

Seriousness- a lack of verve, joy and espirit du corps

mopish monastic discipline and stubbornness

That's not all they have going for them though- as the first legion they have access to archeotech (like a single jetbike.) The problem is exploring this facet in any detail means delving into history- not something a Dark Angel can do. Any 'guardian of the armoury' stories are inevitably going to involve Deathwing or inner circle initiates.

Unfortunately, most of those traits exist purely because of the whole Fallen incident. So, fundamentally, the Fallen is the main driving force of the DA being the DA.

I don't doubt you could write something which doesn't feature the Fallen, and focusing on their dourness, especially contrasted against someone like a Space Wolf or Salamander, but the fact stands that the REASON they're like that is because of the Fallen.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, as I've said - is there anything interesting narratively about the Dark Angels that doesn't stem from the Fallen, the Inner Circle, their secrecy, etc etc? Because as it looks, that seems to be the only unique narrative feature they have to offer - which is fine, I might add.

My argument was that there's something to explore in the common soldier's enduring the consequences of the main narrative thrust. A dark angel being lied to, he knows that he is being lied to, he feels he has to trust his superiors because he has been indoctrinated to do so. 1984 with powerarmoured supermen.
An angel with false memories from a mindwipe, struggling to tell what is real.
A mindwiped angel with memories breaking through robocop style
A story from the pov of a soldier whose friend is subjected to any of the above.
The misery a dark angel feels when he notices the brotherly zeal and boasting of the Templars he is crusading with, or the consideration of the salamanders.

The fallen story doesn't come up, just the repercusssions that the DA live with day to day. thoughts?

You're certainly persuading me, and I have to admit that there's a good deal of those ideas which could make for good story hooks. However, the reason that the Dark Angel in these situations is because of the Fallen - maybe not directly, but from how they're raised, trained, indoctrinated - it's all about the Fallen for them. You've definitely brought me more sympathetic to a Greenwing DA story (if it focused on these aspects), but the point stands still that the reason they feel this way is fundamentally related to the Fallen. Thus, to expect a DA story with no narrative for the Fallen would be lacking a massive part of who the DA are.

And to hammer the point in again, the big question re DA Primaris is how they'll fit in re the fallen. this question needed to be answeredc

pm713 wrote:
What? All gods exist in some form in the Warp even tiny ancient Fenrisian ones.

Except that the Greater God is a philosophy, not a god, and this god was powerful enough to open a portal into real space to save the 4th sphere expansion fleet. A god that the book indicated was primarily created by humans that were part of the Tau Empire.

It also had a wonderfully terrible line about Kais's veins buldging out like he'd been exposed to hard vacuum in anger over this news.

Skaorn wrote:

pm713 wrote:
What? All gods exist in some form in the Warp even tiny ancient Fenrisian ones.

Except that the Greater God is a philosophy, not a god, and this god was powerful enough to open a portal into real space to save the 4th sphere expansion fleet. A god that the book indicated was primarily created by humans that were part of the Tau Empire.

It also had a wonderfully terrible line about Kais's veins buldging out like he'd been exposed to hard vacuum in anger over this news.

You could easily have a god forming to represent the belief in that philosophy. But that said everything else you said sounds incredibly stupid...

123ply wrote:Books about 3rd to 10th company dont have to involve the Inner Circle really. I just want to read a book that plays to the DAs strength of being good strategists. After so much Gav Thorpe, I want to see Dark Angels act like the strategically gifted marines they are supposed to be, rathen than a bunch of idiot spazzes like we've been seeing then.

Are the Dark Angels strategically gifted? Or, more accurately, are the Dark Angels Space Marines gifted?

As far as I knew, Lion El'Jonson was incredibly strategically gifted, moreso than nearly any other Primarch, but I didn't think that it passed on to his Legion. I didn't get the impression that he fostered strategic growth on his men, but rather secrecy and suspicion. Unlike Guilliman, who tried to pass his expertise to his men, or how Dorn passed on his siegecraft. I think the Lion has far less close to his own men than many other Primarch were. Curze, for example, didn't pass on his own sense of "justice" to his legion. I feel that Lion was the same, and that his Legion weren't particularly strategically gifted, but he was.

I'm open to them being good strategists, but I didn't think it was their "thing".

Being intelligent is actually one of their "things". To quote from their seventh edition codex: The Lions greatest legacy is his strategic genius- a quality passed on to his sons through the chapters gene-seed. This trait manifests exponentially as a Dark Angel ascends towards the rank of company master.

Even back in their entry in the rogue trader - Deathwatch book they are given +5 to their intelligence and ballistic skills over their marine cousins.

The fact that someone has to ask if this is actually one of their defining traits does demonstrate how badly other elements of this chapters character have been horribly under utilised in favour of their over used secret's fetish. I would love to read a book featuring them that doesn't have them acting like utter morons who let themselves get dragged around by the nose all the time.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

123ply wrote:Books about 3rd to 10th company dont have to involve the Inner Circle really. I just want to read a book that plays to the DAs strength of being good strategists. After so much Gav Thorpe, I want to see Dark Angels act like the strategically gifted marines they are supposed to be, rathen than a bunch of idiot spazzes like we've been seeing then.

Are the Dark Angels strategically gifted? Or, more accurately, are the Dark Angels Space Marines gifted?

As far as I knew, Lion El'Jonson was incredibly strategically gifted, moreso than nearly any other Primarch, but I didn't think that it passed on to his Legion. I didn't get the impression that he fostered strategic growth on his men, but rather secrecy and suspicion. Unlike Guilliman, who tried to pass his expertise to his men, or how Dorn passed on his siegecraft. I think the Lion has far less close to his own men than many other Primarch were. Curze, for example, didn't pass on his own sense of "justice" to his legion. I feel that Lion was the same, and that his Legion weren't particularly strategically gifted, but he was.

I'm open to them being good strategists, but I didn't think it was their "thing".

Being intelligent is actually one of their "things". To quote from their seventh edition codex: The Lions greatest legacy is his strategic genius- a quality passed on to his sons through the chapters gene-seed. This trait manifests exponentially as a Dark Angel ascends towards the rank of company master.

Even back in their entry in the rogue trader - Deathwatch book they are given +5 to their intelligence and ballistic skills over their marine cousins.

The fact that someone has to ask if this is actually one of their defining traits does demonstrate how badly other elements of this chapters character have been horribly under utilised in favour of their over used secret's fetish. I would love to read a book featuring them that doesn't have them acting like utter morons who let themselves get dragged around by the nose all the time.

thing is EEEEEVRY marine chapter is said to be geniuses in their own codex. Codex Space Marines says Clagar is the greatest chapter master evah, Space Wolves says Logan is, Blood Angels says Dante is etc

BrianDavion wrote:

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

123ply wrote:Books about 3rd to 10th company dont have to involve the Inner Circle really. I just want to read a book that plays to the DAs strength of being good strategists. After so much Gav Thorpe, I want to see Dark Angels act like the strategically gifted marines they are supposed to be, rathen than a bunch of idiot spazzes like we've been seeing then.

Are the Dark Angels strategically gifted? Or, more accurately, are the Dark Angels Space Marines gifted?

As far as I knew, Lion El'Jonson was incredibly strategically gifted, moreso than nearly any other Primarch, but I didn't think that it passed on to his Legion. I didn't get the impression that he fostered strategic growth on his men, but rather secrecy and suspicion. Unlike Guilliman, who tried to pass his expertise to his men, or how Dorn passed on his siegecraft. I think the Lion has far less close to his own men than many other Primarch were. Curze, for example, didn't pass on his own sense of "justice" to his legion. I feel that Lion was the same, and that his Legion weren't particularly strategically gifted, but he was.

I'm open to them being good strategists, but I didn't think it was their "thing".

Being intelligent is actually one of their "things". To quote from their seventh edition codex: The Lions greatest legacy is his strategic genius- a quality passed on to his sons through the chapters gene-seed. This trait manifests exponentially as a Dark Angel ascends towards the rank of company master.

Even back in their entry in the rogue trader - Deathwatch book they are given +5 to their intelligence and ballistic skills over their marine cousins.

The fact that someone has to ask if this is actually one of their defining traits does demonstrate how badly other elements of this chapters character have been horribly under utilised in favour of their over used secret's fetish. I would love to read a book featuring them that doesn't have them acting like utter morons who let themselves get dragged around by the nose all the time.

thing is EEEEEVRY marine chapter is said to be geniuses in their own codex. Codex Space Marines says Clagar is the greatest chapter master evah, Space Wolves says Logan is, Blood Angels says Dante is etc

Back in the day azrael and dark angels had rules that showed they had “superior” strategy, even now azrael is basically mini guiliman, that’s pretty solid, but this is a fluff discussion and rules don’t mean much when it comes to the fluff, I agree that this aspect of the dark angels has been woefully under used and would also like to see it played on more.

 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

123ply wrote:Books about 3rd to 10th company dont have to involve the Inner Circle really. I just want to read a book that plays to the DAs strength of being good strategists. After so much Gav Thorpe, I want to see Dark Angels act like the strategically gifted marines they are supposed to be, rathen than a bunch of idiot spazzes like we've been seeing then.

Are the Dark Angels strategically gifted? Or, more accurately, are the Dark Angels Space Marines gifted?

As far as I knew, Lion El'Jonson was incredibly strategically gifted, moreso than nearly any other Primarch, but I didn't think that it passed on to his Legion. I didn't get the impression that he fostered strategic growth on his men, but rather secrecy and suspicion. Unlike Guilliman, who tried to pass his expertise to his men, or how Dorn passed on his siegecraft. I think the Lion has far less close to his own men than many other Primarch were. Curze, for example, didn't pass on his own sense of "justice" to his legion. I feel that Lion was the same, and that his Legion weren't particularly strategically gifted, but he was.

I'm open to them being good strategists, but I didn't think it was their "thing".

Being intelligent is actually one of their "things". To quote from their seventh edition codex: The Lions greatest legacy is his strategic genius- a quality passed on to his sons through the chapters gene-seed. This trait manifests exponentially as a Dark Angel ascends towards the rank of company master.

Even back in their entry in the rogue trader - Deathwatch book they are given +5 to their intelligence and ballistic skills over their marine cousins.

The fact that someone has to ask if this is actually one of their defining traits does demonstrate how badly other elements of this chapters character have been horribly under utilised in favour of their over used secret's fetish. I would love to read a book featuring them that doesn't have them acting like utter morons who let themselves get dragged around by the nose all the time.

thing is EEEEEVRY marine chapter is said to be geniuses in their own codex. Codex Space Marines says Clagar is the greatest chapter master evah, Space Wolves says Logan is, Blood Angels says Dante is etc

Back in the day azrael and dark angels had rules that showed they had “superior” strategy, even now azrael is basically mini guiliman, that’s pretty solid, but this is a fluff discussion and rules don’t mean much when it comes to the fluff, I agree that this aspect of the dark angels has been woefully under used and would also like to see it played on more.

Azreal generates +1 CP and regenerates CPs on a roll of 5+. Calgar gives +2 CPs and likewise renegerates CPs on a roll of 5+ thus if you're going to user their 8th edition stats, Calgar is a better commander then Azreal (although both are fantastic COs doin't get me wrong. In fact I think Azreal might be the better of the two over all. a Azreal backstopping a hellblaster gunline is no doubt amazing) so yeah, over all if you look at the RULES, Dark Angels are mearly a "close second" to the ultramarines in terms of command skill, the dark angels may be gifted commanders, but "turned warfare into a science" is more the Ultramarines schtick.

ya know.. that'd be an intreasting short story, Calgar and Azreal meet to discuss some matter or another, and well discussing it play a game of regicide..

Rules aren't fluff in any way though. Or do you believe a horde of Orks actually takes turns to beat people up?

pm713 wrote:
Rules aren't fluff in any way though. Or do you believe a horde of Orks actually takes turns to beat people up?

I agree,m Formosa however was just using rules to illustrate the dark angels are seen as great leaders, and I'm noting if he wanted to use the rules well... UMs are better. thing is, being a good stratigist is pretty minally useful for a space marine chapter. they're small eneugh in scale that even at the chapter level you're mostly dealing with tactical matters, not strategic. In fact IMHO if you wanted to make a smarter distinction between dark angels and ultramarines I'd have UMs be the better stratigists and dark angels the better tacticans.

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Rules aren't fluff in any way though. Or do you believe a horde of Orks actually takes turns to beat people up?

I agree,m Formosa however was just using rules to illustrate the dark angels are seen as great leaders, and I'm noting if he wanted to use the rules well... UMs are better. thing is, being a good stratigist is pretty minally useful for a space marine chapter. they're small eneugh in scale that even at the chapter level you're mostly dealing with tactical matters, not strategic. In fact IMHO if you wanted to make a smarter distinction between dark angels and ultramarines I'd have UMs be the better stratigists and dark angels the better tacticans.

I haven’t kept up with 8ths version of Calgary I was referring ye olde times, working off memory here but all marines had a start rating of 3, dark angels had 5 if you took azrael, at the time I can only think of one other character that had similar and that was abbadon with 4, it wasn’t something that was ever really used though again IIRC, it was used to determine missions or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think orks had d3 +1 too, to represent thier random tactics or something

Orks had a bad strat rating for deployment but good for seizing the first turn, iirc.

BrianDavion wrote:

Azreal generates +1 CP and regenerates CPs on a roll of 5+. Calgar gives +2 CPs and likewise renegerates CPs on a roll of 5+ thus if you're going to user their 8th edition stats, Calgar is a better commander then Azreal (although both are fantastic COs doin't get me wrong. In fact I think Azreal might be the better of the two over all. a Azreal backstopping a hellblaster gunline is no doubt amazing) so yeah, over all if you look at the RULES, Dark Angels are mearly a "close second" to the ultramarines in terms of command skill, the dark angels may be gifted commanders, but "turned warfare into a science" is more the Ultramarines schtick.

If you bring in all of the fluff, including the old fluff, you see that the difference is their perspectives on strategy as well.

The Ultramarines will plot the best strategy... within the boundaries of acceptable losses, and adherence to the dictates of the codex.
Dark Angels will plot the best strategy. To the point of not caring about collateral damage, or "niceties of war".

Case in point, in the days of Imperium Secundus, Robute agreed to making The Lion the Warmaster, because it was what he was best at.
When the Lion needs to crush rebels, his plan is much more direct, and much more damaging than what Robute or Sanguinius will let him get away with. He doesn't see why using phosphex, or orbital bombardments is a big deal. It means less of his troops die, and it's won faster, so he wants to do that.

A Dark Angel will win at any cost. An Ultramarine will not.


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Also, nearly all of the above things you say are related to the Inner Circle - just from the perspective of someone not in it. In doing so, you're sorta proving that the only actual trait of the Dark Angels is the Inner Circle and their duties. Sure, it's not from the perspective from someone within the Inner Circle (which, as someone who hasn't read this book, sounds like that's exactly what this book is about), but the main source of interest in the Chapter comes from the Circle - which apparently there's more to the DA than that.

The main cultural and narrative driver of the DA is the circles. There are ten captains and a number of chaplains and some librarians who know the full truth (to the extent it has been recorded accurately) and about 1000 line Astartes who know varying degrees of truth or lies, as their circle permits.

The overall themes of the DA that stem from this are

Secrecy

Rigid adherence to seniority and role - you know your place and do as you are told.

Seriousness- a lack of verve, joy and espirit du corps

mopish monastic discipline and stubbornness

That's not all they have going for them though- as the first legion they have access to archeotech (like a single jetbike.) The problem is exploring this facet in any detail means delving into history- not something a Dark Angel can do. Any 'guardian of the armoury' stories are inevitably going to involve Deathwing or inner circle initiates.

Unfortunately, most of those traits exist purely because of the whole Fallen incident. So, fundamentally, the Fallen is the main driving force of the DA being the DA.

I don't doubt you could write something which doesn't feature the Fallen, and focusing on their dourness, especially contrasted against someone like a Space Wolf or Salamander, but the fact stands that the REASON they're like that is because of the Fallen.

The culture of circles of knowledge and skill, the rigid hierarchy, the seriousness, the monastic nature, this all technically stems back to Caliban, not the fallen. It was just adapted to include the knowledge of the fallen. If you read the 30k stuff, the Angels were like this even back then.
So it does relate to the Fallen, like everything, but also predates them.