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pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No but there's never been an Empire like the Imperium. What I said was that the goal of Chaos wasn't to gain an army for the real world because they could do that already.

Although if Chaos wanted humanity dead they could probably have done it. But that's a downer on the setting.

They couldn't do that themselves. The fact that they didn't is proof enough. Why allow the Imperium to come to its zenith if they could build an army themselves.

Because they can use it to farm followers, decay, bloodshed, change, desire and everything they want. They also didn't let the Imperium reach it's zenith seeing as they made the Heresy happen to put things in a constant downward spiral.

Not wiping out humanity isn't proof it can't be done at all. 40k is a human centric setting. Nobody can ever kill off humanity because of that. The Eldar Empire could have wiped out Humanity no problem, Chaos could have sent races like the Laer to wipe out every planet humanity had that could space travel and then finish off the rest. They can't/don't because the whole setting is based around humans and you can't have a human setting without humans.

The Imperium was at its zenith during the great crusade. I never said anything about wiping humanity out, Chaos couldn't do that however but that's moot as they need humans. The origional arguments is that they had no materium army and could not have had a materium army that could threaten the Imperium without the HH happening.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No but there's never been an Empire like the Imperium. What I said was that the goal of Chaos wasn't to gain an army for the real world because they could do that already.

Although if Chaos wanted humanity dead they could probably have done it. But that's a downer on the setting.

They couldn't do that themselves. The fact that they didn't is proof enough. Why allow the Imperium to come to its zenith if they could build an army themselves.

Because they can use it to farm followers, decay, bloodshed, change, desire and everything they want. They also didn't let the Imperium reach it's zenith seeing as they made the Heresy happen to put things in a constant downward spiral.

Not wiping out humanity isn't proof it can't be done at all. 40k is a human centric setting. Nobody can ever kill off humanity because of that. The Eldar Empire could have wiped out Humanity no problem, Chaos could have sent races like the Laer to wipe out every planet humanity had that could space travel and then finish off the rest. They can't/don't because the whole setting is based around humans and you can't have a human setting without humans.

The Imperium was at its zenith during the great crusade. I never said anything about wiping humanity out, Chaos couldn't do that however but that's moot as they need humans. The origional arguments is that they had no materium army and could not have had a materium army that could threaten the Imperium without the HH happening.

It would have been better without the Heresy happening that's the whole point of it.

The original argument was me saying that Chaos did have real world armies pre Heresy.

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No but there's never been an Empire like the Imperium. What I said was that the goal of Chaos wasn't to gain an army for the real world because they could do that already.

Although if Chaos wanted humanity dead they could probably have done it. But that's a downer on the setting.

They couldn't do that themselves. The fact that they didn't is proof enough. Why allow the Imperium to come to its zenith if they could build an army themselves.

Because they can use it to farm followers, decay, bloodshed, change, desire and everything they want. They also didn't let the Imperium reach it's zenith seeing as they made the Heresy happen to put things in a constant downward spiral.

Not wiping out humanity isn't proof it can't be done at all. 40k is a human centric setting. Nobody can ever kill off humanity because of that. The Eldar Empire could have wiped out Humanity no problem, Chaos could have sent races like the Laer to wipe out every planet humanity had that could space travel and then finish off the rest. They can't/don't because the whole setting is based around humans and you can't have a human setting without humans.

The Imperium was at its zenith during the great crusade. I never said anything about wiping humanity out, Chaos couldn't do that however but that's moot as they need humans. The origional arguments is that they had no materium army and could not have had a materium army that could threaten the Imperium without the HH happening.

It would have been better without the Heresy happening that's the whole point of it.

The original argument was me saying that Chaos did have real world armies pre Heresy.

It wouldn't have been better without the HH, it would be far far worse, how on earth can they start from nothing and then end up rivaling the Imperium it would have been impossible without the heresy, which is why the didn't do anything before the HH. they had no real world armies, they had cults spread here and there.

The Imperium would be better without the HH. I thought it was obvious I meant that.

An entire planet is not a "cult here and there". That one planet was just part of what Slaanesh had.

pm713 wrote:
The Imperium would be better without the HH. I thought it was obvious I meant that.

An entire planet is not a "cult here and there". That one planet was what just Slaanesh had.

You were saying Chaos was better without the HH. One entire planet is practically 0 in comparison to a million worlds the Imperium has. Why would the Imperium being better without it, be relevant to what we are talking about.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The Imperium would be better without the HH. I thought it was obvious I meant that.

An entire planet is not a "cult here and there". That one planet was what just Slaanesh had.

You were saying Chaos was better without the HH. One entire planet is practically 0 in comparison to a million worlds the Imperium has. Why would the Imperium being better without it, be relevant to what we are talking about.

No I said the IMPERIUM was better without the Heresy. It was relevant because you were going on about Chaos letting the Imperium reaching it's zenith in the Crusade.

No I didn't and why are you struggling with the concept that Chaos was widespread before the Imperium existed?

pm713 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The Imperium would be better without the HH. I thought it was obvious I meant that.

An entire planet is not a "cult here and there". That one planet was what just Slaanesh had.

You were saying Chaos was better without the HH. One entire planet is practically 0 in comparison to a million worlds the Imperium has. Why would the Imperium being better without it, be relevant to what we are talking about.

No I said the IMPERIUM was better without the Heresy. It was relevant because you were going on about Chaos letting the Imperium reaching it's zenith in the Crusade.

No I didn't and why are you struggling with the concept that Chaos was widespread before the Imperium existed?

No I said why would Chaos allow the Imperium to reach its Zenith before acting if they weren't looking for an army in the materium. I'm not struggling with that concept because that concept is 'wrong' Chaos was wide spreaded throughout the galaxy but as I said they were minor cults spread about the Galaxy, no threat to the Imperium whatsoever. Anyone who has read the HH know this. Every world that the warmaster came to, turned from the Imperium so as not to be destroyed, there were no planets ruled by chaos that went gladly, only opportunists, and only the mechanicum went to join chaos as they were hacked into with chaos tainted computer code. In the entire HH there has only been a handful of cults even mentioned, the davinites, the colchisians, the cadians. The Laer were the only planet and they were xenos anyways.

Well they didn't let the Imperium reach its peak did they?

What? Chaos wasn't a threat to to the Imperium? And your source for that is that they aren't mentioned? That's ridiculous.

pm713 wrote:
Well they didn't let the Imperium reach its peak did they?

What? Chaos wasn't a threat to to the Imperium? And your source for that is that they aren't mentioned? That's ridiculous.

Yes they did, the Imperium was at its peak during the great crusade. No, no materium army or cults that Chaos had were any threat whatsoever. The legion Astartes were the only threat and they turned them. Without the HH Chaos were no threat whatsoever, all they could do is have intermittent daemons come through to the materium and a handful of cults acting in their name. No human planet was completely ruled by chaos how on earth were chaos to go up against the Imperium without the Astartes etc? You haven't read much of the HH if you think they were a threat without the HH.

You realise that the Great Crusade wasn't the peak right? It was the uphill part that was setting things up for the Emperor. The Great Crusade was preparation for the peak that was supposed to be the Emperor leading humanity as a whole.

Honestly I'm questioning if you know anything about the setting now. Chaos has always been a huge threat, that's why the Emperor was so set on destroying it. That was one of his big goals. Unite humanity and destroy Chaos. You don't make it a major objective to destroy a non threat....

This has spiralled a lot from you just denying the fact that Chaos had control of Materium armies....

pm713 wrote:
You realise that the Great Crusade wasn't the peak right? It was the uphill part that was setting things up for the Emperor. The Great Crusade was preparation for the peak that was supposed to be the Emperor leading humanity as a whole.

Honestly I'm questioning if you know anything about the setting now. Chaos has always been a huge threat, that's why the Emperor was so set on destroying it. That was one of his big goals. Unite humanity and destroy Chaos. You don't make it a major objective to destroy a non threat....

This has spiralled a lot from you just denying the fact that Chaos had control of Materium armies....

It was at its peak, that was the highest the Imperium has ever been. It obviously could have gotten higher, that's irrelevant though because it 'didn't' We aren't talking about the setting just now that's just a cop-out. Chaos has always been a threat, potentially speaking, but at the time of the Great Crusade, before the HH it wasn't a threat to the Imperium. You are wrong, Chaos had 'no' armies except for the Laer, they had cults sprinkled around. Quote me anywhere where it said Chaos had an army in the materium during the Great Crusade, you can't. Even if you could find one or two which you can't, its still nothing in comparison to the Imperium and no threat whatsoever.

It's pretty relevant. Chaos made it's move during the Crusade because that was the ideal time to get what they wanted - the Imperium in constant stagnation.
Chaos has never wanted to destroy the Imperium in the way you're talking about. If they had then they'd have destroyed them in the Age of Strife.

pm713 wrote:
It's pretty relevant. Chaos made it's move during the Crusade because that was the ideal time to get what they wanted - the Imperium in constant stagnation.
Chaos has never wanted to destroy the Imperium in the way you're talking about. If they had then they'd have destroyed them in the Age of Strife.

So what are you arguing about ^ Chaos does want to destroy the Imperium, not mankind they want to enslave mankind but obviously they aren't going to keep the Imperium. I never said they wanted to destroy mankind.

Tzeentch knows everything and nothing at the same time because that's how Tzeentch is.

I always imagined chaos gods thoughts to be more akin to someone's brain on LSD. You know everything the universe does, intuitively. Time is meaningless and you can sense the connectedness of every thing and action.

But try to go buy a soda like that, let alone plan the workings of cults across the galaxy!

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You realise that the Great Crusade wasn't the peak right? It was the uphill part that was setting things up for the Emperor. The Great Crusade was preparation for the peak that was supposed to be the Emperor leading humanity as a whole.

Honestly I'm questioning if you know anything about the setting now. Chaos has always been a huge threat, that's why the Emperor was so set on destroying it. That was one of his big goals. Unite humanity and destroy Chaos. You don't make it a major objective to destroy a non threat....

This has spiralled a lot from you just denying the fact that Chaos had control of Materium armies....

It was at its peak, that was the highest the Imperium has ever been. It obviously could have gotten higher, that's irrelevant though because it 'didn't' We aren't talking about the setting just now that's just a cop-out. Chaos has always been a threat, potentially speaking, but at the time of the Great Crusade, before the HH it wasn't a threat to the Imperium. You are wrong, Chaos had 'no' armies except for the Laer, they had cults sprinkled around. Quote me anywhere where it said Chaos had an army in the materium during the Great Crusade, you can't. Even if you could find one or two which you can't, its still nothing in comparison to the Imperium and no threat whatsoever.

I’ve read a few things on here that you have been saying about chaos and really think you are missing the point. Chaos is about.....chaos. Disorder. Tzeentch especially just want change. U can’t think about them in universal terms. They exist beyond that, beyond physical laws and ideas. They don’t have personalities or emotions as we do but are discribed as such as it’s the only to comprehend what is going. It so anathema to mortals that it drives most of them insane on coantct. To try and measure a ‘gods’ knowledge is undoable. As was said before, they are.

They really don’t care about infrastructure and supply routes. In the heresey, as they have since they just used the mortals to create chaos. There is no in or lose. Just chaos. Humans are important now but before that it was the eldar who were played with. The need the mortal universe to exist in a ting and yang way but they aren’t running spreadsheets on success or failure. They are deities with power, knowledge and abilities beyond our comprehension. If you haven’t, read the realms of chaos books from 1st edition era. They are a wealth of great info on chaos a huge source of inspiration.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You realise that the Great Crusade wasn't the peak right? It was the uphill part that was setting things up for the Emperor. The Great Crusade was preparation for the peak that was supposed to be the Emperor leading humanity as a whole.

Honestly I'm questioning if you know anything about the setting now. Chaos has always been a huge threat, that's why the Emperor was so set on destroying it. That was one of his big goals. Unite humanity and destroy Chaos. You don't make it a major objective to destroy a non threat....

This has spiralled a lot from you just denying the fact that Chaos had control of Materium armies....

It was at its peak, that was the highest the Imperium has ever been. It obviously could have gotten higher, that's irrelevant though because it 'didn't' We aren't talking about the setting just now that's just a cop-out. Chaos has always been a threat, potentially speaking, but at the time of the Great Crusade, before the HH it wasn't a threat to the Imperium. You are wrong, Chaos had 'no' armies except for the Laer, they had cults sprinkled around. Quote me anywhere where it said Chaos had an army in the materium during the Great Crusade, you can't. Even if you could find one or two which you can't, its still nothing in comparison to the Imperium and no threat whatsoever.

I’ve read a few things on here that you have been saying about chaos and really think you are missing the point. Chaos is about.....chaos. Disorder. Tzeentch especially just want change. U can’t think about them in universal terms. They exist beyond that, beyond physical laws and ideas. They don’t have personalities or emotions as we do but are discribed as such as it’s the only to comprehend what is going. It so anathema to mortals that it drives most of them insane on coantct. To try and measure a ‘gods’ knowledge is undoable. As was said before, they are.

They really don’t care about infrastructure and supply routes. In the heresey, as they have since they just used the mortals to create chaos. There is no in or lose. Just chaos. Humans are important now but before that it was the eldar who were played with. The need the mortal universe to exist in a ting and yang way but they aren’t running spreadsheets on success or failure. They are deities with power, knowledge and abilities beyond our comprehension. If you haven’t, read the realms of chaos books from 1st edition era. They are a wealth of great info on chaos a huge source of inspiration.

Its funny how you are saying that you can't understand chaos while trying to describe their nature lol They have knowledge that's a fact, we can't know their nature but from their actions they 'have' to have knowledge end of. They do have personalities otherwise each would be the same, even their greater daemons do, they have emotions they are made of them, they show hate, lust etc. they just aren't the same as our emotions. Chaos do care about infrastructure and supply routes, what do you think the HH was about, they even have infrastructure and supply and demand on their own planets in the eye of terror. There is win or lose, otherwise they wouldn't meddle in the materium. Nurgle, especially Mortarion is literally running a tally of successes and failures lol why do you think they have tallymen. You've just shown your complete ignorance of chaos, just saying you can't understand them doesn't win an argument, you obviously need to read all the lore that came after the rogue trader years. When authors and characters say you can't undertand chaos or the warp, that's true but in a fundamental level. but that doesn't mean that everything they do cannot be understood, that's just faulty logic. Its like saying you can't understand Khonres need for blood, yeah but we can understand that is what he wants.

No mate you are missing the point and are simply wrong on this one. No ignorance here. The whole point is they are gods. Actual gods. Their knowledge is unknowable. Their plans are beyond the ken of mortals. Their emotions are such that they would shatter minds and destroy worlds. They aren’t measurable by material means. The best we can do is try to describe those emotions and thoughts in human terms that are lacking the power to really come close.

Why does nurgle keep a tally? What does he do with it? Why does he make some of his mortal followers takes this endless meaningless tally? Their is no knowable point. All he wants is chaos.

Chaos couldn’t give a damn about supply routes and all the rest of it. Nothing like that matters in the warp, time and distance are irrelevant. U are picturing chaos as ordered and structured. It’s the opposite. It’s CHAOS!

The heresy was about one thing only. Creating chaos. Would it have been better if Horus had won, yeah. Are they bothered, really? No. They are still gods all powerful in their realms.

The lore hasn’t changed. They just aren’t as good as describing it. Matt ward did a lot of damage to the chaos gods with his grey knights book but we can all agree that that didn’t happen right??

Various books still give good glimpses of the warp, like the dark eldar books by Andy chambers.

Andykp wrote:
No mate you are missing the point and are simply wrong on this one. No ignorance here. The whole point is they are gods. Actual gods. Their knowledge is unknowable. Their plans are beyond the ken of mortals. Their emotions are such that they would shatter minds and destroy worlds. They aren’t measurable by material means. The best we can do is try to describe those emotions and thoughts in human terms that are lacking the power to really come close.

Why does nurgle keep a tally? What does he do with it? Why does he make some of his mortal followers takes this endless meaningless tally? Their is no knowable point. All he wants is chaos.

Chaos couldn’t give a damn about supply routes and all the rest of it. Nothing like that matters in the warp, time and distance are irrelevant. U are picturing chaos as ordered and structured. It’s the opposite. It’s CHAOS!

The heresy was about one thing only. Creating chaos. Would it have been better if Horus had won, yeah. Are they bothered, really? No. They are still gods all powerful in their realms.

The lore hasn’t changed. They just aren’t as good as describing it. Matt ward did a lot of damage to the chaos gods with his grey knights book but we can all agree that that didn’t happen right??

Various books still give good glimpses of the warp, like the dark eldar books by Andy chambers.

We can't know them, but they have 'knowledge' so they will have a level of knowledge as to my question who has MORE knowledge, I didn't try to quantify the knowledge, yet again you are just using the warp is unknowable, I never said I know it. But they do HAVE knowledge, that is incontrovertible. Nurgle keeps a tally, for everything, its stated in the lore. Chaos do care about supply lines in the MATERIUM and the eye of terror. The Heresy wasn't about creating chaos, it was meticulously planed by chaos, carried out by Erebus Horus and Lorgar, Horus constantly consulted with people who could talk to the gods, he talked to them hinself, daemons have constantly told him what to do or what will happen if he does x, you think Chaos only acts chaotic without any meaning just because the warp can't be understood by mortals, you are wrong, planets in the eye of terror that are ruled by daemons are very organised, they trade constantly for slaves and resources. " Creating chaos. Would it have been better if Horus had won, yeah. Are they bothered, really? No. " you are trying to say what chaos thinks, dude your being ridiculous lol

I think of Tzeentch as knowing everything, and being completely looney toons.

Something many of my professors back in my academic days used to pontificate about what that even arithmetic was eventually inconsistent, so knowing everything that could be known about arithmetic would mean knowing inconsistent statements about arithmetic. And that's just arithmetic. I'd imagine the total sum of knowledge about everything would involve believing all sorts of crazy and contradictory things.

There's also the difference between knowing everything, and being able to focus your attention on a particular set of things. Humans, I've been told, can generally hold about 7-9 propositions at the forefront of their attention. The Ahriman series of books has this lovely thing about how parts of Ahriman's mind, like that of Magnus, have started wandering off on their own...

 Nurglitch wrote:
I think of Tzeentch as knowing everything, and being completely looney toons.

Something many of my professors back in my academic days used to pontificate about what that even arithmetic was eventually inconsistent, so knowing everything that could be known about arithmetic would mean knowing inconsistent statements about arithmetic. And that's just arithmetic. I'd imagine the total sum of knowledge about everything would involve believing all sorts of crazy and contradictory things.

There's also the difference between knowing everything, and being able to focus your attention on a particular set of things. Humans, I've been told, can generally hold about 7-9 propositions at the forefront of their attention. The Ahriman series of books has this lovely thing about how parts of Ahriman's mind, like that of Magnus, have started wandering off on their own...

I'm not arguing that, I don't think Tzeentch is is all knowing at all, he'd have been able to kill the Emperor in the HH if he knew everything.

Given that Tzeentch's best and most frequent opponent for his scheming is Tzeentch, I can imagine Tzeentch knowing everything and thinking it's hilarious for the Emperor to be hoist on his own petard.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Given that Tzeentch's best and most frequent opponent for his scheming is Tzeentch, I can imagine Tzeentch knowing everything and thinking it's hilarious for the Emperor to be hoist on his own petard.

He obviously doesn't fateweaver knows more about the future then Tzeentch. How has the Emperor been hoisted on his own petard... I suppose the traitor Primarchs could be considered that but we all know he'll die by drach'nyen without that Failbaddon wouldn't be able to kill him, plus I'd rather see Angron end the Emperors life, he could beat the gak out of Abaddon and steal his sword.

What's this stuff about drach'nyen? That's Abbadons sword with a special demon right?

pm713 wrote:
What's this stuff about drach'nyen? That's Abbadons sword with a special demon right?

The daemon 'end of empires' in drach'nyen is destined to kill the Emperor. The Emperor even agreed that the daemon would kill him when he confronted the end of empires, though he said that the daemon would not kill him now.

Appropriate way for him to die I suppose. Although I can think of others ways for him to be killed.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
No mate you are missing the point and are simply wrong on this one. No ignorance here. The whole point is they are gods. Actual gods. Their knowledge is unknowable. Their plans are beyond the ken of mortals. Their emotions are such that they would shatter minds and destroy worlds. They aren’t measurable by material means. The best we can do is try to describe those emotions and thoughts in human terms that are lacking the power to really come close.

Why does nurgle keep a tally? What does he do with it? Why does he make some of his mortal followers takes this endless meaningless tally? Their is no knowable point. All he wants is chaos.

Chaos couldn’t give a damn about supply routes and all the rest of it. Nothing like that matters in the warp, time and distance are irrelevant. U are picturing chaos as ordered and structured. It’s the opposite. It’s CHAOS!

The heresy was about one thing only. Creating chaos. Would it have been better if Horus had won, yeah. Are they bothered, really? No. They are still gods all powerful in their realms.

The lore hasn’t changed. They just aren’t as good as describing it. Matt ward did a lot of damage to the chaos gods with his grey knights book but we can all agree that that didn’t happen right??

Various books still give good glimpses of the warp, like the dark eldar books by Andy chambers.

We can't know them, but they have 'knowledge' so they will have a level of knowledge as to my question who has MORE knowledge, I didn't try to quantify the knowledge, yet again you are just using the warp is unknowable, I never said I know it. But they do HAVE knowledge, that is incontrovertible. Nurgle keeps a tally, for everything, its stated in the lore. Chaos do care about supply lines in the MATERIUM and the eye of terror. The Heresy wasn't about creating chaos, it was meticulously planed by chaos, carried out by Erebus Horus and Lorgar, Horus constantly consulted with people who could talk to the gods, he talked to them hinself, daemons have constantly told him what to do or what will happen if he does x, you think Chaos only acts chaotic without any meaning just because the warp can't be understood by mortals, you are wrong, planets in the eye of terror that are ruled by daemons are very organised, they trade constantly for slaves and resources. " Creating chaos. Would it have been better if Horus had won, yeah. Are they bothered, really? No. " you are trying to say what chaos thinks, dude your being ridiculous lol

I’m trying to say you are judging the chaos gofs by mortal standards. And you can not. Your scope for them is far too narrow. In the OP you list the order in which the gods are knowledgable, that’s really just trying to quantify them. What demons get up to in the eye of terror is a long way away from what the chaos gods care about. Infrastructure in the warp is meaningless because space and time are meaningless. The demons are immortal. You just seem unable or unwilling to open your mind to the idea that chaos gods don’t behave by universal rules. Your whole post is just you inviting people to be told they are wrong by you, and more often than not they are not. You might have read a lot of the novels but you’ve really missed the point of the heresey and of the chaos gods. I need to grasp that they are not just different or operating in a different place, they are completely “other”. They have no physical rules binding them. And thus, in the warp anything is possible. In the material world they are hamstrung by mundane physics so use mortals to their ends. The heresey was planned and schemed up by tzeentch and co but it was a lot more significant to the humans than the gods. They didn’t spend time on it because time doesn’t exist in the warp. They didn’t expend resources on it because there are no resources in the warp. They didn’t have to shift things from one bit to another. There are no distances, space is meaningless. Please god understand that it is only in the material world where supply lines matter. Or infrastructure in the warp the gods are all powerful, only challenged by other gods. They use humans as pawns. Nothing more than play things.

Andykp wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
No mate you are missing the point and are simply wrong on this one. No ignorance here. The whole point is they are gods. Actual gods. Their knowledge is unknowable. Their plans are beyond the ken of mortals. Their emotions are such that they would shatter minds and destroy worlds. They aren’t measurable by material means. The best we can do is try to describe those emotions and thoughts in human terms that are lacking the power to really come close.

Why does nurgle keep a tally? What does he do with it? Why does he make some of his mortal followers takes this endless meaningless tally? Their is no knowable point. All he wants is chaos.

Chaos couldn’t give a damn about supply routes and all the rest of it. Nothing like that matters in the warp, time and distance are irrelevant. U are picturing chaos as ordered and structured. It’s the opposite. It’s CHAOS!

The heresy was about one thing only. Creating chaos. Would it have been better if Horus had won, yeah. Are they bothered, really? No. They are still gods all powerful in their realms.

The lore hasn’t changed. They just aren’t as good as describing it. Matt ward did a lot of damage to the chaos gods with his grey knights book but we can all agree that that didn’t happen right??

Various books still give good glimpses of the warp, like the dark eldar books by Andy chambers.

We can't know them, but they have 'knowledge' so they will have a level of knowledge as to my question who has MORE knowledge, I didn't try to quantify the knowledge, yet again you are just using the warp is unknowable, I never said I know it. But they do HAVE knowledge, that is incontrovertible. Nurgle keeps a tally, for everything, its stated in the lore. Chaos do care about supply lines in the MATERIUM and the eye of terror. The Heresy wasn't about creating chaos, it was meticulously planed by chaos, carried out by Erebus Horus and Lorgar, Horus constantly consulted with people who could talk to the gods, he talked to them hinself, daemons have constantly told him what to do or what will happen if he does x, you think Chaos only acts chaotic without any meaning just because the warp can't be understood by mortals, you are wrong, planets in the eye of terror that are ruled by daemons are very organised, they trade constantly for slaves and resources. " Creating chaos. Would it have been better if Horus had won, yeah. Are they bothered, really? No. " you are trying to say what chaos thinks, dude your being ridiculous lol

I’m trying to say you are judging the chaos gofs by mortal standards. And you can not. Your scope for them is far too narrow. In the OP you list the order in which the gods are knowledgable, that’s really just trying to quantify them. What demons get up to in the eye of terror is a long way away from what the chaos gods care about. Infrastructure in the warp is meaningless because space and time are meaningless. The demons are immortal. You just seem unable or unwilling to open your mind to the idea that chaos gods don’t behave by universal rules. Your whole post is just you inviting people to be told they are wrong by you, and more often than not they are not. You might have read a lot of the novels but you’ve really missed the point of the heresey and of the chaos gods. I need to grasp that they are not just different or operating in a different place, they are completely “other”. They have no physical rules binding them. And thus, in the warp anything is possible. In the material world they are hamstrung by mundane physics so use mortals to their ends. The heresey was planned and schemed up by tzeentch and co but it was a lot more significant to the humans than the gods. They didn’t spend time on it because time doesn’t exist in the warp. They didn’t expend resources on it because there are no resources in the warp. They didn’t have to shift things from one bit to another. There are no distances, space is meaningless. Please god understand that it is only in the material world where supply lines matter. Or infrastructure in the warp the gods are all powerful, only challenged by other gods. They use humans as pawns. Nothing more than play things.

You are judging them by your standards, its so ridiculous that you are trying to say that you cannot understand the gods but you constantly say what the gods think or what they want. I listed what i 'thought' the order of their knowledge was. Saying who has the most is not quantifying, I'm saying who has the most not measuring their knowledge. How do you know what chaos care about? I didn't say the warp had infrastructure, I said they cared about the infrastructure in the materium during the HH. Otherwise why would they command Horus to take worlds and forge worlds. I do think and know that Chaos don't behave in a way that we do' but that doesn't mean nothing they do is dome in the same way or is similar and or, which is understandable to us. Khorne likes to martial combat, so do humans that's something we have in common which, we can understand, Tzeentch seeks knowledge that's something we have in common and we can understand. The gods are created from our emotions. Inviting people to be told their wrong, nonsense, I always end up doing that in all my threads because people are always getting the lore wrong. no they aren't, I back up all my points with the lore quotes or facts, I rarely have conversation where I don't, in this case its subjective though No you've missed the point of the Heresy, your knowledge of the lore is poor. They do have physical rules binding them, they can literally be binded, they cannot survive for ling in the materium, they can be banished, they can only take our souls if we bargain them. They cannot come into our universe any time they want, the Emperor battles them in the warp, so not everything is possible in the warp, daemons cannot go in the presence of the astronomicon, the gods cannot go into the other gods realms. The heresy was not planned and schemed up by tzeentch it was a collective plan, Eugene Temba was possessed by Nurgle, Khorne tried to turn Sanguinius etc. No where in the lore does it say Tzeentch planed it. You have terrible reading comprehension, the gods did need for things to be shifted from one place to the other in the MATERIUM during the HORUS HERESY. Yes I only ever said that infrastructure mattered in the materium or eye of terror, my original point is that they CARE about those infrastructures in the MATERIUM, jesus.

But I are so wrong on so many points. I’m saying they don’t care about what we want or think like we do. We only have the language we use to describe them. If in the 30years of 40k I’ve known the term lore has no meaning. What’s lore one day is myth the next or plain gone. Nothing is set in stone. Making assumptions about my reading comprehension is just rude. U don’t know me. U can’t judge me. I based my judgements on what I read from you and how every thread you start ends up with you telling everyone they are wrong and only you understand the law. A passage from a Horus heresy novel doesn’t prove you understand the chaos gods. Or gods in general. The term god implies a level of supreme power. You seem to lack the imagination to be able to see the chaos gods as anything other than normal people with normal motives and emotions.

Horne doesn’t like martial combat, he survives off it, he is made of it and all the hubris, dread, and excitement that comes with. Tzeentch is the changer of ways, the GOD of change. He doesn’t just “like” knowledge. He’s not an old chap in an armchair flicking through books. He is a god made of the chaos. If Horus had won, do you think the gods would’ve just sat back and said yay we won. Isn’t it all lovely. No tzeentch needs change. I say needs as no other mortal word can describe it.

Knowing “facts” without being able to read between the lines and see the bigger picture renders the facts as pointless. In the thread where you are arguing about the emperors deal it’s clear you have missed the subtlety of the story telling. So in short. I will never agree with you. You are wrong and have made some assumptions about the nature of chaos and have missed the point. Other people on this thread have a much better grasp of things than u. The one who said tzeentch knows everything but is bonkers is closer to the money than u. I suggest you do as I said earlier and read the older books and stories on the nature of chaos. It might broaden your understanding of the subject.

Andykp wrote:
But I are so wrong on so many points. I’m saying they don’t care about what we want or think like we do. We only have the language we use to describe them. If in the 30years of 40k I’ve known the term lore has no meaning. What’s lore one day is myth the next or plain gone. Nothing is set in stone. Making assumptions about my reading comprehension is just rude. U don’t know me. U can’t judge me. I based my judgements on what I read from you and how every thread you start ends up with you telling everyone they are wrong and only you understand the law. A passage from a Horus heresy novel doesn’t prove you understand the chaos gods. Or gods in general. The term god implies a level of supreme power. You seem to lack the imagination to be able to see the chaos gods as anything other than normal people with normal motives and emotions.

Horne doesn’t like martial combat, he survives off it, he is made of it and all the hubris, dread, and excitement that comes with. Tzeentch is the changer of ways, the GOD of change. He doesn’t just “like” knowledge. He’s not an old chap in an armchair flicking through books. He is a god made of the chaos. If Horus had won, do you think the gods would’ve just sat back and said yay we won. Isn’t it all lovely. No tzeentch needs change. I say needs as no other mortal word can describe it.

Knowing “facts” without being able to read between the lines and see the bigger picture renders the facts as pointless. In the thread where you are arguing about the emperors deal it’s clear you have missed the subtlety of the story telling. So in short. I will never agree with you. You are wrong and have made some assumptions about the nature of chaos and have missed the point. Other people on this thread have a much better grasp of things than u. The one who said tzeentch knows everything but is bonkers is closer to the money than u. I suggest you do as I said earlier and read the older books and stories on the nature of chaos. It might broaden your understanding of the subject.

They absolutely care about we we want or do. Saying I only right threads to prove people is rude as well and it has no basis you just said that because you can't handle a discussion where someone disagrees with you and says you're wrong, so if you want this to be civil then act civil. I never said I understand the gods, you make so many strawman arguments. I don't see them as normal people. This whole argument is about me saying they have knowledge and you said they don't because 'you can't understand anything chaos do'. " Horne doesn’t like martial combat, he survives off it" again you are saying what Khorne likes and what he doesn't, you keep doing what you are acusing me of doing, you keep applying your own logic to the gods and you keep saying what they want or like etc. You can't even follow your own logical inference. You said Tzeentch needs change, why? I thought you cannot know what the gods need or want, this is just exactly what I am saying, he has knowledge, just like you say he needs change, by your logic need isn't something you can apply to them, but yet you said he needs change, do you see how irrelevant your argument is, you are doing the exact same thing I was doing before you started to argue with me. If I am wrong, SO ARE YOU lol I cannot believe you can be arguing against something you are already doing.