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Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sportsmanship score: 40% of final result
Painting score: 40% of final result
Game points: 20% of final result

Problem solved.

And for those of us who wanted a game tournament and not a painting competition?

Also, Sportsmanship scores can easily by tanked by bad sports. Not on your side-on the other side. They can just say you were an asshat the whole time and give you 0 in every category, even if you weren't.

I tend to agree that making the wins and losses the most important criteria has a pretty ugly effect on the game's health.

I would be fine with having a more advanced sportsmanship score that is filled out by your opponent. The goal should be good, fun games with no cheating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sportsmanship score: 40% of final result
Painting score: 40% of final result
Game points: 20% of final result

Problem solved.

And for those of us who wanted a game tournament and not a painting competition?

Also, Sportsmanship scores can easily by tanked by bad sports. Not on your side-on the other side. They can just say you were an asshat the whole time and give you 0 in every category, even if you weren't.

If "That Guy" is an argument against sportsmanship it also equally applies to any thing else, such as chess clocks. Just saying.

 Marmatag wrote:
If "That Guy" is an argument against sportsmanship it also equally applies to any thing else, such as chess clocks. Just saying.

How so? You can cheat with a chess clock, sure, but what's easier-actually futzing with the clock, or just saying "Yeah, they were a dingus" and giving them 0s?

Wins and losses are really the only objective measure for a tournament. It's a fine system; it works. What's really needed is the proper framework built around it and a cultural shift to help players respond correctly.

First off: Chess Clocks. Yes, I've read every argument. No, I don't care, they work, they solve all sorts of problems that can't really be tracked any other way, and games finish. They give players total responsibility over their time management and improve the flow of the game.

Second, there really needs to be an organization among judges of major events. Collaborate, share the kind of calls you've responded to and create some guidelines on how to respond to them. They do not need to be public, just consistently enforced.

Finally, players need to change the way they perceive judges. They are arbiters, not enforcers and they should be a tool, not a weapon. The instant there's a disagreement, you call the judge to get a neutral ruling. Players shouldn't argue with each other; there's someone there with nothing better to do but hand out answers.

Along those lines, the judges answer is law, right or wrong and gameplay errors need to be primarily their fault and responsibility. There's value in an escalation or appeal process at larger events, but that's for the aforementioned judge document to work out.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sportsmanship score: 40% of final result
Painting score: 40% of final result
Game points: 20% of final result

Problem solved.

And for those of us who wanted a game tournament and not a painting competition?

Also, Sportsmanship scores can easily by tanked by bad sports. Not on your side-on the other side. They can just say you were an asshat the whole time and give you 0 in every category, even if you weren't.

Then play a competitive tournament-friendly game, like X wing maybe, and not one based on painting and fluff with inbalance and power creep ?

 godardc wrote:
Then play a competitive tournament-friendly game, like X wing maybe, and not one based on painting and fluff with inbalance and power creep ?

I think you're deflecting there. 40k can absolutely be a competitive tournament-friendly game, hence the existence of ITC and ETC, which wouldn't exist if the game were only based off painting and fluff. 40k is awesome because it can be a lot of different things for a lot of different people. Saying that this person is wrong because they're "playing the game wrong" is absolutely deflecting the issue.

For Sportsmanship, it's a nice thing, but entirely outside the scope of a penalty system. The NHL doesn't give out a sportsmanship award to the nicest team, they give the Stanley Cup for winning. Really bad sportsmanship, such as cheating or slow play with the purpose to misconstrue the natural conclusion of the game, can be regulated by a penalty system. I don't think that good sportsmanship cannot be measured. As such, while I think it's great for TO's to include a sportsmanship prize to encourage people to play nice, it's not something that I think should be regulated.

I propose the following be standardized

Improper/Illegal List - All offending models are removed from the list, play continues as normal. To support this, all lists should be required to use the same sources. People should have rulebooks. If you are going to a tourney and spending money, I expect you to know your rules.

Unpainted Army - Remove the offending models from the list. Move forward with play.

Loaded Dice - Removal from the event, placed on centralized list of known offenders. A second offense is a permanent ban from competitive scene.

Hiding Dice/Quick Rolling - Roll is invalidated, and is considered to be 100% failures (100% failure of to hit, to wound, or saves, etc.) 2nd offense results in the forfeiture of the game. Further offenses are reason for removal from the event.

Slow Play - Player calls TO. TO judges slow play. First offense brings out a clock to finish further turns on time. Failure to complete further turns in time allotted results in forfeiture of the game. The player will use the clock for their turns for the rest of the tournament, with the same second punishment.

Rules Error - 1st offense is a verbal correction from a judge. 2nd offense is a forfeiture of game. 3rd offense involves all units with that datasheet being used improperly being removed from play for the rest of the tournament.


Its not "KILL THE CHEATER, or PERMABAN" but I think it would be effective.

Let me offer a perspective here: maybe it's a bad idea to ask tournament organizers to do more than they are already doing. Or maybe it's a bad idea to ask too many things at the same time.

The thread about ATC is filled with distortions and gross lies. People are suggesting TOs are pocketing money, lying about what really happened, and generally creating a lot of drama that probably doesn't have much to do with fact.

There's a way to deal with problem people in a community. It probably doesn't involve putting more pressure on tournament organizers. They are volunteers who organize events out of the desire to see a community flourish. They are not criminals out to screw a group of people who play with toy soldiers.

People will cheat in games, whether intentionally or not. By a strict definition of not adhering solely to the rules, just about everyone I know could be called a cheater and I would be the first to defend them. Forcing TOs to make spot judgements and blacklist anyone who, in their estimation, did not live up to this high standard is a bad idea that will not work in the real world. Some people will end up on lists, sure, and that will not solve the problem.

To be clear: I don't think anyone would want to organize an event if this it meant they have to deal with a snitch culture. The only thing that a push for harsher penalties is going to lead to is fewer tournaments, more sophisticated cheating (since there's a system to game and we are gamers) and more drama. It's foolish to trust the current braying and think it's a reason to make decisions.

Drama has been a part of tournaments as long as I can remember, it's the reason I don't go to them anymore. I can't stand all the backstabbing and conniving that goes on between the people who were never going to win anything anyway. The facts really never support the kinds of conclusions people reach and it's painful to see anyone going down this road.

 iGuy91 wrote:

Hiding Dice/Quick Rolling - Roll is invalidated, and is considered to be 100% failures (100% failure of to hit, to wound, or saves, etc.) 2nd offense results in the forfeiture of the game. Further offenses are reason for removal from the event.

You have to be super careful about this or else its an easy tool for TFG to wield as a weapon.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sportsmanship score: 40% of final result
Painting score: 40% of final result
Game points: 20% of final result

Problem solved.

Sportsmanship is a terrible metric and I don't see why painting should count for more than points in a tournament setting.

 LunarSol wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Hiding Dice/Quick Rolling - Roll is invalidated, and is considered to be 100% failures (100% failure of to hit, to wound, or saves, etc.) 2nd offense results in the forfeiture of the game. Further offenses are reason for removal from the event.

You have to be super careful about this or else its an easy tool for TFG to wield as a weapon.

This is a fair point. That, or just provide each table with a dice box to roll in, and it won't be an issue perhaps instead?

Sportsmanship can be tanked by bad sports but so can points in a tournament. You can concede very early on and deny your opponent all kinds of points, i've seen it happen.

That guy is not an argument for or against something. It applies equally. An easy example of that guy with chess clocks is making a rules statement and refusing to back down. Time lost is time lost, a paused clock scenario currently doesn't refund time to both players. And, rounds end on time.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:

Hiding Dice/Quick Rolling - Roll is invalidated, and is considered to be 100% failures (100% failure of to hit, to wound, or saves, etc.) 2nd offense results in the forfeiture of the game. Further offenses are reason for removal from the event.

You have to be super careful about this or else its an easy tool for TFG to wield as a weapon.

This is a fair point. That, or just provide each table with a dice box to roll in, and it won't be an issue perhaps instead?

I've been curious if there's a good way to make a terrain piece that functions as a dice box for tournament games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Sportsmanship score: 40% of final result
Painting score: 40% of final result
Game points: 20% of final result

Problem solved.

Sportsmanship is a terrible metric and I don't see why painting should count for more than points in a tournament setting.

Nobody expects the Golden Demon finalists to play games to see who's the best painter.

That doesn't really explain why painting counts towards score. It's like going to a painting competition and saying "your paint is excellent but you lose games so you get 0 points."

Plus what about people who don't paint?

pm713 wrote:
That doesn't really explain why painting counts towards score. It's like going to a painting competition and saying "your paint is excellent but you lose games so you get 0 points."

Plus what about people who don't paint?

I don't think painting should be a component of the score. The fact that 3 color standard is required to play in tournaments is enough. Also, people who don't paint are still expected to field painted models.