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noexit1982 wrote:
I was on a waiting list to buy some books, which weren’t in stock, but now are for an additional $210 increase... due to the new dollar
Convenience they mandated for orders to the US

Are there any drop shipper like businesses in the UK? I had budgeted for the books properly, but won’t ever pay $800+ for 9 books

It’s no different than selling used items on eBay it looks like to me, as there is no VAT or tax implications...

So, not recasasts, or reprints... someone who I can have items shipped to then charges me a small fee and the shipping to me

Does that exist?

I know I could just send a friend when visiting too...

There is no legal implication at all.

There are plenty of mail forwarding services in the UK that you could use.

 Original Timmy wrote:
Try this anti-scalping FB group, which i believe was set up by Dakka member Mad Doc Grotsnik, im a member and have helped out a few over seas members get hold of WHW and event exclusives.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1710575492567307/?multi_permalinks=2014403055517881¬if_id=1533150229411125¬if_t=group_activity

They removed my post, sadly

They said it’s not in the spirit of the group, after improperly stating shipping costs and defending the US price change model

I may have found someone to help though

Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

Yeah it's not a legal matter so much as a moral one.

Personally I would never hold it against someone for going to a recaster because fw is too expensive, but some will.

hobojebus wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

Yeah it's not a legal matter so much as a moral one.

Personally I would never hold it against someone for going to a recaster because fw is too expensive, but some will.

no doubt, you're right


and those people are free to do whatever pleases themselves. end of the day, OP wants a legal way to circumvent FW prices, this would be my recommendation

Fw isn't cheap but overseas players are getting the short end of the stick.

Me I use third party stuff where I can instead like when I built my deathsworn, going retail it would of cost me over £60 easy but with eBay and some third party bits I got 10 guys done for just over £20.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

It's not legal in most countries to buy stolen goods. In this case the stolen goods are the intellectual Properties of Forge World being used by someone else to make a profit. Like it or not copyright infringement is a crime and purchasing products made via this method is, in effect, buying stolen goods.

The best way to avoid outrageous conversion fees is to pay in British pounds on the FW website. Either buy them yourself or use a trustworthy conversion place and pay by check, money order or, credit card as appropriate.

Side question: Why are recasts frowned up, but a well done conversion is ok?
Is it because of the effort put into it? Both cases would represent the model being used, and the recast would end up looking identical once painted.
So you'd have one instance where no one would know the difference and the other instance would just be a cool conversion

Regarding the resin melting: It happens, especially in southern heat like here in Texas. It can be pretty severe.
However, it also happens to the GW plastic at that heat, so....
Just don't leave your models in the car?

-

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

It's not legal in most countries to buy stolen goods. In this case the stolen goods are the intellectual Properties of Forge World being used by someone else to make a profit. Like it or not copyright infringement is a crime and purchasing products made via this method is, in effect, buying stolen goods.

That's not how the law works. At all. For starters, the law differentiates between "stealing" and "piracy", these two acts have different legal terms, because legally, they are two very different things. This transitional logic is complete bunk, and is not how the law works in any country I know of.

Galef wrote:Side question: Why are recasts frowned up, but a well done conversion is ok?
Is it because of the effort put into it? Both cases would represent the model being used, and the recast would end up looking identical once painted.
So you'd have one instance where no one would know the difference and the other instance would just be a cool conversion

This website is incapable of answering that question.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/688487.page



It's not a discussion that Dakka is rational enough to have. Try bringing it up around people you know feel that IRL, it's what I ended up doing, and conversation was a lot more productive when you remove from the equation the ability for people to just read a title and then rush for some perceived moral high ground without even bothering to slow down and think about the question.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

It's not legal in most countries to buy stolen goods. In this case the stolen goods are the intellectual Properties of Forge World being used by someone else to make a profit. Like it or not copyright infringement is a crime and purchasing products made via this method is, in effect, buying stolen goods.

That's not how the law works. At all. For starters, the law differentiates between "stealing" and "piracy", these two acts have different legal terms, because legally, they are two very different things. This transitional logic is complete bunk, and is not how the law works in any country I know of.

I would love to see how you differentiate piracy from theft in the legal sense. Piracy is just a specific form of theft legally. You are taking someone else's idea(s), in copyright issues, and depriving them of the income it would generate. If you are going to say that theft requires some tangible asset then you are not living in the modern age (see stealing identities or credit card information or even theft of services). There is no excuse for buying pirated goods from someone when it is for a luxury hobby. No one is entitled to play this, or any other, game. If you can not or will not pay the price that a merchant asks for his goods/services then you are free to seek them elsewhere but you can not turn around and buy that exact item from someone who does not own the rights to that item.

TL/DR if a person doesn't have the rights to a property that you purchase from them and you know that to be the case, then you are buying stolen property. I'm pretty sure that that's the way the law works in most parts of the world. Whether you are charged with that crime or not is a different matter.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

It's not legal in most countries to buy stolen goods. In this case the stolen goods are the intellectual Properties of Forge World being used by someone else to make a profit. Like it or not copyright infringement is a crime and purchasing products made via this method is, in effect, buying stolen goods.

That's not how the law works. At all. For starters, the law differentiates between "stealing" and "piracy", these two acts have different legal terms, because legally, they are two very different things. This transitional logic is complete bunk, and is not how the law works in any country I know of.

I would love to see how you differentiate piracy from theft in the legal sense. Piracy is just a specific form of theft legally. You are taking someone else's idea(s), in copyright issues, and depriving them of the income it would generate. If you are going to say that theft requires some tangible asset then you are not living in the modern age (see stealing identities or credit card information or even theft of services). There is no excuse for buying pirated goods from someone when it is for a luxury hobby. No one is entitled to play this, or any other, game. If you can not or will not pay the price that a merchant asks for his goods/services then you are free to seek them elsewhere but you can not turn around and buy that exact item from someone who does not own the rights to that item.

TL/DR if a person doesn't have the rights to a property that you purchase from them and you know that to be the case, then you are buying stolen property. I'm pretty sure that that's the way the law works in most parts of the world. Whether you are charged with that crime or not is a different matter.

Piracy is a law specifically given definition by the fact that the act of it does not involve the theft of any property, neither intellectual nor physical. You can get on your high horse about it all you like, but it does not change the way the law works. Your interpretation on the morals involved in it have absolutely zero relevance here, and telling someone "it's illegal because i think it should be illegal, and I think that because it feels like theft to me for these reasons" is just misinformation.

it's not theft. This is how the law works. If you feel like your laws are outdated take it up with your government. It's possible that purchasing recasts is also illegal in your country, or state, but that will have its own legislation, and it never becomes theft just because you willed it to be hard enough.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

It's not legal in most countries to buy stolen goods. In this case the stolen goods are the intellectual Properties of Forge World being used by someone else to make a profit. Like it or not copyright infringement is a crime and purchasing products made via this method is, in effect, buying stolen goods.

That's not how the law works. At all. For starters, the law differentiates between "stealing" and "piracy", these two acts have different legal terms, because legally, they are two very different things. This transitional logic is complete bunk, and is not how the law works in any country I know of.

I would love to see how you differentiate piracy from theft in the legal sense. Piracy is just a specific form of theft legally. You are taking someone else's idea(s), in copyright issues, and depriving them of the income it would generate. If you are going to say that theft requires some tangible asset then you are not living in the modern age (see stealing identities or credit card information or even theft of services). There is no excuse for buying pirated goods from someone when it is for a luxury hobby. No one is entitled to play this, or any other, game. If you can not or will not pay the price that a merchant asks for his goods/services then you are free to seek them elsewhere but you can not turn around and buy that exact item from someone who does not own the rights to that item.

TL/DR if a person doesn't have the rights to a property that you purchase from them and you know that to be the case, then you are buying stolen property. I'm pretty sure that that's the way the law works in most parts of the world. Whether you are charged with that crime or not is a different matter.

Piracy is a law specifically given definition by the fact that the act of it does not involve the theft of any property, neither intellectual nor physical. You can get on your high horse about it all you like, but it does not change the way the law works. Your interpretation on the morals involved in it have absolutely zero relevance here, and telling someone "it's illegal because i think it should be illegal, and I think that because it feels like theft to me for these reasons" is just misinformation.

it's not theft. This is how the law works. If you feel like your laws are outdated take it up with your government. It's possible that purchasing recasts is also illegal in your country, or state, but that will have its own legislation, and it never becomes theft just because you willed it to be hard enough.

Let's be a little more thoughtful here.

Theft is depriving someone from the lawful use of their physical, moveable property. For instance, if I grabbed your hat and walked away from it, that could be considered theft if I did it deliberately.

The only way using someone's intellectual, non-tangible property could be considered theft is if I prevented the rightful owner from using it. Let's say you drew a really good cartoon character and I took all the designs for it. You could come after me criminally for the theft of the designs. But even then it's the moveable physical property, the chattel, that's the subject of the charge.

The term 'theft' gets used in so many different ways, it really is one of the most popular terms in most cultures. These alternate uses rarely have anything to do with the law, it's really just code for saying 'you are a bad person for doing this.' Might was well just say doubleplus ungood, that phrase is really a synonym for all the "theft of" variants people banter about.

For the act of recasting to actually amount to theft, the recaster would have to do something that deprives GW of the ability to enjoy their property. For example, the recaster could steal the masters from GW and start printing their own miniatures, or something like that. It's not likely that's ever going to happen, and GW's recourse should be civil suits to shut down the recasters.

What you classify it as aside, is it illegal then?

Specifically we're talking about someone in the US purchasing a product from Russia or China that infringes a IP held in the UK.

another way is to just make your own models. there are plenty of counts as 40k models available for free download that one can print. it will not be an exact match by any stretch but will be wysiwyg. I do not have a 3d printer than can even close to pull GW quality infantry models, but vehicles and titans i can and thats with a pretty cheap $300 printer. might consider a better one now 20-30% increases means it makes more sense to buy a better SLA resin printer.

to reiterate I am not recommending printing GW models, I am saying you can find counts as models produced by artists for this purpose to not be infringing on GW/FW IP. also this means with te counts as some tournaments would nto allow them, but if you want them just for your own table or casual play then go for it.

Changing topics away from recasting, I've used mail forwarding services from the UK to the US and have been impressed every time. It's fairly straightforward and models arrived in a reasonable time (<2 weeks), plus was cheaper than buying new. Highly recommend.

 Galef wrote:
Side question: Why are recasts frowned up, but a well done conversion is ok?
-

A conversion is your own original work.

A recast has you (and the recaster) benefiting from someone else's work without compensating them.

Stux wrote:
Specifically we're talking about someone in the US purchasing a product from Russia or China that infringes a IP held in the UK.

Knowingly buying counterfeit goods (which recasts technically are) is legal in the US, and also in the UK. It is illegal in some other countries, such as France (don't try to go through French customs with a fake Rolex, for example). It's difficult to see how the authorities in any country would determine that your Fire Raptor was a Chinese recast, though. It's also unlikely they would care, even if it was technically illegal. It's fake designer handbags and shoes and watches they're interested in.

The legality of the actual IP infringement is only relevant to the recaster, not those who buy his stuff.

Personally, legality aside, I'd never knowingly buy recasts. I depend on the protections afforded by IP law to make a living, so I take it a bit more seriously than most.

I’m sure someone in China can give you some quality deals on forgeworld models.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Im pretty sure it's perfectly legal to buy recasts in most countries

It's not legal in most countries to buy stolen goods. In this case the stolen goods are the intellectual Properties of Forge World being used by someone else to make a profit. Like it or not copyright infringement is a crime and purchasing products made via this method is, in effect, buying stolen goods.

That's not how the law works. At all. For starters, the law differentiates between "stealing" and "piracy", these two acts have different legal terms, because legally, they are two very different things. This transitional logic is complete bunk, and is not how the law works in any country I know of.

I would love to see how you differentiate piracy from theft in the legal sense. Piracy is just a specific form of theft legally. You are taking someone else's idea(s), in copyright issues, and depriving them of the income it would generate. If you are going to say that theft requires some tangible asset then you are not living in the modern age (see stealing identities or credit card information or even theft of services). There is no excuse for buying pirated goods from someone when it is for a luxury hobby. No one is entitled to play this, or any other, game. If you can not or will not pay the price that a merchant asks for his goods/services then you are free to seek them elsewhere but you can not turn around and buy that exact item from someone who does not own the rights to that item.

TL/DR if a person doesn't have the rights to a property that you purchase from them and you know that to be the case, then you are buying stolen property. I'm pretty sure that that's the way the law works in most parts of the world. Whether you are charged with that crime or not is a different matter.

Piracy is a law specifically given definition by the fact that the act of it does not involve the theft of any property, neither intellectual nor physical. You can get on your high horse about it all you like, but it does not change the way the law works. Your interpretation on the morals involved in it have absolutely zero relevance here, and telling someone "it's illegal because i think it should be illegal, and I think that because it feels like theft to me for these reasons" is just misinformation.

it's not theft. This is how the law works. If you feel like your laws are outdated take it up with your government. It's possible that purchasing recasts is also illegal in your country, or state, but that will have its own legislation, and it never becomes theft just because you willed it to be hard enough.

Let's be a little more thoughtful here.

Theft is depriving someone from the lawful use of their physical, moveable property. For instance, if I grabbed your hat and walked away from it, that could be considered theft if I did it deliberately.

The only way using someone's intellectual, non-tangible property could be considered theft is if I prevented the rightful owner from using it. Let's say you drew a really good cartoon character and I took all the designs for it. You could come after me criminally for the theft of the designs. But even then it's the moveable physical property, the chattel, that's the subject of the charge.

The term 'theft' gets used in so many different ways, it really is one of the most popular terms in most cultures. These alternate uses rarely have anything to do with the law, it's really just code for saying 'you are a bad person for doing this.' Might was well just say doubleplus ungood, that phrase is really a synonym for all the "theft of" variants people banter about.

For the act of recasting to actually amount to theft, the recaster would have to do something that deprives GW of the ability to enjoy their property. For example, the recaster could steal the masters from GW and start printing their own miniatures, or something like that. It's not likely that's ever going to happen, and GW's recourse should be civil suits to shut down the recasters.

This post explains it really well though I don't think he's listening

This isn't the proper forum (no pun intended) to discuss the niceties of the law. If you don't think that you're violating the law and nobody comes to arrest/sue you then so be it. I'm not going to derail this thread over the legality of recasting any longer.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Side question: Why are recasts frowned up, but a well done conversion is ok?
-

A conversion is your own original work.

A recast has you (and the recaster) benefiting from someone else's work without compensating them.

This it's not exactly rocket science, also a conversion is likely to have at least 2 signficgent points of differance and thus not be copyright theft.

 Galef wrote:
Side question: Why are recasts frowned up, but a well done conversion is ok?
Is it because of the effort put into it? Both cases would represent the model being used, and the recast would end up looking identical once painted.
So you'd have one instance where no one would know the difference and the other instance would just be a cool conversion
-

A recaster is taking someone else's intellectual property, copying it, purporting it to be the original, and selling it to profit from someone else's work without compensating the actual creator.

A conversion is a unique work inspired by the original creation, is almost always distinct enough from the original to not be a copy, does not purport to be the original, and is generally for personal use rather than sale. The original creator also has a history of encouraging conversions in the case of GW.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
This isn't the proper forum (no pun intended) to discuss the niceties of the law. If you don't think that you're violating the law and nobody comes to arrest/sue you then so be it. I'm not going to derail this thread over the legality of recasting any longer.

Glad you were able to admit your mistake. Good luck out there.

Stux wrote:
What you classify it as aside, is it illegal then?

Specifically we're talking about someone in the US purchasing a product from Russia or China that infringes a IP held in the UK.

That's a really good question.

I'm familiar enough with import controls to know that ICE does seize counterfeit goods at the border. Typically, this is because the shipment is mislabeled and potentially harmful, in a lot of cases they are seizing knock-offs of controlled goods.

But AFAIK recasters don't do shipments so much as individual orders. If a recaster is claiming to be sending a genuine product, it might constitute mail fraud under the laws of China or Russia. And I am certain those countries' security forces would be happy to help prosecute the perp, you hear about their cooperation on IP matters all the time.

Note that neither of these situations has anything to do with the act of copying intellectual property. It's like when someone gets arrested for selling bootlegs on the street and is charged with loitering, cops care about nuisance not nuance.

Sorry, there's probably not anything criminal about selling recasts from those countries to the US. That doesn't make it right, but that's the way things are.

Someone mentioned the French laws about counterfeit brand-name goods. I'm not even sure that would help GW, my understanding is the law is there to protect French brands. There's a registration process that's difficult for brands from other countries. I don't know all the details but I know you can get away with selling knock-off Vera Bradleys but you will get shut down quick for selling anything but genuine Louis Vittons. Especially around Paris, there are actually brand cops.

All this said, do you really think the high prices will push people to use recasters? I get a little excited when I order something from FW, I don't think I would get the same thrill waiting for a package from China.

 techsoldaten wrote:

All this said, do you really think the high prices will push people to use recasters?

Yes.

ccs wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

All this said, do you really think the high prices will push people to use recasters?

Yes.

Agreed, I know several people that have already shifted over, even after i offered to buy proper FW for them and send it, this price debacle has really soured FWs reputation.

If you want to buy Forge World models ask Dakka. I remember when I wanted to buy Conforntation and AT-43 models from Miniatures Market. These came in excessively bulky packaging. I asked a forum member on the Battletech forums for help. Someone agreed. I bought the orders and shipped them to his home, he then deboxed them reducing volume by about 80% and placed the lot in a cardboard box. I asked for shipping this way as I figured fixing any breakages was worth the shipping cost reductions (which ended up being the case).

We had a reciprocal agreement by which I would do same.

Beauty was by removing formal packaging the goods were formally second hand and incomplete and could be legally set an arbitrary customs value, It turned what would be an insanely bulky and complex and expensive international order into a simple cheap one.

Now Forgeworld is different, Confrontation PPP miniatures on firesale were a dirt cheap product made artificially expensive for shipping through excess packaging, Forgeworld is not big on packaging and the items are inherently orders of magnitude more expensive, and shipping books cant realistically be denatured to lower costs.

However if the OP trades on swap shop with anyone from the UK and has a trade rapport maybe a deal can be set. It is easier of course if a reciprocal arrangement is made.

The best question to start with is to ask what anyone in the UK wants depackaged and shipped from the US in return for a redelivery of Forgeworld.

It is nevertheless inherently scarier than what I was doing, which are redirection of chump change orders. One Forgeworld model can cost as much as all the $4-$10 bargain bin Confrontation miniature sets I got in the firesale.