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Unless you want to spam big tanks which are points inefficient or Marauders then I really wouldn't bother with R&H.

And that is one of my armies!

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Unless you want to spam big tanks which are points inefficient or Marauders then I really wouldn't bother with R&H.

And that is one of my armies!

Meh, up to a 1000 pts you actually can somewhat compete with others.
Just don't take battalions, and go for a full elites list (made out of Disciples, command disciples and marauders supported with tanks and the odd psyker.)
But then again we are standing infront of the codex that could represent nearly anything to now in 8th having degenrated into a bunch of murder hobos, in this cas, well armed murder hobos.

Take 98 Mutants and two Enforcers, put them in two Gorgons, profit. Also, look into how to maximize HWTs; you can make two HWTs from one sprue relatively easily if you build one bipod and one tripod.

EDIT - FWIW, R&H are a perfectly serviceable stand-alone Faction in almost any casual meta. If you simply want to win (which is fine, if that's what you're into), R&H aren't for you and you should just build 15 Custodes Captains on Bikes and a Knight like everyone else.

Also, I'm advised that bickering over rules, the operation of which are utterly obvious to anyone with an adult level of literacy, goes in YMDC as do the attendant 'no u' comments.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Take 98 Mutants and two Enforcers, put them in two Gorgons, profit. Also, look into how to maximize HWTs; you can make two HWTs from one sprue relatively easily if you build one bipod and one tripod.

EDIT - FWIW, R&H are a perfectly serviceable stand-alone Faction in almost any casual meta. If you simply want to win (which is fine, if that's what you're into), R&H aren't for you and you should just build 15 Custodes Captains on Bikes and a Knight like everyone else.

Also, I'm advised that bickering over rules, the operation of which are utterly obvious to anyone with an adult level of literacy, goes in YMDC as do the attendant 'no u' comments.

I like to play competitive games and the odd tournament, but I am more interested in having an army I enjoy than always winning! As I mentioned earlier, I play mono-Slaanesh, who is pretty much the least competitive of the gods in any form (though he does have some nice tricks this edition for CSM). I find that coming in with an off brand army usually helps me against some of the standard meta guys who come in for tournaments because they just don't know what to target and end up making mistakes while I pretty much always know what needs to go off the table first if its a fotm list.

So yeah, R&H looks like it has some good fun in store for me with some decent tactical additions! Even mediocre units can shine on occassion when partnered with the right list. I feel like I have a good grasp on the infantry strengths and weaknesses, though I am still torn on the marauder load out. I would be interested in anyone's idea of what vehicles might be worth bringing along though. Playing against Lemon Russ Tanks always filled me with envy, but looking at them as potential on my list and I am just coming up short with where I would want them. If it was anti-infantry, sure, that 20 shot cannon that can shoot twice looks sexy, but it seems like it wouldn't do great against armor for its price point.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Take 98 Mutants and two Enforcers, put them in two Gorgons, profit. Also, look into how to maximize HWTs; you can make two HWTs from one sprue relatively easily if you build one bipod and one tripod.

EDIT - FWIW, R&H are a perfectly serviceable stand-alone Faction in almost any casual meta. If you simply want to win (which is fine, if that's what you're into), R&H aren't for you and you should just build 15 Custodes Captains on Bikes and a Knight like everyone else.

Also, I'm advised that bickering over rules, the operation of which are utterly obvious to anyone with an adult level of literacy, goes in YMDC as do the attendant 'no u' comments.

Can R&H take gorgons?
I can't find the entry did they again FAQ? (They didn't btw)

Excuse me btw i belive that this discussion was also not really in the "No u" sphere as you so eloquently put it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kias wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Take 98 Mutants and two Enforcers, put them in two Gorgons, profit. Also, look into how to maximize HWTs; you can make two HWTs from one sprue relatively easily if you build one bipod and one tripod.

EDIT - FWIW, R&H are a perfectly serviceable stand-alone Faction in almost any casual meta. If you simply want to win (which is fine, if that's what you're into), R&H aren't for you and you should just build 15 Custodes Captains on Bikes and a Knight like everyone else.

Also, I'm advised that bickering over rules, the operation of which are utterly obvious to anyone with an adult level of literacy, goes in YMDC as do the attendant 'no u' comments.

I like to play competitive games and the odd tournament, but I am more interested in having an army I enjoy than always winning! As I mentioned earlier, I play mono-Slaanesh, who is pretty much the least competitive of the gods in any form (though he does have some nice tricks this edition for CSM). I find that coming in with an off brand army usually helps me against some of the standard meta guys who come in for tournaments because they just don't know what to target and end up making mistakes while I pretty much always know what needs to go off the table first if its a fotm list.

So yeah, R&H looks like it has some good fun in store for me with some decent tactical additions! Even mediocre units can shine on occassion when partnered with the right list. I feel like I have a good grasp on the infantry strengths and weaknesses, though I am still torn on the marauder load out. I would be interested in anyone's idea of what vehicles might be worth bringing along though. Playing against Lemon Russ Tanks always filled me with envy, but looking at them as potential on my list and I am just coming up short with where I would want them. If it was anti-infantry, sure, that 20 shot cannon that can shoot twice looks sexy, but it seems like it wouldn't do great against armor for its price point.

Leman russ battle tanks for everything. They offer the best compromise of AT and anti mob duty.
If you expect a green tide list, take a punisher fully kitted out (Heavy stubber, 3 heavy bolter)
Frankly the bog standard Leman russ with a hull heavy bolter and a battlecannon allready is a great choice and cheap at what he can do. Exterminators (the dual autocannon version ) are for whatever reason more expensive then a battlecannon version and do less work against armor. Demolishers are somewhat difficult to justify but can do work if need be, the short range is somewhat off putting sometimes.

If you want distraction units you might like ogryn berserkers. They come with a nasty punch and can be delivered in a valkyrie for a nasty alpha strike surprise, altough personally they do better as a conter unit. Chaos spawn ofcourse is also a nice distraction carnifex unit, for it's price it is durable enough. Can't say i am a fan of Sentinels, might has to do that i take more along the line of disciples and command squads with at weaponry and field gun batteries, ( take a look at the thudd gun or the heavy mortar, can do surprisngly well)

Bummer. There goes that idea.

My wallet rejoices.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Bummer. There goes that idea.

My wallet rejoices.

Now hold on there, if you really want mutants, you could always run something like this:

Battalion detachment: 5cp
2x Renegade commander, 50 pts.

3x 50 mutants 600 pts

Vanguard detachmant: 1cp
Renegade commander 25 pts

3x Enforcer 90 pts

3x 4command squad disciples, Banner (the one that let's you strike back if you die) 102 pts

Total 867 pts.

Nothing of this list runs due to morale, forcing your enemy to wipe it, On a charge you have s4. If you are lucky you gain T4, you still have 168 autoguns or other weaponry on the field. Generates 6 CP and in a Chaos army you'll get battleforged which are another 3 CP. (the whole R&H part of the army now also feels like a soviet mass assult, so feel free to play the anthem after you deployed)

An additional CSM detachment (proably Battalion for an additional 5 cp) now can concentrate on Heavy infantry (min squad CSM's with some heavy weaponry) Kyborgs for AT duty, Sorcerers. One or the other Chaos vehicle (decimators, leviathans , dakka brutes, all the stuff that requires bubblewrap) One or the Other Renegade knight would also be an option, in such a scenario but i feel like the base CSM codex has more to offer there in terms of versatility.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
EDIT - FWIW, R&H are a perfectly serviceable stand-alone Faction in almost any casual meta. If you simply want to win (which is fine, if that's what you're into), R&H aren't for you and you should just build 15 Custodes Captains on Bikes and a Knight like everyone else.

I don't consider myself a WAAC or even a competitive player, but the prospect of paying the same price as a Guardsman for a Militiaman with worse BS, worse save, worse Ld, no orders, and worse 'doctrine' really rubs me the wrong way, especially when you used to be able to take basically Guardsmen in the R&H list.

I've taken to running my Renegade Militia as Catachans, and it feels closer to how they operated when I bought them back in 4th.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Bummer. There goes that idea.

My wallet rejoices.

Now hold on there, if you really want mutants, you could always run something like this:

Battalion detachment: 5cp
2x Renegade commander, 50 pts.

3x 50 mutants 600 pts

Vanguard detachmant: 1cp
Renegade commander 25 pts

3x Enforcer 90 pts

3x 4command squad disciples, Banner (the one that let's you strike back if you die) 102 pts

Total 867 pts.

Nothing of this list runs due to morale, forcing your enemy to wipe it, On a charge you have s4. If you are lucky you gain T4, you still have 168 autoguns or other weaponry on the field. Generates 6 CP and in a Chaos army you'll get battleforged which are another 3 CP. (the whole R&H part of the army now also feels like a soviet mass assult, so feel free to play the anthem after you deployed)

An additional CSM detachment (proably Battalion for an additional 5 cp) now can concentrate on Heavy infantry (min squad CSM's with some heavy weaponry) Kyborgs for AT duty, Sorcerers. One or the other Chaos vehicle (decimators, leviathans , dakka brutes, all the stuff that requires bubblewrap) One or the Other Renegade knight would also be an option, in such a scenario but i feel like the base CSM codex has more to offer there in terms of versatility.

Nah, the Gorgons were the main draw honestly.

I appreciate the thoughts, but my guys are primarily designed for fluff, not crunch. Morale tests will be passed, if Slaanesh wills it.

catbarf wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
EDIT - FWIW, R&H are a perfectly serviceable stand-alone Faction in almost any casual meta. If you simply want to win (which is fine, if that's what you're into), R&H aren't for you and you should just build 15 Custodes Captains on Bikes and a Knight like everyone else.

I don't consider myself a WAAC or even a competitive player, but the prospect of paying the same price as a Guardsman for a Militiaman with worse BS, worse save, worse Ld, no orders, and worse 'doctrine' really rubs me the wrong way, especially when you used to be able to take basically Guardsmen in the R&H list.

As well it should. That R&H perform worse than AM doesn't really speak to whether R&H are a viable stand-alone in a casual meta, though.

Nope r&h should get cheaper or equal stats militia, the random morale is allready enough drawback.
Militia was also 3ppm in 7the, and upgradable to a fluffy traitor guard for equal ppm

While R&H Cultists cost the same as Militia but can shoot and fight better than them...

I don't disagree with either of you; there are huge issues with the current incarnation of R&H, which is decidedly less powerful than its previous incarnation.

I'd prefer it went back to 3ppm with the Military Training option, so that people who want crazed gangs of hivers can have them and people who want Traitor Guard can have them, too, rather than a blanket equal points cost and equal stats. There needs to be an accounting for the lack of Orders, too. A 4+/+4+ unit that can receive Orders is a lot more powerful than a 4+/4+ unit that can't, so I don't see why both should cost the same. Or perhaps it is AM Officers that need to be redressed.

But, you know, wish in one hand and [Expletive Deleted] in the other, see which fills up first.

The conspiracy theorist in me has to wonder about the poor state of R&H, and the huge nerfs to it in 8th. Giving it a bunch of nerfs and removing a load of the fun options, and then FW removes the entire lineup from the store, makes it seem like they have decided to just squat the entire army.

Make it terrible so people stop playing it, meaning that when they remove the model line they get a lot less complaints.

When incompetence suffices, I have a hard time using conspiracy as an explanation.

FW is renowned for sloppily-written, seemingly rushed books stuffed full of typos and IA - Index: FotAM is noteworthy even by those dismally low standards.

The Ogryn Brutes Datasheet, for example, specifies that the unit consists of three Brutes and includes a stat-line for a Berzerker Boss, but nowhere are you given permission to actually include one in the unit. You can only add more Brutes.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
When incompetence suffices, I have a hard time using conspiracy as an explanation.

FW is renowned for sloppily-written, seemingly rushed books stuffed full of typos and IA - Index: FotAM is noteworthy even by those dismally low standards.

The Ogryn Brutes Datasheet, for example, specifies that the unit consists of three Brutes and includes a stat-line for a Berzerker Boss, but nowhere are you given permission to actually include one in the unit. You can only add more Brutes.

Well yes and no. Generally speaking the 7th edition R&H in IA13 were far from broken in both regards. The really bonkers stuff came out with the rework of Vraks and certain formations that should've never existed (purge detachment, dangerous terran from all blast weapons on an army with Thuddguns in the troopsslot? or Master of the horde in combination with the unending host from Vraks, hiuray for recycling units at 2 + with outflank.... .)
So i am however wondering, how they went so bad with a obviously beloved faction that was well written in the first place.

Altough incompetence would surely explain it still the best and seems mostlikely.
FW in 8th however is a whole other story and what with rumors propping up that they were kept out of the loop and their subdivision boss falling out of favour on GW mainline this very well be some internal politiking which the players now suffer under.
Also ogryn brutes are by far not the worst written entry, just look at enforcers or commanders, they didn't get the Charachter Keyword, or command squads 4-14 with no rule to attach the commander for whatever reason. Or the Cultist entry, which to this day is still not correctly copypasted (limit of 30 models comapred to the 40 CSM gets).

Then there is the fact that at the start you could not even take transports thanks to missing Keywords, etc. Or half the options missing compared to the previous lists such as acess to artilery, you know the one core unit beyond militia?
How that book ever got greenlit is beyond me.

Brutes were just an example off the top of my head. I'm not home and don't have my books.

FWIW, the other issues you brought up were all FAQed, at least. The Brutes/Boss thing wasn't. At least, not in the October 2017 FAQ. Is there a newer one?

But yeah, the book is a travesty.

Not to my knowledge.
However i just read the entry and realized that the brute Champion has no combat drugs?!?

I don't know, without checking.

You can't include one anyway, so wargear is somewhat moot.

Yeh the brutes stuff all seems to be wrong. Like there was not keywords for the beasts on the ogryn beast squad, so I guess they could be taken in a transport...

Also combat drugs don't seem to have an expiry, so if you keep drugging you can just keep stacking extra attacks every turn. Not sure if that was intended or not, maybe the death is meant to signify overdose.

That's just off the top of my head too, not sure if they were fixed or if I'm remembering wrong, but there were definitely a lot of issues with them.

Niiru wrote:

The conspiracy theorist in me has to wonder about the poor state of R&H, and the huge nerfs to it in 8th. Giving it a bunch of nerfs and removing a load of the fun options, and then FW removes the entire lineup from the store, makes it seem like they have decided to just squat the entire army.

Make it terrible so people stop playing it, meaning that when they remove the model line they get a lot less complaints.

The Death Korps is one of FW's better-selling lines, and their army list in the same Index is chock-full of oversights, omissions, and shoddy balance, as well as combining the Assault and Siege lists into one while removing some of the fluffier rules and abilities.

I don't think their mishandling of R&H is intentional, just the result of an incredibly rushed book and the impact of losing Alan Bligh. But that said, I won't be surprised if this is it for the Renegades for the foreseeable future. Without an official model range it seems unlikely that GW will do much with them, short of returning as an entire faction (with new models) at some point.

catbarf wrote:

Niiru wrote:

The conspiracy theorist in me has to wonder about the poor state of R&H, and the huge nerfs to it in 8th. Giving it a bunch of nerfs and removing a load of the fun options, and then FW removes the entire lineup from the store, makes it seem like they have decided to just squat the entire army.

Make it terrible so people stop playing it, meaning that when they remove the model line they get a lot less complaints.

The Death Korps is one of FW's better-selling lines, and their army list in the same Index is chock-full of oversights, omissions, and shoddy balance, as well as combining the Assault and Siege lists into one while removing some of the fluffier rules and abilities.

I don't think their mishandling of R&H is intentional, just the result of an incredibly rushed book and the impact of losing Alan Bligh. But that said, I won't be surprised if this is it for the Renegades for the foreseeable future. Without an official model range it seems unlikely that GW will do much with them, short of returning as an entire faction (with new models) at some point.

Or they remove them from fw and introduce them into main gw lineup as to finally release a Cultist box and to further push the Chaos vs imperium schtick they have going on atm.

I am still surprised that we did not get a proper Cultist Box anyways.

Edit; i mean all the shekels they miss out for another 40chf Box with limited options? So unlike gw.

FW for various reasons seems to be a hot mess right now. The Heresy is on a stand still, we've been waiting for the admech vs tau book for what 4 or 5 years and almost two years in we have had no new IA books. I think R&H will get a new line down the road. That said it's always surprised me that GW has never made a real cultist box with all the options they can take.

Well ever since i found out anvil is a thing and fw decided to preemptive squad armies i've become an avid kitbasher and improvisator.

Ordered 2 weeks ago from anvil, for field artillery and marauders, worth it the only thing i can say about it.

I wanted to use DKoK with the 'ushanka' heads from Puppets War, but it doubled the cost of the force I had planned compared to using Cadians or Catachans, so I use Cadians.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I wanted to use DKoK with the 'ushanka' heads from Puppets War, but it doubled the cost of the force I had planned compared to using Cadians or Catachans, so I use Cadians.

Why would you abuse glorious Dkok with ushanka hats? One shudders to imagine the horrors of them , krauts with soviet hats... Terrible, it's the berlin wall all over again!

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I wanted to use DKoK with the 'ushanka' heads from Puppets War, but it doubled the cost of the force I had planned compared to using Cadians or Catachans, so I use Cadians.

Why would you abuse glorious Dkok with ushanka hats? One shudders to imagine the horrors of them , krauts with soviet hats... Terrible, it's the berlin wall all over again!

'Cause my entire 'soup' is based loosely on the Kronstadt Rebellion and my R&H are based specifically on the Red Army.

Now you 've redeemed yourself all jokes aside, if you run soviet r&h how many nkvd errrrm i mean command squads do you run, and even more important have all of them banners?

Just the one Command Squad, but not related to the NKVD. Will have a lovely red and yellow banner, yes. I have a different idea for NKVD involving Enforcers in blue trousers and caps.

I have a plog in the P&M section, if you want to check it out. Early days though. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/762359.page

I don’t know anything about this army but can they do the IG thing and bring 3 squads and two cheap HQ for like 160 as a CP battery? If so they would be good.

2x Commanders = 50
Cultist squad = 40

Battallion = ...170 points.

But the IG battallion ends up with some pretty strong units because of orders. These cultists are just bog-standard cultists with no orders and no legion traits or anything.

It's still the cheapest battallion that Chaos can field though.

You could instead go with:

2x Exalted Champion
3x10 Cultists (that get actual legion traits and stratagems etc)

Total = 260 points. But has way better units.


OR

Whatever the daemons one is. 3x10 horrors, or 3x3 nurglings. With a couple heralds that actually buff their troops. Also ends up as something like 260 points though.


So yeh, the R&H battallion is cheaper, but it's also worse, so you get what you pay for. But if all you want it for is a cheap CP battery and screen, then it'll work.

Usually it's just better to add 30 cultists to whatever detachment you're taking and turn it into a battallion though.

No matter how crappy they are I would probably pay 170 points for just 5 CP so the screen is bonus. Plus I play TS so my cultists suck anyway