Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah it requires 100% group participation to not ruin someone's day. It only takes that one guy.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Fortunately my group understands tourney tier vs normal and we do not run one against the other. But that is exactly it; we go out of our way to avoid it.

What do you guys play mostly then? Tourney tier or normal? Just curious.

Davor wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Fortunately my group understands tourney tier vs normal and we do not run one against the other. But that is exactly it; we go out of our way to avoid it.

What do you guys play mostly then? Tourney tier or normal? Just curious.

Technically neither because it's Path to Glory but I would say normal because only some of us do tournaments. It is default assumed one is not bringing an optimized list; we will confirm ahead of time if we are looking for a tourney practice game.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Davor wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Fortunately my group understands tourney tier vs normal and we do not run one against the other. But that is exactly it; we go out of our way to avoid it.

What do you guys play mostly then? Tourney tier or normal? Just curious.

Technically neither because it's Path to Glory but I would say normal because only some of us do tournaments. It is default assumed one is not bringing an optimized list; we will confirm ahead of time if we are looking for a tourney practice game.

Looks like you have a good gaming group then from what I have been reading from you.

Yes I lucked out and rolled a 6

I would say that my group plays kind of a optimized casual. We do has some tournament players but they will let you know when they are practicing for a tournament and even I have never seen them run a "net lists".

How many mortal wounds on average are they pushing a turn and how many free points are they usually getting on average from summoning?

Wow I don't keep track of stuff like that. How many points are 2 units of Blue Horrors and a unit of Screamers worth.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
Wow I don't keep track of stuff like that. How many points are 2 units of Blue Horrors and a unit of Screamers worth.

300

auticus wrote:
How many mortal wounds on average are they pushing a turn and how many free points are they usually getting on average from summoning?

Regular: 0-10; 100-350
Tournament: 30-40; 200-1000

Thats about what I see too.

The regular campaign stuff is about 15 mortal wounds a turn average and no one goes over 400 points (i'd say average is about 350 as well) and outside of campaign they average about 35-45 mortal wounds a turn and 800-1000 points summoning on average.

The litmus test here is if you aren't able to reliably push 30 mortal wounds a turn don't bother showing up and if you're summoning and not breaching 500 points in the game, again don't bother showing up.

I will say there is a butter zone where armies can do neither but do enough of each that they can still excel, though they require a more skilled player to do so.

I can see that.

My Blades of Khorne list that has been doing well is below. Last two games went very well for me.



Edit: Slaughterpriests + Warshrine all have Blood Sacrifice. This is why I'm summoning so much.

I manage to summon around 800 points a game over 4 turns (haven't gotten to a turn 5 yet but I would have summoned even more). I usually summon Flesh Hounds and 5 man units of Bloodletters. Flesh Hounds can't really kill things but they are tough and tend to stop the enemy's advance in their tracks. I usually summon about 400 points of Flesh Hounds in 5 man units, so 100 points each. If they're in range of my Secrator they get an extra attack, so they get 5 attacks each usually. They appear, charge in (rerolling charge), hold the enemy unit down and/or whittle them down.

I was able to weather a storm of mortal wounds from a Tzeentch army and the endless charge phase from an Ork Iron Jaws army. I was on the fence on if this strategy would work or not but the ability to replace all my mortals with Daemons over the course of the battle just seems to work. After the initial skirmishing between my Blood Warriors and Khorgoraths deal with the enemy battleline units, MSU Flesh Hounds + Bloodletters deal with the rest.

 andysonic1 wrote:
My Blades of Khorne list that has been doing well is below. Last two games went very well for me.

Spoiler:

Edit: Slaughterpriests + Warshrine all have Blood Sacrifice. This is why I'm summoning so much.

I manage to summon around 800 points a game over 4 turns (haven't gotten to a turn 5 yet but I would have summoned even more). I usually summon Flesh Hounds and 5 man units of Bloodletters. Flesh Hounds can't really kill things but they are tough and tend to stop the enemy's advance in their tracks. I usually summon about 400 points of Flesh Hounds in 5 man units, so 100 points each. If they're in range of my Secrator they get an extra attack, so they get 5 attacks each usually. They appear, charge in (rerolling charge), hold the enemy unit down and/or whittle them down.

I was able to weather a storm of mortal wounds from a Tzeentch army and the endless charge phase from an Ork Iron Jaws army. I was on the fence on if this strategy would work or not but the ability to replace all my mortals with Daemons over the course of the battle just seems to work. After the initial skirmishing between my Blood Warriors and Khorgoraths deal with the enemy battleline units, MSU Flesh Hounds + Bloodletters deal with the rest.

Heh, nice. Goes to show even the 'tame' summon systems break when pushed.

I'm told thats not broken, its "working as intended".

Sucks for the armies that can't keep up though!

I wouldn't call having the ability to go toe to toe with harder lists "pushing the system to breakage", lol. By turn three most of my original army is dead or dying. If my Blood Sacrifice rolls fail me, I'm screwed. It's not OP at all.

Its not OP so long as you are going against other optimized powerlists, agreed.

You are really invested in pushing that narrative, aren't you? I'm sorry you have a meta full of jerks, but most of the people here seem fully capable of talking to their opponent before hand.

auticus wrote:
Its not OP so long as you are going against other optimized powerlists, agreed.

I don't believe my list is optimized and I don't believe my opponent lists were also not fully optimized, but it was a tournament setting so we were all trying to win. I guess if someone is just going for a 100% fluffy list than all our lists would seem OP.

 EnTyme wrote:
You are really invested in pushing that narrative, aren't you? I'm sorry you have a meta full of jerks, but most of the people here seem fully capable of talking to their opponent before hand.

That talking before hand to agree on a power level is a thing validates his opinion. Points are supposed to do that; one 2000 point army should be able to go against any other 2000 point army with at least some chance of success. It is really not a matter of opinion at this point either; the evidence that an optimized list will crush a non-optimized one is overwhelming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:

auticus wrote:
Its not OP so long as you are going against other optimized powerlists, agreed.

I don't believe my list is optimized and I don't believe my opponent lists were also not fully optimized, but it was a tournament setting so we were all trying to win. I guess if someone is just going for a 100% fluffy list than all our lists would seem OP.

To be clear I am not faulting you. Doubly so for it being a tournament; to me it would be semi-inappropriate to bring anything but an optimized list since that is the agreed on power level.

 EnTyme wrote:
You are really invested in pushing that narrative, aren't you? I'm sorry you have a meta full of jerks, but most of the people here seem fully capable of talking to their opponent before hand.

Has nothing to do with playing jerks. You show up with a list that doesn't push a ton of free points and doesn't pump out a ton of mortal wounds and you play the list that was just shown, you aren't playing for anything other than pushing models around and rolling dice for lolz because the outcome is going to be much like a pro wrestling match - pre determined before the opening bell. Which makes the point system worthless in terms of it being a balancing mechanism.

And I'm not faulting anyone either for running a power list in a tournament, thats what tournaments are for. But to try and say that list isn't a tourney level list or optimized is to be very mistaken, because it would dominate an actual unoptimized list. Which is really any list that is also not pushing the same amount of free points and also not pushing out 30-40+ mortal wounds reliably every turn.

You're talking about getting a free 800 points in four turns. That would be a 2800-2000 point game, unless the game went to 5 turns and then thats likely a 3000 pt vs 2000 pt game.

Anybody here care to play a 3000 pt vs 2000 pt game using a matched play scenario where they get to run the 2000 pts?

I don't know about you, but on a daily I read several times about how the game wasn't good before points because there "was no balance" and that points are supposed to bring balance into the game.

I play with Venerable Ironclad, and I'll agree there's not much summoning going on in our meta. Both me and him have lists that can summon, but at times I don't take advantage of it, partly cause I'm greedy and want another keeper of secrets on the board, so I work up to the 24 points needed, or I'm ahead and I feel that summoning would just be bullying. If the game is tied and it's been pretty even, I don't mind throwing out more daemonettes on the board.

As for mortal wounds, the most I've seen someone throw out was... a stormcast player who had some dracothians and a stardrake, but not much else. Our groups tend to like run up and charge and other cheeky maneuvers.