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 Grimskul wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

White Dwarf 265 (January 2002) wrote: -Plague Marine Havoc squads are the Death Guard's version of conventional Havoc squads. Ever since the Heresy the Death Guard have shown little regard for heavy weaponry and this attitude is reflected in their Havoc squads

...the primacy of the foot soldier remained ever the trademark of the Death Guard. Mortarion preferred to utilise huge waves of infantry, well-equipped and highly-trained on an individual level. He demanded that they be able to function and fight in almost any kind of atmosphere, and gave little emphasis on specialised units using jump packs or bikes. In fact, the Death Guard did not have dedicated Assault and Tactical squads as such; all his Space Marines were expected by Mortarion to be equally adept with bolter, pistol and close combat weapon, to fight with whatever weapon circumstance dictated.

There.

"Little regard", still waiting for 'never use'.

I think that's a very dense reading of it if that's all you get from that. Do you only deal in absolutes like a Sith? He's just given you the reasoning right there as to why they don't have heavy weaponry in most battle-line squads. The few heavy weaponry they do use is on the actual linebreaker/siege units, like Plagueburst crawlers, not on normal plague marines.

That's not all I get from it, they are the ones talking about absolutes All I am saying and have in this thread that it is POSSIBLE for GW to release long range plague marine weapons. I mean do people just wait to contradict me or are you all buddies. If the lore said they absaloutely don't use long range then fair enough. Have little regard can mean they use them but don't like them or have less regard for them as mid to short range.

Okay then, gonna go down swinging are we....?

3.5 CSM codex wrote:

No unit with a Mark of Nurgle may carry any of the following weapons- Lascannon, Autocannon, Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter.

The Primarch of the Death Guard, Mortarion, trained his warriors to fight on foot relying on their Bolters to cut down their enemies. Loyal to his teachings down the centuries Plague Marines have learned to use their Bolters in close combat....

 Grimtuff wrote:
Okay then, gonna go down swinging are we....?

3.5 CSM codex wrote:

No unit with a Mark of Nurgle may carry any of the following weapons- Lascannon, Autocannon, Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter.

The Primarch of the Death Guard, Mortarion, trained his warriors to fight on foot relying on their Bolters to cut down their enemies. Loyal to his teachings down the centuries Plague Marines have learned to use their Bolters in close combat....

And now they use CC weapons tonnes of them and specialised LOL

I'm not swinging, they are a mid to short range army, I'm talking about possibilities and ironically with that quote you just proved me right. I mean do you really think the GW fans would be enraged if GW brought out entropy cannons and we are acting here like GW are strict with the lore when it comes to releasing models, its not like they've never re-written the lore.

Good lord? You really don't get basic metaphors?

I'm out.

We've explained multiple times how GW established the armies identities way back when. I've just gone and checked the 2nd ed CSM codex. PMs could not take heavy weapons even back then. In 1996. This has been an established part of their background since forever.

The legions got properly fleshed out in the IA articles and a lot were given to be something more than a paint scheme, now in the later years many of them are on the way to major Flanderization (would you like that explaining too? Because you seem to want everyone to look up everything for you.) or are already there.
Add in Havoc squads and it goes in the other direction, you end up homogenizing them. Especially in this edition of the game when things can be mixed and matched in soup lists. Why ever take basic CSM Havocs when one can have T5 DR ones?

 Grimtuff wrote:
Good lord? You really don't get basic metaphors?

I'm out.

We've explained multiple times how GW established the armies identities way back when. I've just gone and checked the 2nd ed CSM codex. PMs could not take heavy weapons even back then. In 1996. This has been an established part of their background since forever.

The legions got properly fleshed out in the IA articles and a lot were given to be something more than a paint scheme, now in the later years many of them are on the way to major Flanderization (would you like that explaining too? Because you seem to want everyone to look up everything for you.) or are already there.
Add in Havoc squads and it goes in the other direction, you end up homogenizing them. Especially in this edition of the game when things can be mixed and matched in soup lists. Why ever take basic CSM Havocs when one can have T5 DR ones?

And you have shown that GW change their mind about their wargear, I mean you gave me the source, are you really saying you are arguing with your own sources? The source is valid when you use it, but its not valid when someone else uses it to prove you wrong?

 Grimtuff wrote:
...
Reaper Autocannons- Only on Terminators, like they have been since RT.

Next question.

Reaper auto cannons didn't come around until 2nd edition, not RT.

Changing their mind about wargear=/=adding in options that did not exist 22 years ago.

DG did not have a codex until 8th. So with getting a codex comes expansion of concepts that have been touched on in the past to justify the fact you've just been given a standalone codex.

Nowhere has anyone changed their mind about wargear. The DG's core way of fighting is the same as it ever was, adding in the iconic Nurgle weapons of Flails and Maces that have been part of the Nurgle aesthetic since the Realm of Chaos days to 40k is not changing their minds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Either/Or wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
...
Reaper Autocannons- Only on Terminators, like they have been since RT.

Next question.

Reaper auto cannons didn't come around until 2nd edition, not RT.

Probably misremembering a bit, there was definitely a plastic CSM Autocannon back in the day.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Good lord? You really don't get basic metaphors?

I'm out.

We've explained multiple times how GW established the armies identities way back when. I've just gone and checked the 2nd ed CSM codex. PMs could not take heavy weapons even back then. In 1996. This has been an established part of their background since forever.

The legions got properly fleshed out in the IA articles and a lot were given to be something more than a paint scheme, now in the later years many of them are on the way to major Flanderization (would you like that explaining too? Because you seem to want everyone to look up everything for you.) or are already there.
Add in Havoc squads and it goes in the other direction, you end up homogenizing them. Especially in this edition of the game when things can be mixed and matched in soup lists. Why ever take basic CSM Havocs when one can have T5 DR ones?

And you have shown that GW change their mind about their wargear, I mean you gave me the source, are you really saying you are arguing with your own sources? The source is valid when you use it, but its not valid when someone else uses it to prove you wrong?

That's what he meant about flanderization though, it's flanderizing on things that Death Guard are about, which is plague weaponry for when they get up close and personal in firefights, hence plague spewers being added. The CC stuff is just building on top of that, since more often than not, close firefights also lead to brawls. Suddenly giving them long range weaponry would be the opposite of that, since there's no precedence for them having widespread access to begin with.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Changing their mind about wargear=/=adding in options that did not exist 22 years ago.

DG did not have a codex until 8th. So with getting a codex comes expansion of concepts that have been touched on in the past to justify the fact you've just been given a standalone codex.

Nowhere has anyone changed their mind about wargear. The DG's core way of fighting is the same as it ever was, adding in the iconic Nurgle weapons of Flails and Maces that have been part of the Nurgle aesthetic since the Realm of Chaos days to 40k is not changing their minds.

"Changing their mind about wargear=/=adding in options that did not exist 22 years ago" - And adding entropy cannons would be exactly that.

DG did not have a codex until 8th. So with getting a codex comes expansion of concepts that have been touched on in the past to justify the fact you've just been given a standalone codex." - exactly my point lol

"Nowhere has anyone changed their mind about wargear." - do you honestly not hear how ridiculous you are being?

Just relying on using their bolters for CC to getting a host of new CC weapons 'is' changing their mind. Mace of contagions never existed, neither did the others. What are you talking about.

Nobody can be this ignorant. Can they? Maybe you've taken too many tokes from your plague spewers?

Read what the guy above me wrote. The CCW options are a natural extension of that. Ignoring the facts PMs have had BOLTERS AND PLAGUE KNIVES since their inception. The variant CCWs are simply an expansion of that concept.

Adding in Havoc squads (this is such a bizarre windmill to tilt at BTW) takes away an established concept GW created decades ago. It would be like adding psykers to a WE army or a unit of close combat Rubrics to a TS army. It. Does. Not. Fit.

Army identities exist for a reason.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Nobody can be this ignorant. Can they? Maybe you've taken too many tokes from your plague spewers?

Read what the guy above me wrote. The CCW options are a natural extension of that. Ignoring the facts PMs have had BOLTERS AND PLAGUE KNIVES since their inception. The variant CCWs are simply an expansion of that concept.

Adding in Havoc squads (this is such a bizarre windmill to tilt at BTW) takes away an established concept GW created decades ago. It would be like adding psykers to a WE army or a unit of close combat Rubrics to a TS army. It. Does. Not. Fit.

Army identities exist for a reason.

Its not a natural extension since when was using a bolter to club people in any way shape or form related to an axe for instance? For it to be an extension they have to be related and extention would be to stick knives on the bolters, which they did. Replacing them with completely different weapons is not an extension, a rifle is not a CC weapon an axe is. You are getting really ridiculous now. Again you are arguing against your own source.

"Adding in Havoc squads (this is such a bizarre windmill to tilt at BTW) takes away an established concept GW created decades ago. It would be like adding psykers to a WE army or a unit of close combat Rubrics to a TS army. It. Does. Not. Fit. " only if you can prove they never or would never use long ranged weaponry, which you still haven't done.

And yet another discussion involving Delvarus devolves into pointlessness. It's OK to just say "ah, I see what you mean now" in response to someone when they back up their points with quotes, BTW. I mean, either you don't understand nuance at all or you're so determined to be proven right that you ignore absolutely everything that doesn't 100% match some arbitrary definition you've come up with yourself. There has now been more than one quote showing how the DG don't use long-range heavy weapons and favour a short-range combat style. Their rules for using bolters in combat have changed due to edition changes but we clearly see their preference for that style of warfare in their current special rule for extra Rapid Fire range. The addition of new close combat weapons doesn't change their overall character.

Slipspace wrote:
And yet another discussion involving Delvarus devolves into pointlessness. It's OK to just say "ah, I see what you mean now" in response to someone when they back up their points with quotes, BTW. I mean, either you don't understand nuance at all or you're so determined to be proven right that you ignore absolutely everything that doesn't 100% match some arbitrary definition you've come up with yourself. There has now been more than one quote showing how the DG don't use long-range heavy weapons and favour a short-range combat style. Their rules for using bolters in combat have changed due to edition changes but we clearly see their preference for that style of warfare in their current special rule for extra Rapid Fire range. The addition of new close combat weapons doesn't change their overall character.

You are the ones being stubborn, all I'm talking about is possibilities if GW releasing entropy cannons. You are the ones using arbitrary definitions, because you's have yet to show a source saying they NEVER use them. I've already conceded that they are a short to mid range army, well not conceded agreed. If you show they never use them instead of they 'prefer' to use short to mid then I'll admit I'm wrong. As for the yet again Del stuff, yeah I think I'm the only one being reasonable here and you lot just love to pile on. I don't know how many times I can admit I'm wrong before people stop using that old chestnut.

We have shown a source. The fething codex options themselves.

Perhaps if you paid attention to that book I've apparently never read then you wouldn't to go all Don Quixote over something as you see how the DG fight.

You've been back for, what? Just over 24 hours and you've managed to get one of your threads locked and this one is probably headed the same way.

 Grimtuff wrote:
We have shown a source. The fething codex options themselves.

Perhaps if you paid attention to that book I've apparently never read then you wouldn't to go all Don Quixote over something as you see how the DG fight.

You've been back for, what? Just over 24 hours and you've managed to get one of your threads locked and this one is probably headed the same way.

Yeah a source that contradicted you. So what if the codex showed them not having HW's, They never took bikes in the lore, yet, plus you could have DG HAVOCS in 7th much after that codex...

Yeah because of you, re-read this thread and see who is being the donkey-cave, and you were the one on that other thread that got locked. and I proved you never read that book, that;s why you've got your knickers in a twist and have been following every thread I've been on since I've gotten back.

But...but you don't admit your wrong, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. You stick to these really obtuse one-sided ideas of what is supported by the fluff, hence your stance on "unless they say never, it doesn't count" being your main arguing point, even though there's no basis for it and it brooks no discussion. If your argument is, "they've changed fluff before, so they can" why not use that for every argument, even if it doesn't make sense? Orks can now sprout dongs from their eyes, marines can plant geneseed into recruits through their tongues like genestealers, Bob Dole is the Emperor and my nipples shoot apache helicopters the size of Missouri. It doesn't matter, GW can change it into that!

 Grimskul wrote:
But...but you don't admit your wrong, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. You stick to these really obtuse one-sided ideas of what is supported by the fluff, hence your stance on "unless they say never, it doesn't count" being your main arguing point, even though there's no basis for it and it brooks no discussion. If your argument is, "they've changed fluff before, so they can" why not use that for every argument, even if it doesn't make sense? Orks can now sprout dongs from their eyes, marines can plant geneseed into recruits through their tongues like genestealers, Bob Dole is the Emperor and my nipples shoot apache helicopters the size of Missouri. It doesn't matter, GW can change it into that!

So having DG havocs in 6th etc. is obtuse lol

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
But...but you don't admit your wrong, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. You stick to these really obtuse one-sided ideas of what is supported by the fluff, hence your stance on "unless they say never, it doesn't count" being your main arguing point, even though there's no basis for it and it brooks no discussion. If your argument is, "they've changed fluff before, so they can" why not use that for every argument, even if it doesn't make sense? Orks can now sprout dongs from their eyes, marines can plant geneseed into recruits through their tongues like genestealers, Bob Dole is the Emperor and my nipples shoot apache helicopters the size of Missouri. It doesn't matter, GW can change it into that!

So having DG havocs in 6th etc. is obtuse lol

No you had Havocs with the Mark of Nurgle.

Only in the 3rd and 3.5 CSM codex were PM's and infantry with MoN synonymous. Between 4th to 7th this was not the case.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
But...but you don't admit your wrong, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. You stick to these really obtuse one-sided ideas of what is supported by the fluff, hence your stance on "unless they say never, it doesn't count" being your main arguing point, even though there's no basis for it and it brooks no discussion. If your argument is, "they've changed fluff before, so they can" why not use that for every argument, even if it doesn't make sense? Orks can now sprout dongs from their eyes, marines can plant geneseed into recruits through their tongues like genestealers, Bob Dole is the Emperor and my nipples shoot apache helicopters the size of Missouri. It doesn't matter, GW can change it into that!

So having DG havocs in 6th etc. is obtuse lol

No you had Havocs with the Mark of Nurgle.

Only in the 3rd and 3.5 CSM codex were PM's and infantry with MoN synonymous. Between 4th to 7th this was not the case.

So there was no DG army then, just plague marines that was the whole DG army, Typhus and PM's nothing else. Or the only Nurgle armies that existed were renegades?

The only true "Death Guard" armies you had were ones solely consisting of, as you say, Typhus and Plague Marines.

Any "Death Guard havoks you can think of are just Marines with the Mark of Nurgle. Not Death Guard especially.

You could fluff your army how you wanted, but by GW's terms and definititions, the only true "Death Guard" were Plague Marines and Typhus.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The only true "Death Guard" armies you had were ones solely consisting of, as you say, Typhus and Plague Marines.

Any "Death Guard havoks you can think of are just Marines with the Mark of Nurgle. Not Death Guard especially.

Not really realistic though, so they were an army of just marines and Typhus forgoing all their tanks and defilers ect. and now they have just decided to start using them again. Plus nothing stated any of this, the codex never said DG are only an army of PM's and Typhus and all the rest are just renegades in the codex, we know from the lore that isn't the case either. Plus you can't say Havocs are renegade and just the mark but Land raiders are DG though. Plus it doesn't really matter all I'm suggesting is that there is a possibility GW could do Havoc type DG. I've already agreed that they are mid-short range, they only thing I'm arguing is that its not set in stone.

 Lorek wrote:
You'll also not find a single Plague Marine model that comes with a heavy weapon.

don't get me wrong I'm fine with the death guard lineup as it stands, and it's not like death guard don't have plenty of sources of heavy weapons (a predator is proably better then a havok squad anyway) but that old box does suggest that once upon a time death guard havoks where a thing

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lorek wrote:
You'll also not find a single Plague Marine model that comes with a heavy weapon.

don't get me wrong I'm fine with the death guard lineup as it stands, and it's not like death guard don't have plenty of sources of heavy weapons (a predator is proably better then a havok squad anyway) but that old box does suggest that once upon a time death guard havoks where a thing

They were, but you'll note the lack of heavy weapons there. The box contained some Nurgle-style plasma and melta, but no heavy weapons at all.

Slipspace wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lorek wrote:
You'll also not find a single Plague Marine model that comes with a heavy weapon.

don't get me wrong I'm fine with the death guard lineup as it stands, and it's not like death guard don't have plenty of sources of heavy weapons (a predator is proably better then a havok squad anyway) but that old box does suggest that once upon a time death guard havoks where a thing

They were, but you'll note the lack of heavy weapons there. The box contained some Nurgle-style plasma and melta, but no heavy weapons at all.

Again what about the reaper autocannon, if they were being strict to the original lore they wouldn't have added that into the squad, yes they are termies but, still DG infantry. Plus Havocs then on the box and then on 6th Havocs with LR weaponry, they could have still made them only able to access special weapons, which they've always made stipulations before in the CSM codex's.

GW can always change its mind about anything, even core identities. Necrons got a huge reimagining at the end of 5th, Genestealer Cults was resurrected from the graveyard of old editions, and fantasy Warhammer turned into an entirely different game with an entirely different setting. As a DG player, I don't particularly care for Delvarus Centurion's wishlist, but, strictly speaking, one can't deny that GW could make any or all of those changes. And I imagine long-ranged, heavy-weapon toting Plague Marines will hardly be the straw that breaks the camel's back, seeing as how minor an issue it seems when compared to what happened to the Necrons. Now that is an identity crisis. The vast majority of players aren't going to be up and arms over getting more options.

That being said, I think it's more likely that GW will, for the most part, focus on disease-ridden melee weapons and sub-24" ranged weapons for Plague Marines whenever a new DG update rolls out (this would be my preference, too). With this in mind, it might be more-constructive to think of ways to improve the DG experience with a focus on the sub-24" weapons, rather than havoc-style weapons. Though odds are that GW will never even see the ideas and arguments presented here.

Even with the 5" move, Plague Marines with Havoc-style weapons would have an extreme edge over Devastators / Havocs in being able to move and fire their weapons without the -1 to hit. They won't be zooming around the map, but being able to relocate to get a shot you otherwise couldn't can be huge (especially if you play on crazy-cluttered urban tables where there are all sorts of floors to jump between and windows to run to). Being 5pts cheaper than either a missile launcher or lascannon, Entropy Cannons carried by Plague Marines could be a very ideal loadout. If it's too good, DG might join the ranks of 'Definitely a long-ranged gunline' armies. The past few editions have always had issues with 'fluffy' versus 'competitive,' but I think it might be better for GW to focus on what the DG commonly fields before they start looking at including things that they rarely field. The fluff image of the Death Guard seems to be ponderous, gross vehicles spewing gross stuff at the enemy while Plague Marines trudge across the battlefield to score kills with bolter fire and rusty knives. Really, I'd rather see our bolters get better (maybe...Plague Bolters ) or something be done to make our S4 T5 A1 3+/5++ Marine become a worthwhile pick over Cultists and Poxwalkers before we start looking at 'elite' or 'specialist' versions.

Edit: fixing typos, and adding a tl;dr:

-I agree with Delvarus Centurion's assertion that GW can tweak army 'identities' as much as it likes. I am, however, opposed to Delvarus Centurion's suggestions on DG improvements and would rather see a more-viable 24" range Plague Marine.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lorek wrote:
You'll also not find a single Plague Marine model that comes with a heavy weapon.

don't get me wrong I'm fine with the death guard lineup as it stands, and it's not like death guard don't have plenty of sources of heavy weapons (a predator is proably better then a havok squad anyway) but that old box does suggest that once upon a time death guard havoks where a thing

They were, but you'll note the lack of heavy weapons there. The box contained some Nurgle-style plasma and melta, but no heavy weapons at all.

Again what about the reaper autocannon, if they were being strict to the original lore they wouldn't have added that into the squad, yes they are termies but, still DG infantry. Plus Havocs then on the box and then on 6th Havocs with LR weaponry, they could have still made them only able to access special weapons, which they've always made stipulations before in the CSM codex's.

The only "proper" Death Guard in previous Codices were the Plague Marine troops, everything else was standard CSM with a Mark of Nurgle. So things like Reapers were there because that's what regular models in the CSM Codex had access to, same with Havocs. It's only now that we really see the first full DG Codex. The identity of the army in that Codex matches pretty much exactly with the Index Astartes article. The specialist DG Terminator unit, for example, is a close support/close combat unit. At any rate, the presence of a single medium range heavy weapon in one squad, such as the Reaper, is hardly an indication of a change in direction. I think GW have done a very good job retaining the character of the DG Legion and I don't think they're likely to change it any time soon.

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Lorek wrote:
You'll also not find a single Plague Marine model that comes with a heavy weapon.

don't get me wrong I'm fine with the death guard lineup as it stands, and it's not like death guard don't have plenty of sources of heavy weapons (a predator is proably better then a havok squad anyway) but that old box does suggest that once upon a time death guard havoks where a thing

They were, but you'll note the lack of heavy weapons there. The box contained some Nurgle-style plasma and melta, but no heavy weapons at all.

Again what about the reaper autocannon, if they were being strict to the original lore they wouldn't have added that into the squad, yes they are termies but, still DG infantry. Plus Havocs then on the box and then on 6th Havocs with LR weaponry, they could have still made them only able to access special weapons, which they've always made stipulations before in the CSM codex's.

The only "proper" Death Guard in previous Codices were the Plague Marine troops, everything else was standard CSM with a Mark of Nurgle. So things like Reapers were there because that's what regular models in the CSM Codex had access to, same with Havocs. It's only now that we really see the first full DG Codex. The identity of the army in that Codex matches pretty much exactly with the Index Astartes article. The specialist DG Terminator unit, for example, is a close support/close combat unit. At any rate, the presence of a single medium range heavy weapon in one squad, such as the Reaper, is hardly an indication of a change in direction. I think GW have done a very good job retaining the character of the DG Legion and I don't think they're likely to change it any time soon.

He's refering to blight lord terminators which can have reaper autocannons. that said sometimes a single exception to an army can retain it's fluffyness and still be fun.

Grimtuff is right that "historically" GW defined DG as heaving heavy weapons only on their dreadnoughts and tanks. They were forbidden to have any on their infantry in 3rd edition as has been quoted.
However, Delvarus is also right that GW likes to change fluff. And indeed with the Traitor Legions book we saw Havocs, Raptors and Bikers that weren't just CSM with mark of Nurgle, but they were practically Plague marines as they had feel no pain and the only things they lacked were blight grenades and plague knives. With 8th GW obviousely did another turn around and changed DG once again, partly going back to 3rd edition but also adding a lot of new stuff. The idea that DG use hardly any vehicles aside from vindicators and fellblades vanished with the introduction of crawlers and haulers.

Another thing to add would be DG in 30K, who are actually using lots of heavy weapons and get boni for using heavy weapons platforms. (Which FW forbid for their 40k incarnation...)

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Grimtuff is right that "historically" GW defined DG as heaving heavy weapons only on their dreadnoughts and tanks. They were forbidden to have any on their infantry in 3rd edition as has been quoted.
However, Delvarus is also right that GW likes to change fluff. And indeed with the Traitor Legions book we saw Havocs, Raptors and Bikers that weren't just CSM with mark of Nurgle, but they were practically Plague marines as they had feel no pain and the only things they lacked were blight grenades and plague knives. With 8th GW obviousely did another turn around and changed DG once again, partly going back to 3rd edition but also adding a lot of new stuff. The idea that DG use hardly any vehicles aside from vindicators and fellblades vanished with the introduction of crawlers and haulers.

Another thing to add would be DG in 30K, who are actually using lots of heavy weapons and get boni for using heavy weapons platforms. (Which FW forbid for their 40k incarnation...)

in fairness the 7th edition time span was a 6 month period where they basicly just slapped chapter tactics on codex chaos space marines and called it a day

This is a very special thread, by a very special person. I liked reading it.