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In the case of “is that unit falling back”, I can tell because they’re facing the other way. and often in a disordered formation. Simple, no token needed, looks better on the battlefield.

I know there’s people who use casualty miniatures in place of tokens to mark attrition on units in games with no figure removal, that works too.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

Why use templates and not measuring tape? I'd only be guessing, but I think measuring has a very negative connotation to board game people. It is an instant turn off, and I personally know people who won't even play games that use measuring for movement. It's probably one of the top 5 reasons why board gamers don't play miniature games (cost, assembling miniatures, painting anxiety, competitive gamers - and tape measures).

Using templates instead of a measuring tape means you also don't have to worry about providing measurement numbers based on whether a country uses the metric system or not. Very useful when having to do localized translations for the game.

Anyway, I think it's worth noting that even some games that don't officially use tokens, actually still use them, even if they're just in your mind. Was that unit in 40K falling back? How many wounds has that unit taken and what bonuses do they have for combat resolution? Are they under the effects of some psychic buff? And so on.

Wait, whut? Tokens are, you know, tokens. Physical objects. Some people choose to use tokens to keep track of things in games that do not actually require tokens to play, but that's a choice they made not something that the game requires them to do. What you described are what's known in the trade as "game mechanics"

Which is what I said, so exactly what are you arguing against me about? Maybe I didn't use the words you would have wanted me to use, but my point was the same as what you just said...

nareik wrote:
Mordheim had wyrdstone shard tokens! Of course any sensible player replaces these with green jelly babies / jelly beans.

I actually still use a few of the tokens that came with my 40k 2nd ed / Necromunda 1st ed while playing GW games.

Thats just crazy talk, no chance any jelly bean at my table would last very long..how would you know who had more warpstone when we all go "skaven" and devour them

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

Why use templates and not measuring tape? I'd only be guessing, but I think measuring has a very negative connotation to board game people. It is an instant turn off, and I personally know people who won't even play games that use measuring for movement. It's probably one of the top 5 reasons why board gamers don't play miniature games (cost, assembling miniatures, painting anxiety, competitive gamers - and tape measures).

Using templates instead of a measuring tape means you also don't have to worry about providing measurement numbers based on whether a country uses the metric system or not. Very useful when having to do localized translations for the game.

Anyway, I think it's worth noting that even some games that don't officially use tokens, actually still use them, even if they're just in your mind. Was that unit in 40K falling back? How many wounds has that unit taken and what bonuses do they have for combat resolution? Are they under the effects of some psychic buff? And so on.

Wait, whut? Tokens are, you know, tokens. Physical objects. Some people choose to use tokens to keep track of things in games that do not actually require tokens to play, but that's a choice they made not something that the game requires them to do. What you described are what's known in the trade as "game mechanics"

Which is what I said, so exactly what are you arguing against me about? Maybe I didn't use the words you would have wanted me to use, but my point was the same as what you just said...

Yes, but my point is that your point is utterly irrelevant to the topic, which is about games that require you to use vast heaps of proprietary doodads and chits and wotsits to play. I've played 40K with the same "tools" since the 90's - an army list, a pencil, (until this edition) the flame & blast templates, and a tape measure. Now, if someone wants to go out and spend a chunk of change on custom laser-cut acrylic tokens to track every last status effect in the game and wound counters for their units and blah blah then good for them, that's their choice, but there's nothing in the actual rules that requires them to do so, none of the game mechanics are tied to specific (proprietary)tokens, and from what I've seen even people who do choose to use tokens for GW games in practice only use one or two not more than a dozen as with some of the games being discussed here.

My pet theory is that tokens are a by product of the merging of miniature wargames and board games into a new genre I have seen called "War Dudes on a Board".

You get the unit tokens in miniature form and the tracking from tokens, plus these games often play on a board thereby merging the aspects of board and war games into one thing.

As the two merge more and more, you see the worst excess of both genres coming out too clutter up the new genre with the worst of both worlds. Of course, there are a humble few that manage to build on the advantages of both formats but that is the exception.

I have a low tolerance for clutter and actively avoid FFG games for that very reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:
My pet theory is that tokens are a by product of the merging of miniature wargames and board games into a new genre I have seen called "War Dudes on a Board".

You get the unit tokens in miniature form and the tracking from tokens, plus these games often play on a board thereby merging the aspects of board and war games into one thing.

As the two merge more and more, you see the worst excess of both genres coming out too clutter up the new genre with the worst of both worlds. Of course, there are a humble few that manage to build on the advantages of both formats but that is the exception.

I can definitely agree with that thought train. The merging of board games into tabletop games is... well... not my favorite thing.

Me too. However, the game's owner and I played at my rental, during a summer session at our university (so we only had one class each), and we still had to set it up and tear it down after each game session (about 4 hours every Friday for at least 6 weeks). It was not a complete tear-down, but we had to shift the papers where you organize the actual ship counters into fleets into an empty dresser drawer and the map into the other drawer. Incidentally, it was only the first scenario we played, the limited war with the Lyrans and Klingons prior to the Feds getting involved and the First General War breaking out. While I enjoyed it then, I'm not sure I'd be mentally up for it now.

leopard wrote:
on the subject of tokens..

Did anyone else ever play Federation and Empire?

and I mean actually play it, not give up after setting half of the 1,500+ counters up....

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
Me too. However, the game's owner and I played at my rental, during a summer session at our university (so we only had one class each), and we still had to set it up and tear it down after each game session (about 4 hours every Friday for at least 6 weeks). It was not a complete tear-down, but we had to shift the papers where you organize the actual ship counters into fleets into an empty dresser drawer and the map into the other drawer. Incidentally, it was only the first scenario we played, the limited war with the Lyrans and Klingons prior to the Feds getting involved and the First General War breaking out. While I enjoyed it then, I'm not sure I'd be mentally up for it now.

leopard wrote:
on the subject of tokens..

Did anyone else ever play Federation and Empire?

and I mean actually play it, not give up after setting half of the 1,500+ counters up....

its a wonderful game, that early war scenario is good, they did one set a few years earlier "four powers war" with Klingon, Kzinti, Lyran and Hydrans that played a bit faster (not fighters or PFs mostly)

it always made me thing, why the hell isn't this on a computer?, even just to track everything and manage the ecomonic stuff


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
Me too. However, the game's owner and I played at my rental, during a summer session at our university (so we only had one class each), and we still had to set it up and tear it down after each game session (about 4 hours every Friday for at least 6 weeks). It was not a complete tear-down, but we had to shift the papers where you organize the actual ship counters into fleets into an empty dresser drawer and the map into the other drawer. Incidentally, it was only the first scenario we played, the limited war with the Lyrans and Klingons prior to the Feds getting involved and the First General War breaking out. While I enjoyed it then, I'm not sure I'd be mentally up for it now.

leopard wrote:
on the subject of tokens..

Did anyone else ever play Federation and Empire?

and I mean actually play it, not give up after setting half of the 1,500+ counters up....

Incidentally, whoever came up with the fleet organisation sheets so it went from a list, then find the counter to pick up a counter and find a box to put it in deserves a medal

 Easy E wrote:
My pet theory is that tokens are a by product of the merging of miniature wargames and board games into a new genre I have seen called "War Dudes on a Board".

You get the unit tokens in miniature form and the tracking from tokens, plus these games often play on a board thereby merging the aspects of board and war games into one thing.

As the two merge more and more, you see the worst excess of both genres coming out too clutter up the new genre with the worst of both worlds. Of course, there are a humble few that manage to build on the advantages of both formats but that is the exception.

It's a little late in the game, so to speak, but by my last count my Titanomachina game has 93 tokens per sheet. Of those 93 there's 1 Deadline Token (easily replaced with a bead or random junk laying around), 12 Weapon System tokens, 8 Crew tokens, two sets of 15 Titan-specific System tokens (arms, legs, shields, etc), 12 Shield tokens, and 30 Damage tokens (double-sided 'light' and 'heavy'). Each player gets 15 Titan-specific System tokens, 3 Weapon System tokens, 4 Crew tokens, and 4 Shield tokens. The System and Crew tokens plug into a Titan Dashboard, with the Shield and Damage tokens placed over top. The Shield and Damage tokens can also go on the board, to represent damage to buildings, and shields extended to protect those buildings.

The notion was that players would be able to build their Titans from a library of systems and crew members, but it looks like I'll need to sell the extra systems (cards & tokens), and modular Titan kits, separately. Game-wise I'm hoping it's just enough to give players a sense of friction without onerous upkeep.

I don't mind tokens, personally, but I do try to keep them attractive or simple. I prefer when tokens can be hidden or placed aside for pictures though, so I'm not a fan of elaborate bases with game-mechanics on them (i.e. X-Wing stands etc.). Also I find tokens depend heavily on the game being played.

We currently play 40K using an alternate activation system (conveniently enough called 'Tokenhammer') which means units are not activating per side, etc. So status effects of spells, stratagems etc. are often marked with tokens or notes so that we don't forget during the more varied turn.

The same goes for my Old West game - the turn is chaotic and varied so certain statuses need to be remembered by both players. Tokens are placed either on the character cards or alongside the actual miniatures - depending on player preference.

A poor picture showing a late turn in the Old West game: