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Made in us
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I'd say sergeants of squads should keep the same stats, with their extra A and LD (Heck, you could remove the A.) The main reason for this is simplicity. Veteran Squads should be better than their counterparts in stats that actually matter, we already see this in play with Guard Vets. Why not other factions?


Tau suit pilots and the fire warrior sergeants are the same rank, they are shas'ui and they're interchangeable.

Then there is a better grade of suit pilot, called the shas'vre, and if anyone they should get bs3+ ws4+, just like the marines all have a better grade of elite unit who usually have some 2+ skill. There's a good grade of elite who should get the higher skills they often have, and then there are basic elites who should are definitionally basically qualifying elites.

Statswise it's almost universally that way in fantasy in 40k. A basic unit has a champion, 40k marines and guard call them sergeants, and then an elite unit is a unit of champions.

Veteran Squads should be better than their counterparts in stats that actually matter,
BS is the only skill for shooting, and the elite stats A and Ld are useless in shooting because the whole profile comes straight from warhammer fantasy and warhammer historicals. So the problem is that A, the stat that elite units get, doesn't have a shooting use, as a result of it's origin as Bow Skill.

Obviously, Attacks are a stat that matters way more than WS in close combat, so shooting is the main concern.


Veteran Squads should be better than their counterparts


Fluffwise, I don't think that there's a good argument they should have better skill. Gamewise, they're miles better in assault because they have better attacks and Ld, and so they should just get better shooting from their attacks and Ld stats.


The other solution is to add more special rules.


That's one bad solution. Another solution is since there are lots of guns in the setting, characters should have more than one stat that affects guns. Stats like, for example, Attacks and Leadership. So make attacks and leadership power up your shooting, and then you don't have to worry about maxing out the WS/BS chart for guys who are definitely near the middle of the skill levels compared to elites+, DE succubi, Eversor assassins, greater daemons, etcetera.



Yes, but if you want to talk about realistic changes you must take those into account.

But in order for marines to NOT be overshadowed by their better brethren, the Primaris they must do something they can't.
Perhaps GW's goal here is for them to be overshadowed, in which case all this theorycrafting is pointless
I mean I don't really care about GWs goals and for me realistic changes involve being able to ignore some of GWs stuff because their process is always going to yield things that are less than ideal for gameplay.
   
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I mean I fully support BS3+ Crisis Suits. I don't know how I feel about them getting WS4+, but it isn't like they'll hurt much so I don't care.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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USA

pelicaniforce wrote:
I'd say sergeants of squads should keep the same stats, with their extra A and LD (Heck, you could remove the A.) The main reason for this is simplicity. Veteran Squads should be better than their counterparts in stats that actually matter, we already see this in play with Guard Vets. Why not other factions?


Tau suit pilots and the fire warrior sergeants are the same rank, they are shas'ui and they're interchangeable.

Then there is a better grade of suit pilot, called the shas'vre, and if anyone they should get bs3+ ws4+, just like the marines all have a better grade of elite unit who usually have some 2+ skill. There's a good grade of elite who should get the higher skills they often have, and then there are basic elites who should are definitionally basically qualifying elites.

Statswise it's almost universally that way in fantasy in 40k. A basic unit has a champion, 40k marines and guard call them sergeants, and then an elite unit is a unit of champions.

Veteran Squads should be better than their counterparts in stats that actually matter,
BS is the only skill for shooting, and the elite stats A and Ld are useless in shooting because the whole profile comes straight from warhammer fantasy and warhammer historicals. So the problem is that A, the stat that elite units get, doesn't have a shooting use, as a result of it's origin as Bow Skill.

Obviously, Attacks are a stat that matters way more than WS in close combat, so shooting is the main concern.


Veteran Squads should be better than their counterparts


Fluffwise, I don't think that there's a good argument they should have better skill. Gamewise, they're miles better in assault because they have better attacks and Ld, and so they should just get better shooting from their attacks and Ld stats.


The other solution is to add more special rules.


That's one bad solution. Another solution is since there are lots of guns in the setting, characters should have more than one stat that affects guns. Stats like, for example, Attacks and Leadership. So make attacks and leadership power up your shooting, and then you don't have to worry about maxing out the WS/BS chart for guys who are definitely near the middle of the skill levels compared to elites+, DE succubi, Eversor assassins, greater daemons, etcetera.



Yes, but if you want to talk about realistic changes you must take those into account.

But in order for marines to NOT be overshadowed by their better brethren, the Primaris they must do something they can't.
Perhaps GW's goal here is for them to be overshadowed, in which case all this theorycrafting is pointless

I mean I don't really care about GWs goals and for me realistic changes involve being able to ignore some of GWs stuff because their process is always going to yield things that are less than ideal for gameplay.

1: They are the same rank. But this is about gameplay, not fluff. For simplicity, keep all the members in a Fire Warrior squad to be 4+ BS, and all the Crisis suit members will be 3+ BS. Those are the elites. Veteran Space Marines are the elites. They get a better BS. That's how it should work imo.

2: Yes, so bring up their BS, WS, A and LD. Melee is much harder to get into, and their points should be balanced as needed.

3: Well since attacks and LD don't affect shooting, and won't, you buff their shooting. Then, you get the question, why are they better at shooting but not in melee? So WS gets boosted.

4: Agreed. That's why I think the BS/WS system should be overhauled to allow for more granularity. I'd like a chart that compared BS to a stat, and WS to a stat, giving you more options.

5: Yep. I think adding in Primaris was a mistake because it basically kills any room for changing around marines without some stupid special rules.

And yes, GW won't remove Primaris marines. They are here to stay.
GW Also won't fix Marines in a reasonable way. The most they'll actually do is a point decrease for power armour hordes. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
We aren't removing Primaris. They exist. Get over it.


This is the proposed rules thread. The existence of Primaris marines means that any buff normal marines to their stats get is stepping on their toes.

More attacks? Primaris. More AP? Primaris. More wounds? Primaris.

What do you have left? Not much without special rules that just keep adding on and on to fix units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/29 16:39:20


"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
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Any buff to a standard tactical marines should also be passed onto primaris marines.

If tacs get +1 wound - so should primaris. If Tacs bet -1 ap on bolters - BR should go to ap-2. If points get dropped to 10 for a tac. A primaris should go down to 15.

Though - ITT - it was just suggested that power armor get a -1 to incoming AP. This would scale well across the codex and buff both tacs and primaris simultaneously.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I mean I fully support BS3+ Crisis Suits. I don't know how I feel about them getting WS4+, but it isn't like they'll hurt much so I don't care.


Bodyguards used to have WS 3, but got nerfed for some reason. It explains why commanders had WS 4. So while commanders got ported over with WS 3+, bodyguards ended up with WS 5+.
   
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+1 Attack all around (Minus Characters), This would bring up units like Tactical Squads in versatility, and give Assault Squads a little extra punch.

+1 AP for bolt guns. Bolt guns suck. There's no way around it. This would help them against all types of infantry, against which they extremely underperform.

I really really support +1 attack all around, with the proviso that it has to affect shooting too. There is so much wasted opportunity in raising attacks but not adding a shooting effect to having high attacks. +1 attacks on a basic tactical squad just means you have a unit that's nearly mediocre in close combat and even less good at shooting. +1 attack in combat and a shooting boost from attacks makes way more sense.

as for boltguns sucking, that's yet another reason to give marines +1a and a bonus connected to their shooting attacks. What should it be? You've already said you want -1AP. If they're shooting at a unit that has only one attack, give them a -1ap, why not? Even better, veterans who would then have 3 attacks could get -1AP against marines, ork boyz, and tau suits, anything. You don't even have to give up bolters having their own -1ap, they could have -1 ap and stack it with the attacks bonus, and use that to wipe out 5+ saves like they used to.


Veteran Space Marines are the elites.


What about sanguinary guard, ultramarine honor guard, Tau bodyguard teams and Black Legion Bringers of Despair? they are the elitest above those elites, what about their design space? You've talked about intruding on design space, what do they get when the people they are drawn from already have bs/ws2+?

Well since attacks and LD don't affect shooting, and won't

why not? this is proposed rules. Having three stats exclusively for close combat vs one for shooting is silly when everyone has space ships and guns.

4: Agreed. That's why I think the BS/WS system should be overhauled to allow for more granularity.


You can get granularity by pasting shooting effects onto the basically useless +1A +1Ld that veterans and sergeants have. Shooting veterans like sternguard and shooty chosen have two attacks. Shas'ui fire warrior leaders and shas'ui crisis teams have two attacks that are completely useless because they are specifically supposed to be bad at shooting. So we can just give attacks a shooting function, and then you have to have both good bs and good attacks to be truly good at shooting, creating way more granularity and also having a unified "good soldier" stat. If you're a veteran, even if you aren't specialized in either cc or shooting, you should automatically get more wily and better generally at both of them than a regular trooper is.

The existence of Primaris marines means that any buff normal marines to their stats get is stepping on their toes.

More attacks? Primaris. More AP? Primaris. More wounds? Primaris.


No, change what Primaris are - there's no reason they shouldn't have something else instead of bonus wounds. I think Primaris should go down to the same wounds as regular marines and get +1 M, +1 S instead. They are complete monsters, I think like they should act like it and go really fast and punch hard, even though they are supposedly civilized shooting units. That also makes them more interesting and keeps them from being just betterized marines.



GW Also won't fix Marines in a reasonable way. The most they'll actually do is a point decrease for power armour hordes. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss this?


We should discuss it a lot and play with rules that are better than what GW can make, and definitely never even think about whether GW's goal is for them to be overshadowed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/29 18:30:03


 
   
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pelicaniforce wrote:
Veteran Space Marines are the elites.


What about sanguinary guard, ultramarine honor guard, Tau bodyguard teams and Black Legion Bringers of Despair? they are the elitest above those elites, what about their design space? You've talked about intruding on design space, what do they get when the people they are drawn from already have bs/ws2+?

Well since attacks and LD don't affect shooting, and won't

why not? this is proposed rules. Having three stats exclusively for close combat vs one for shooting is silly when everyone has space ships and guns.

4: Agreed. That's why I think the BS/WS system should be overhauled to allow for more granularity.


You can get granularity by pasting shooting effects onto the basically useless +1A +1Ld that veterans and sergeants have. Shooting veterans like sternguard and shooty chosen have two attacks. Shas'ui fire warrior leaders and shas'ui crisis teams have two attacks that are completely useless because they are specifically supposed to be bad at shooting. So we can just give attacks a shooting function, and then you have to have both good bs and good attacks to be truly good at shooting, creating way more granularity and also having a unified "good soldier" stat. If you're a veteran, even if you aren't specialized in either cc or shooting, you should automatically get more wily and better generally at both of them than a regular trooper is.

The existence of Primaris marines means that any buff normal marines to their stats get is stepping on their toes.

More attacks? Primaris. More AP? Primaris. More wounds? Primaris.


No, change what Primaris are - there's no reason they shouldn't have something else instead of bonus wounds. I think Primaris should go down to the same wounds as regular marines and get +1 M, +1 S instead. They are complete monsters, I think like they should act like it and go really fast and punch hard, even though they are supposedly civilized shooting units. That also makes them more interesting and keeps them from being just betterized marines.



GW Also won't fix Marines in a reasonable way. The most they'll actually do is a point decrease for power armour hordes. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss this?


We should discuss it a lot and play with rules that are better than what GW can make, and definitely never even think about whether GW's goal is for them to be overshadowed.


1: That's an issue with GW not putting enough room for granularity in the game.

2: Melee is already extremely hard to get into, assault is extremely weak.
Does shooting need more buffs??

3: That is true, but how would you do it? There are a lot of interesting mechanics to be explored with these stats I think.

4: No opinion here.

5: Agreed. It's why were here after all.

I think having attacks effecting shooting could be interesting. How would you balance that though? Obviously melee would need to be changed, more reliable to get into.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
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When hit with weapons up to AP 1 (so AP:- and AP:1) they may re-roll unsuccessful saves.

In case of deathguard, yes this would work for them but they'd need a point increase across the board for it.

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endlesswaltz123 wrote:
When hit with weapons up to AP 1 (so AP:- and AP:1) they may re-roll unsuccessful saves.

In case of deathguard, yes this would work for them but they'd need a point increase across the board for it.

And that's just far too much work. The issue with Plague Marines is something that plagues (heh) CSM armies as a whole, and has relation to the issues Marines do have. Personally I think fixing Bolt weapons and giving them an extra attack (these guys should be Vets after all) would go a long way to making them more appealing.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

Guys.
Crazy Talk Here.

What if bolter weapons instead of getting more AP, increased in RoF?

Maybe make them either Rapid Fire 2 or Assault 3?
And 2 damage on 6s to wound.

Thoughts?

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MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
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 iGuy91 wrote:
Guys.
Crazy Talk Here.

What if bolter weapons instead of getting more AP, increased in RoF?

Maybe make them either Rapid Fire 2 or Assault 3?
And 2 damage on 6s to wound.

Thoughts?


Never been a big fan of things on 6s, they aren't that useful. More shots would work, but Rapid Fire 2 might be too much. A single tactical squad putting out 40 shots. Assault 3 could work, maybe just a special rule that lets them fire 1 extra shot.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 iGuy91 wrote:
Guys.
Crazy Talk Here.

What if bolter weapons instead of getting more AP, increased in RoF?

Maybe make them either Rapid Fire 2 or Assault 3?
And 2 damage on 6s to wound.

Thoughts?


Some time ago I suggested +1 shot within half range (so 3 shots total) specifically for tactical marines to represent their training with the boltgun, but someone thought it made them too close to FW for some reason.
Anyway, the idea being that Marines should want to get close to use all their cool stats (shooting and melee) and this gives them extra reward for at least being close. I also don't want to encourage sitting still.

The other consideration is the plethora of other units with boltguns: both guard and sisters can use and do use boltguns all the time, so any buffs to the bolter also buffs them. And quite frankly, the boltgun only sucks on marines. A 4 pt guardsmen with a 1 pt boltgun is actually really good. So I'd say give the marines the ability and not the gun.
One more option would be to give marines a unique boltgun that does whatever you think should apply.
   
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Chicago, Illinois

So to add to this post....

Points cost and AP raising would help space marines quite a bit, not shifting their list around to be more confusing. I would remove units that don't serve a purpose in the codex (Centurions & vindicators for example).

But the crux of my argument is the following...

Essentially if space marines received a -1 ap to all BOLT weapons they would be far better and would deal with far more.
while also reducing the cost of melta weapons, grav, and heavy weapons up to a half cost (or 20%).
If a space marine is paying a premium cost of 17 points (almost the entire amount for a new model) then that should be changed... Veteran units should be encouraged to take special weapons and heavy weapons and take a cost reduction on all heavy weaponry.

Reducing terminator costs for equipment by 2/3s would help tremendously (Right now a chainfist is as expensive as a scout, previously a chainfist was only 1 pts more than a regular powerfist)

Allowing for 'legio' esque rules for each chapter to allow for interesting combinations, and giving all 'walker' units or dreadnoughts and vehicles access to special rules. And allowing space marines to have the "We fight alone" special rule that gives them the "bolter drill" Special rule if they are a mono army.

ON the topic of vehicles the entirety of 8th edition is anti-vehicle, there is no reason to take any space marine vehicle due to the sheer cost of having one, in previous editions space marine vehicles (predator and razorback for example) never broke the 130pts mark. Even in 7th and 6th.

Terminators need the following buffs: Ap -1 on their storm bolters / combi-bolters, and 6" movement. (assault cannons REND or gain an extra shot for each six rolled on WOUNDing rolls) and a points cost reduction to equipment (by 20 - 60%, storm bolters are FREE for terminators and Termies to have a special rule "SLOW But Relentless" which prevents them from being advanced upon and can fire heavy weapons at no penalty (Like they used to have)). I also believe that Terminators require some much-needed love in just crunching and/or being able to take more of them instead of being punished for taking them (more of them you take the less expensive they become!).

Space Marine Primaris are already good no changes needed for them. Scouts need to be reduced down from their current bs to BS +4 (as they are neophytes after all). While also reducing their effectiveness over taking a Tactical Squad who are meant to be the main part of a Space Marine Strike Force.


I still think taking space marines all by themselves should confer you a BONUS along with bolt weapons just being better bang for their buck. Or just wounding anything with a 5+ armor save far easier.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
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Scouts were only WS/BS4+ for one or two codices. So no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also seeing as you said Primaris are good as is you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/30 02:51:28


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Scouts were only WS/BS4+ for one or two codices. So no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also seeing as you said Primaris are good as is you haven't a clue what you're talking about.


Rule #1 please and thank you

They are good. Aggressors are great, Inceptors are wonderful, Hellblasters are the best Heavy Weapons unit for space marines. Intercessors in comparison to most of their other troop choices (other than scouts) are great. There is no reason to take a tactical squad over an intercessor squad or a scout squad. Scout squads trump all other choices though just based on cheapness and access to sniper rifles.

If all bolt weapons get -1 ap then bolt Rifles are ap -2.

All of a sudden that intercessor squad becomes what they should be, an elite unit. If you bump down equipment costs for tactical squads and give them access to better chapter tactics, tactical vs intercessors would be a real consideration.

If you take one point out of my post and that is Primaris are fine its because I already said "GIVE ALL BOLT WEAPONS -1 AP". They not only go from "Eh" To "What the hell." Really quickly.

Points wise space marines are fine, its their equipment that is over costed and medicore rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/30 02:58:26


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
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Primaris are not good. Not at their current pricing.
   
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Chicago, Illinois

Martel732 wrote:
Primaris are not good. Not at their current pricing.


With their equipment costs. I agree.

But not their intercessors which are far more reasonably costed in comparison to a terminator squad.

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 Asherian Command wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Scouts were only WS/BS4+ for one or two codices. So no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also seeing as you said Primaris are good as is you haven't a clue what you're talking about.


Rule #1 please and thank you

They are good. Aggressors are great, Inceptors are wonderful, Hellblasters are the best Heavy Weapons unit for space marines. Intercessors in comparison to most of their other troop choices (other than scouts) are great. There is no reason to take a tactical squad over an intercessor squad or a scout squad. Scout squads trump all other choices though just based on cheapness and access to sniper rifles.

If all bolt weapons get -1 ap then bolt Rifles are ap -2.

All of a sudden that intercessor squad becomes what they should be, an elite unit. If you bump down equipment costs for tactical squads and give them access to better chapter tactics, tactical vs intercessors would be a real consideration.

If you take one point out of my post and that is Primaris are fine its because I already said "GIVE ALL BOLT WEAPONS -1 AP". They not only go from "Eh" To "What the hell." Really quickly.

Points wise space marines are fine, its their equipment that is over costed and medicore rules.

I never violated Rule 1. Also just based on the fact you said Scouts are great with Sniper Rifles, you really don't know what you're talking about. Even Insectum7 would show more awareness than your post and he is a diehard Marine defender.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Scouts were only WS/BS4+ for one or two codices. So no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also seeing as you said Primaris are good as is you haven't a clue what you're talking about.


Rule #1 please and thank you

They are good. Aggressors are great, Inceptors are wonderful, Hellblasters are the best Heavy Weapons unit for space marines. Intercessors in comparison to most of their other troop choices (other than scouts) are great. There is no reason to take a tactical squad over an intercessor squad or a scout squad. Scout squads trump all other choices though just based on cheapness and access to sniper rifles.

If all bolt weapons get -1 ap then bolt Rifles are ap -2.

All of a sudden that intercessor squad becomes what they should be, an elite unit. If you bump down equipment costs for tactical squads and give them access to better chapter tactics, tactical vs intercessors would be a real consideration.

If you take one point out of my post and that is Primaris are fine its because I already said "GIVE ALL BOLT WEAPONS -1 AP". They not only go from "Eh" To "What the hell." Really quickly.

Points wise space marines are fine, its their equipment that is over costed and medicore rules.

I never violated Rule 1. Also just based on the fact you said Scouts are great with Sniper Rifles, you really don't know what you're talking about. Even Insectum7 would show more awareness than your post and he is a diehard Marine defender.


Have you ever faced a deathguard player using the zombie list? No? Scouts with sniper rifles can shoot that blob.

Now they aren't Eldar Rangers, but overall they are far better than taking a tactical or intercessor squad.

If you take scouts you take them with camo cloaks and raven guard tactics. Which not only make them a beefy target to deal with but are hard as nails to kill. Sniper rifles also have great area denial for 'characters' and break more hero armies. But as they are part of the space marines I would not take them entirely by themselves. The point is, scouts are cheap, really cheap, you don't want a ton of them but they are an excellent smokescreen for your army.

Yeah you can take shotguns with them but they need to be very close, you can also take bolters which is one of the major reasons to take them. But the problem becomes why would you ever take a scout squad out of cover if they have camo cloaks? One of the major reasons to field them?

You either take an entire army built around cheesing your opponent with cheap units, but you would not use space marines to do this if there are better armies to use other than Ultras and Bobby G.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/30 05:46:33


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
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Camo Cloaks are possibly one of the worst upgrades in the game right now. You make them more expensive than a Tactical Marine for only the same durability by individual model in cover!

With Scouts you take Shotguns or the CCW. Sniper Rifles are like 2 points too expensive, and Camo Cloaks are just silly. For the price you have better sources of Bolters. Ya know if you want them for whatever reason.

Also what exactly are the Scouts with Sniper Rifles going to do to a Zombie list? They sure as hell aren't gonna kill a buff character, and 5 shots won't kill a horde.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Asherian Command wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Scouts were only WS/BS4+ for one or two codices. So no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also seeing as you said Primaris are good as is you haven't a clue what you're talking about.


Rule #1 please and thank you

They are good. Aggressors are great, Inceptors are wonderful, Hellblasters are the best Heavy Weapons unit for space marines. Intercessors in comparison to most of their other troop choices (other than scouts) are great. There is no reason to take a tactical squad over an intercessor squad or a scout squad. Scout squads trump all other choices though just based on cheapness and access to sniper rifles.

If all bolt weapons get -1 ap then bolt Rifles are ap -2.

All of a sudden that intercessor squad becomes what they should be, an elite unit. If you bump down equipment costs for tactical squads and give them access to better chapter tactics, tactical vs intercessors would be a real consideration.

If you take one point out of my post and that is Primaris are fine its because I already said "GIVE ALL BOLT WEAPONS -1 AP". They not only go from "Eh" To "What the hell." Really quickly.

Points wise space marines are fine, its their equipment that is over costed and medicore rules.

I never violated Rule 1. Also just based on the fact you said Scouts are great with Sniper Rifles, you really don't know what you're talking about. Even Insectum7 would show more awareness than your post and he is a diehard Marine defender.


Have you ever faced a deathguard player using the zombie list? No? Scouts with sniper rifles can shoot that blob.

Now they aren't Eldar Rangers, but overall they are far better than taking a tactical or intercessor squad.

If you take scouts you take them with camo cloaks and raven guard tactics. Which not only make them a beefy target to deal with but are hard as nails to kill. Sniper rifles also have great area denial for 'characters' and break more hero armies. But as they are part of the space marines I would not take them entirely by themselves. The point is, scouts are cheap, really cheap, you don't want a ton of them but they are an excellent smokescreen for your army.

Yeah you can take shotguns with them but they need to be very close, you can also take bolters which is one of the major reasons to take them. But the problem becomes why would you ever take a scout squad out of cover if they have camo cloaks? One of the major reasons to field them?

You either take an entire army built around cheesing your opponent with cheap units, but you would not use space marines to do this if there are better armies to use other than Ultras and Bobby G.

Scouts with sniper rifles are cheap?
Have you even looked at Astra Millicheese codex that is cheap units. Nothing about marines is cheap. Heck most of the codex isn't worth it's point's.
Bolt rifles being -2AP is OP for a basic troop weapon. Even Pulserifles IIRC wear AP4 are AP0 now FFS an Autocannon and geavy bolter are AP -1.
   
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Deathwatch are looking at AP -2 Bolt Rifles and AP -1 Auto Bolt Rifles and laughing hysterically.
   
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18 ppm is nuts for a single sniper shot.

And intercessors are out for me because the dissy cannon is so cannon. GW basically told all primaris to feth off when they printed drukhari.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/30 13:09:32


 
   
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I don't see neccesary increasing the AP from the Intercessors rifles. Yes, the "normal" Boltgun should be AP -1, it is a 24" weapon. The Bolt Rifle can stay AP -1 as they are 30".

I see as good idea increasing the AP of the bolters if they are at half range, they are shooting mini grenades.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/30 14:20:40


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Have you even looked at Astra Millicheese codex that is cheap units. Nothing about marines is cheap. Heck most of the codex isn't worth it's point's.


What did I say?

You either take an entire army built around cheesing your opponent with cheap units, but you would not use space marines to do this if there are better armies to use other than Ultras and Bobby G.


Your stretching there mate. My point has been : "Scouts are the best options for troop choices, they are incredibly flexible and increase in value depending on what chapter tactics you take." +2 Armor save and -1 to hit for a troop choice is kind of awesome. *only if you take raven guard tactic and camo cloak*

I get reading an entire paragraph is difficult but ignoring points made in a discussion is a bit much.

Deathwatch are looking at AP -2 Bolt Rifles and AP -1 Auto Bolt Rifles and laughing hysterically.


They don't have that? What about equipment decreases?

I don't think Primaris are supposed to stand up by themselves. I don't think they ever have been meant to play entirely solo.

I don't see neccesary increasing the AP from the Intercessors rifles. Yes, the "normal" Boltgun should be AP -1, it is a 24" weapon. The Bolt Rifle can stay AP -1 as they are 30".


I do agree, but then auto bolt rifle profiles would be that much worse in comparision to just taking a bolter, just raising all bolt weapon profiles by ap - 1 would go a long way, or increasing their rate of fire at half distance.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
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Just make them cheaper. Power armor horde works fine for sisters. Lore doesn't matter on the table tap, only efficacy at this point. BA can do NONE of the things in the fluff on the table top already.
   
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 Asherian Command wrote:

Deathwatch are looking at AP -2 Bolt Rifles and AP -1 Auto Bolt Rifles and laughing hysterically.


They don't have that? What about equipment decreases?


Oh they have that, but they don't get to auto-wound anything that isnt a tank with a roll of a 2 in that profile.

Baseline bullets hitting on 3s (rerolling 1s) wounding on 2s (rerolling 1s) with AP-2? The cheese is strong with this one.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Just make them cheaper. Power armor horde works fine for sisters. Lore doesn't matter on the table tap, only efficacy at this point. BA can do NONE of the things in the fluff on the table top already.

If someone wants power armor horde, they can play Sisters. This is about making Marines worth their cost.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:

Deathwatch are looking at AP -2 Bolt Rifles and AP -1 Auto Bolt Rifles and laughing hysterically.


They don't have that? What about equipment decreases?


Oh they have that, but they don't get to auto-wound anything that isnt a tank with a roll of a 2 in that profile.

Baseline bullets hitting on 3s (rerolling 1s) wounding on 2s (rerolling 1s) with AP-2? The cheese is strong with this one.


Yet people don't use deathwatch?

Even I don't like using deathwatch as they are too limited in what they are doing. (In terms of chapter tactics, their other abilities are great but i only ever take em as detachment but losing the raven guard or ultramarine special rule on them is not worth the risk in some occassions)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/30 16:12:09


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 Asherian Command wrote:


Yet people don't use deathwatch?

Even I don't like using deathwatch as they are too limited in what they are doing.


*shrug*

I'm having an absolute blast with my Primaris Deathwatch. Some folks can't wrap their head around Imperial aspect warriors I guess. I'm not one of them.
   
 
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