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 Crimson wrote:
I think Tau are a nice faction in sense that they're example of all those minor species Imperium constantly casually annihilates. Tau allows to see that struggle from the xenos perspective and shows their attempts to fight back. There have been countess similar xeno empires which have lost that battle and are now extinct.

In the 41st millennium.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think Tau are a nice faction in sense that they're example of all those minor species Imperium constantly casually annihilates. Tau allows to see that struggle from the xenos perspective and shows their attempts to fight back. There have been countess similar xeno empires which have lost that battle and are now extinct.

In the 41st millennium.

But similar alien empires existed in 30K era too, and the Imperium annihilated them.

Onething123456 wrote:

Voss wrote:
It isn't all or nothing.

There are real threats, and the Imperium is ALSO lying about other things that aren't threats.
The setting material isn't even vaguely subtle about this.

What is it lying about? Chaos? The Orks? The Tyranids? The Dark Eldar? And myriad other threats?


All of the threats are real.

All the armies designed for fighting in the wargame are threats. (Well, the Tau aren't and the Eldar aren't always).
But the setting is bigger than that.

Easy example: Megaspider world, a pointless war yielding lots of dead marines for no reason whatsoever, given the spiders couldn't leave the planet.
The Heresy novels have an absurdly high number of civilizations that aren't a threat at all that the Imperium attacks anyway, often creating new threats.

You toss around 'proof' and 'facts' a lot, but miss the nuance. Imperial propaganda is actively deceitful, that isn't even vaguely hidden from readers. That doesn't mean there aren't real threats, but the reader's omniscience doesn't match the reality of the setting. The average Imperial citizen doesn't know anything at all, just what they're told to be afraid of. Often at the expense of not even knowing about the things they _really_ should be afraid of. Ignorance is the Imperial Truth.

 Crimson wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think Tau are a nice faction in sense that they're example of all those minor species Imperium constantly casually annihilates. Tau allows to see that struggle from the xenos perspective and shows their attempts to fight back. There have been countess similar xeno empires which have lost that battle and are now extinct.

In the 41st millennium.

But similar alien empires existed in 30K era too, and the Imperium annihilated them.

Hardly. There were very few non-hostile aliens in the 31st millennium. We know this because Horus in Horus Rising muses the Interex is the first time he has ever come across alien co-existence (and Horus thought the Emperor would talk with the Interex), and even with the Diasporex (the Laer appeared in the same book on page 28 of the Fulgrim book when the Council thought about making them a protectorate instead of conquering them, and Fulgrim had a reason for destroying them that was not because they were aliens.), the Iron Hands were confused why the humans were getting along with the aliens, and implied in their talks that they had never seen it before.


And for the love of God, stop denying the Perpetuals as proof. They are part of the lore. Accept it. And Semyon in Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum said the Emperor manipulated human history for tens of thousands of years, and he knows this because he has a sliver of the Emperor's power and immortality (as well as his knowledge) and because the Emperor told him about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

Voss wrote:
It isn't all or nothing.

There are real threats, and the Imperium is ALSO lying about other things that aren't threats.
The setting material isn't even vaguely subtle about this.

What is it lying about? Chaos? The Orks? The Tyranids? The Dark Eldar? And myriad other threats?


All of the threats are real.

All the armies designed for fighting in the wargame are threats. (Well, the Tau aren't and the Eldar aren't always).
But the setting is bigger than that.

Easy example: Megaspider world, a pointless war yielding lots of dead marines for no reason whatsoever, given the spiders couldn't leave the planet.
The Heresy novels have an absurdly high number of civilizations that aren't a threat at all that the Imperium attacks anyway, often creating new threats.

You toss around 'proof' and 'facts' a lot, but miss the nuance. Imperial propaganda is actively deceitful, that isn't even vaguely hidden from readers. That doesn't mean there aren't real threats, but the reader's omniscience doesn't match the reality of the setting. The average Imperial citizen doesn't know anything at all, just what they're told to be afraid of. Often at the expense of not even knowing about the things they _really_ should be afraid of. Ignorance is the Imperial Truth.

Absurdly high number of civilizations that aren't a threat? That is a gross exaggeration. I read a lot of HH books.


Megaspider? You mean those aliens in Horus Rising? They were hostile. How is that proof?

They were hostile. They weren't a threat

Absurdly high number of civilizations that aren't a threat? That is a gross exaggeration. I read a lot of HH books.

You focus on specifics and miss a lot of the rest.

Onething123456 wrote:

And for the love of God, stop denying the Perpetuals as proof. They are part of the lore. Accept it. And Semyon in Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum said the Emperor manipulated human history for tens of thousands of years, and he knows this because he has a sliver of the Emperor's power and immortality (as well as his knowledge) and because the Emperor told him about it.

He has said nothing about Perpetuals in this thread. What does this have to do with this discussion?

Don't drag your issues from one thread into all of them. It's frankly just rude, both to people trying to take part in a discussion who may not be aware of the history, and to the people with whom you bear these grudges who are unable to try to talk to you without having old issues dredged up.

The Megarachnids were hostile, and the only reason the Interex did not destroy is because they did not believe in destroying species (they were more like the xenomorphs or Tyranids than E.T)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aelyn wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

And for the love of God, stop denying the Perpetuals as proof. They are part of the lore. Accept it. And Semyon in Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum said the Emperor manipulated human history for tens of thousands of years, and he knows this because he has a sliver of the Emperor's power and immortality (as well as his knowledge) and because the Emperor told him about it.

He has said nothing about Perpetuals in this thread. What does this have to do with this discussion?

Don't drag your issues from one thread into all of them. It's frankly just rude, both to people trying to take part in a discussion who may not be aware of the history, and to the people with whom you bear these grudges who are unable to try to talk to you without having old issues dredged up.

Alright. I just got tired of him denying it. Sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
They were hostile. They weren't a threat

Absurdly high number of civilizations that aren't a threat? That is a gross exaggeration. I read a lot of HH books.

You focus on specifics and miss a lot of the rest.

They were more like the Tyranids than anything else. The only reason the Interex did not destroy it is because they did not believe in destroying other species, even if they were like the Tyranids or Xenomorphs.


I don't see how that proves anything. The Megaarachnids were about as "good" as the Tyranids.

So what? Threats aren't about inherent 'goodness' (whatever that suddenly means).

Threats are about their capability to do harm, which was ZERO, as they were trapped on a single world.

The EC threw a bunch of lives away for no reason at all, other than very laughably 'kill, maim, burn.' They fell victim to their own unwarranted aggression and the genocidal aims of the Great Crusade.

Voss wrote:
So what? Threats aren't about inherent 'goodness' (whatever that suddenly means).

Threats are about their capability to do harm, which was ZERO, as they were trapped on a single world.

The EC threw a bunch of lives away for no reason at all, other than very laughably 'kill, maim, burn.' They fell victim to their own unwarranted aggression and the genocidal aims of the Great Crusade.

And how is that the Imperium lying? It was a misunderstanding. If they were not trapped on a planet, they would have been a threat.

Picking up an aside:

The Imperium is not a place of misogynistic pigs that oppress women. Women have equal rights, can serve equally in the military, and can join the warrior Sororitas.

Is the Imperium 'Mysogynistic'?
First off, the definition of 'Mysogynistic' means 'hates women'. So no, I broadly agree. The Imperium is comparatively free of prejudiced hate within the human species, if only because hated of Xenos species or Human subspecies ('dirty twist') is so much more fun.

Note: does not apply to religious hatred. The Imperium still does that, a LOT - but that's a whole 'nother argument in an enviroment where gods are [a] real and [b] trying to bring about the destruction of reality)


There definitely isn't anything resembling gender parity, though, based on our 'windows' into Imperial history. There have, for example, been a grand total of two female High Lords ever mentioned (Marguerethe Wienand and Juskina Tull in the Beast Arise), the Ciaphas Caine novels note Jenit Sulla as one of the only female Lord Generals in 10,000 years of history, and whilst you do encounter occasional female Inquisitors and Planetary Governors, the ratio is severely unbalanced.

The Adepta Sororitas don't really count; their elevation to a large-scale military force (rather than just Vandire's inner bodyguard) is a legal cop-out which resulted from Sebstian Thor using the word 'men' in the Decree Passive.

Note that's the Imperium as a whole - individual worlds are free to be as prejudiced and unpleasant as their respective governors like within the bounds of Lex Imperialis and certainly the Quaestoris Imperialis worlds are stereotypically medieval in their social structure.

locarno24 wrote:
Picking up an aside:

The Imperium is not a place of misogynistic pigs that oppress women. Women have equal rights, can serve equally in the military, and can join the warrior Sororitas.

Is the Imperium 'Mysogynistic'?
First off, the definition of 'Mysogynistic' means 'hates women'. So no, I broadly agree. The Imperium is comparatively free of prejudiced hate within the human species, if only because hated of Xenos species or Human subspecies ('dirty twist') is so much more fun.

Note: does not apply to religious hatred. The Imperium still does that, a LOT - but that's a whole 'nother argument in an enviroment where gods are [a] real and [b] trying to bring about the destruction of reality)


There definitely isn't anything resembling gender parity, though, based on our 'windows' into Imperial history. There have, for example, been a grand total of two female High Lords ever mentioned (Marguerethe Wienand and Juskina Tull in the Beast Arise), the Ciaphas Caine novels note Jenit Sulla as one of the only female Lord Generals in 10,000 years of history, and whilst you do encounter occasional female Inquisitors and Planetary Governors, the ratio is severely unbalanced.

The Adepta Sororitas don't really count; their elevation to a large-scale military force (rather than just Vandire's inner bodyguard) is a legal cop-out which resulted from Sebstian Thor using the word 'men' in the Decree Passive.

Note that's the Imperium as a whole - individual worlds are free to be as prejudiced and unpleasant as their respective governors like within the bounds of Lex Imperialis and certainly the Quaestoris Imperialis worlds are stereotypically medieval in their social structure.

The Sororitas are still all-female.

And there are many female soldiers in the Imperium. There are fewer female Inquisitors and High Lords, but its not sexist or misogynistic.

“It’s not sexist or misogynistic, they just put men in positions of power to an overwhelming and nearly exclusive degree while women are relegated to roles as baby factories and religious fanatics”.

Right. Sure.

Lets try to stop interjecting real world politics and morality into a fantasy setting. With that being said....let me inject a few things .

I think its safer to say that the reason there are far more men in prominent positions in the story is because of whom the story is and was written for. Boys and young men. MOST of those have not jumped on the train of cultural warfare we have now. Boys play with boy dolls.

NOTE : This post in neither in support or against any form of gender or sexual issues. I wont debate because there is nothing to debate. The above is my thoughts on why you see more males in the setting than females.


ALSO, and this one may get me a slap on the wrist but someone needs to say it.


Its is evident that the probability of Onething12345 is on the spectrum is a rather large one. I know, im on the spectrum as well...as is my brother. This is not a insult and can neither be controlled or changed (currently). With this condition comes certain behaviors. If you are not on the spectrum onething, then you are exhibiting signals that you are indeed by the way you interact with the forum. I think it very likely that onething12345 is honestly trying to be a part of the forum. He is not "trolling". And in order to fit in he is going to need some help. So perhaps a few us can help. Or not.

Sterling191 wrote:
“It’s not sexist or misogynistic, they just put men in positions of power to an overwhelming and nearly exclusive degree while women are relegated to roles as baby factories and religious fanatics”.

Right. Sure.

Really?

The Imperium is not sexist. Prove it is.

Baby factories? Religious fanatics? There are many women serving in the Imperial military.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Table wrote:
Lets try to stop interjecting real world politics and morality into a fantasy setting. With that being said....let me inject a few things .

I think its safer to say that the reason there are far more men in prominent positions in the story is because of whom the story is and was written for. Boys and young men. MOST of those have not jumped on the train of cultural warfare we have now. Boys play with boy dolls.

NOTE : This post in neither in support or against any form of gender or sexual issues. I wont debate because there is nothing to debate. The above is my thoughts on why you see more males in the setting than females.


ALSO, and this one may get me a slap on the wrist but someone needs to say it.


Its is evident that the probability of Onething12345 is on the spectrum is a rather large one. I know, im on the spectrum as well...as is my brother. This is not a insult and can neither be controlled or changed (currently). With this condition comes certain behaviors. If you are not on the spectrum onething, then you are exhibiting signals that you are indeed by the way you interact with the forum. I think it very likely that onething12345 is honestly trying to be a part of the forum. He is not "trolling". And in order to fit in he is going to need some help. So perhaps a few us can help. Or not.

No, I have ADD, I don't have what you are implying I have.


And those kinds of people have difficulty socializing by definition. I never had any difficulty socializing.

Well, this thread was a bit of a rollercoaster... Since the topic seems to have wandered off by itself somewhere, it's time to shut this one down.