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2018/11/16 20:15:01
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Voss wrote: If some of your soldiers from the same batch are spontaneously exploding into fleshy growths and going mad, the logical thing is to do something about that, either terminating the gene-line or look into sane ways of fixing it.
That's assuming the problem was detrimental for role of them. Which was warriors for brief period before getting rid of them. You could also see it as way to ensure the T-son's don't become TOO powerful. They would need to be killed off later after all.
If the mutations gets rid of t-son's after they have served their purpose...All the better.
Except, they were being held back from being deployed and serving their purpose because of the Flesh Curse. It made them less effective as warriors, and being warriors wasn't even what they were exceptional at.
And the mutations were demonstrably not enough to get rid of them in the end anyway (and despite that they hadn't finish serving their purpose)
Plus the 'need to killed off later' only works if were going with the 'and the Emperor planned for/wanted the Heresy to happen all along' theory. Some of the primarchs correctly observe that the galaxy is too big and there would never be peace- they'd always be needed to pacify someone, somewhere.
w1zard wrote:
Angron and Kurze were lost causes, and doomed to be traitors no matter what anyone did.
Eh. Kurze put himself in a closed prophecy loop. If he had wanted to, he could have arranged the circumstances of his death earlier.
Anyone with any sanity or compassion would have tried to remove the Nails despite the risk, or simply let Angron die. He wasn't 'doomed' to be a traitor, he just needed to find someone willing and able to kill him, or willing and able to perform risky surgery. Or morst likely, both. Given everything, I suspect the Emperor could have done it, but found it more useful not to.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2018/11/16 20:27:38
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
If daddE had used his military power to defeat angron's enemies and save his followers things may have been different.
If daddE had told the primarchs the whole truth about chaos and trusted them, things would have been different.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If daddE had used his military power to defeat angron's enemies and save his followers things may have been different.
If daddE had told the primarchs the whole truth about chaos and trusted them, things would have been different.
If daddE had taken at least magnus aside and said "look, son, here's the real story on the warp, osyker powers and what's behind them" magnus may have been saved.
If he'd talked to lorgar and told him that worship leads to the chaos gods and told him about them, lorgar may have been saved.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 20:31:24
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
2018/11/16 20:45:37
Subject: Re:What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
I believe one of the HH novels confirmed that the nails could not be taken out without killing him. How ever the Emperor also considered just having him put down and recognized that he was damaged goods, but decided that a damage primarch was worth it short term. It's clear though that Angron, Kurze, Lorgar and possibly Magnus were always going to issue at some point.
2018/11/16 21:08:24
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Techpriestsupport wrote: If daddE had used his military power to defeat angron's enemies and save his followers things may have been different.
If daddE had told the primarchs the whole truth about chaos and trusted them, things would have been different.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If daddE had used his military power to defeat angron's enemies and save his followers things may have been different.
If daddE had told the primarchs the whole truth about chaos and trusted them, things would have been different.
If daddE had taken at least magnus aside and said "look, son, here's the real story on the warp, osyker powers and what's behind them" magnus may have been saved.
If he'd talked to lorgar and told him that worship leads to the chaos gods and told him about them, lorgar may have been saved.
Yeah he handled Angrons finding so horribly bad. what did he think that Angron was just gonna forget about his brothers and sisters because he gave him a nice new armada and shiny soldiers. It would have been so easy to have saved them, just goes to show how detached he was from humanity, even to his Primarchs. The Emperor only ever cared about the Custodes and the Wolves because he valued loyalty and duty more than anything else, he even said so, saying how the Primarchs only cared about glory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 21:10:32
2018/11/16 21:20:48
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Techpriestsupport wrote:If he'd talked to lorgar and told him that worship leads to the chaos gods and told him about them, lorgar may have been saved.
Having read First Heretic, it's pretty clear telling Lorgar the truth about the Chaos Gods would just have resulted in him running off to worship them even sooner.
HoundsofDemos wrote:I believe one of the HH novels confirmed that the nails could not be taken out without killing him.
It was in Master of Mankind. Arkhan Land agreed with the Emperor's assessment, for what it's worth.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
2018/11/16 21:28:18
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Techpriestsupport wrote:If he'd talked to lorgar and told him that worship leads to the chaos gods and told him about them, lorgar may have been saved.
Having read First Heretic, it's pretty clear telling Lorgar the truth about the Chaos Gods would just have resulted in him running off to worship them even sooner.
HoundsofDemos wrote:I believe one of the HH novels confirmed that the nails could not be taken out without killing him.
It was in Master of Mankind. Arkhan Land agreed with the Emperor's assessment, for what it's worth.
Sorry though you said Arkhan said he'd be killed taking them out, ignore this comment.
Spoiler:
‘Of course,’ the Emperor answered, still looking at the screens.
Arkhan did his best to hide his surprise. ‘Then, Divine One, why would you leave it there?’
‘This is why.’ The Emperor rested both hands on Angron’s head, one with the fingertips pressed to the
primarch’s temple and cheek, the other pressed to the crown of his shaven head where the cable-tendrils
joined the flesh and bone. The images on several screens immediately resolved to a clearer imprint of a
brutishly dense skull miserable with crude cybernetics and the bone-scarring of powerful surgical laser
cuts.
‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.
Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous
system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been
agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.
Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s
insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered
into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics
showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.
‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.
The Emperor lifted His hands from the somnolent primarch’s skull. Most of the screens instantly went
black. He spoke as He removed His surgical gloves. ‘This has been educational.’
‘I don’t understand, Divine One. Can I be of use to you?’
‘You have been of immense use, Arkhan. You have confirmed what I suspected regarding the cruciamen’s
origins. No one else could have done so. I am accordingly grateful.’
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 21:29:54
2018/11/16 21:58:54
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Slipspace wrote: I always assumed the Flesh Curse was actually just warp mutation from overuse of psychic powers and Tzeentch's meddling rather than a specific problem within the Thousand Sons genetic make-up. I'm not sure if it was ever really curable. I always saw it as Tzeentch simply stringing Magnus along when he struck a bargain to stop it.
I think it was a mixture of both; there was something fundamentally Tzeentchy in the Thousand Sons' blood that only Tzeentch could remedy. If Magnus hadn't made that pact the Thousand Sons would have just been annihilated. I think even in a universe where the Emperor gives a reasonable explanation to Magnus as to what exactly chaos is Magnus would have to ask himself if he's willing to allow his entire legion to die and I think Magnus would have said no. It's that third way stubbornness that makes the legion exemplary of Tzeentch's philosophy in the first place! Either Magnus would have accepted dealing with chaos as a reasonable risk for the benefits (y'know, like his father did lel) or found some other, likely equally disastrous method of solving the problem. We could be calling it the Rubric of Magnus!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/17 11:14:29
2018/11/17 12:39:29
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Eh. Kurze put himself in a closed prophecy loop. If he had wanted to, he could have arranged the circumstances of his death earlier.
Curze tries to do this, repeatedly, in the novels. Twice with the Lion, once with Vulkan, once with Sanguinius. Part of it is that Konrad truly isn't entirely in control of his own mind and part of it is that his prophecies really don't fail. He sure as gak saw the Ascensions of Fulgrim and Lorgar to daemonhood, Manus to headlessness, and Dorn's ignomius death to bubble wrap long before those deaths actually happened.
... and they did happen. Primarchs have no plot armor against Curze's visions.
Eh. Kurze put himself in a closed prophecy loop. If he had wanted to, he could have arranged the circumstances of his death earlier.
Curze tries to do this, repeatedly, in the novels. Twice with the Lion, once with Vulkan, once with Sanguinius. Part of it is that Konrad truly isn't entirely in control of his own mind and part of it is that his prophecies really don't fail. He sure as gak saw the Ascensions of Fulgrim and Lorgar to daemonhood, Manus to headlessness, and Dorn's ignomius death to bubble wrap long before those deaths actually happened.
... and they did happen. Primarchs have no plot armor against Curze's visions.
In the grime darkness of the future only Curze can see you roll a 1 with reroll!
2018/11/17 19:35:36
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Voss wrote: I think what annoys me most about the HH novels is the fall of far too many of the primarchs amounts to romantic comedy logic.
That is, the third act 'misunderstanding' where everyone gets angry about something trivial and the whole thing would be completely nullified if they acted like adults and had a conversation instead.
Given that which Primarchs fall is set in stone (and, in a couple of cases, the circumstances as well - see Mortarion, Magnus and Horus, for example), what do you think the writers could have done to improve this?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
w1zard wrote: Angron and Kurze were lost causes, and doomed to be traitors no matter what anyone did.
I suspect they may still have been threats, but not necessarily Traitors in the whoops-I've-fallen-to-Chaos sense. In both cases, more from losing control and attacking their own side than anything else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/17 19:39:34
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2018/11/17 21:28:31
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or all of them, say, if horus or lorgar were never born.
Come now, the Night Lords were a renegade Legion liing the Chaos lifestyle way before the Heresy began.
Yeah, same with the world eaters, and a few other legions with certain questionable tactical opinions, but if the Heresy didn't happen, they would've probably coasted along until they either went rogue on their own and turned into raiders/pirates, or the emperor got rid after their usefulness ran its course ala thunder warriors/2nd and 11th legions(?)
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs
2018/11/18 05:37:31
Subject: Re:What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Angron was the most lost, in the sense there was no way he would have fitted into the Emperor's dream. Lets assume the most ideal scenario. The Chaos gods don't exist, the Emperor gets the webway project right and humanity has bright future. He's still a problem. He crippled his legion to the same problem he had. The only hope of saving him was giving him mercy when he was found. He was the most broken of toys and it really shows how cruel the Emperor was. He knew that he had a general who wasn't fit to lead and after murdering a dozen plus officers out of pure rage, lobotomized his entire legion. He still decided short term, let him rampage and I'll figure it out later.
2018/11/18 05:43:55
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Dysartes wrote: I suspect they may still have been threats, but not necessarily Traitors in the whoops-I've-fallen-to-Chaos sense. In both cases, more from losing control and attacking their own side than anything else.
Being a traitor doesn't necessarily mean worshiping chaos. Both Kurze and Angron would have broken with the Emperor/Imperium eventually.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/18 05:44:12
2018/11/18 06:47:59
Subject: What traitor Primarch could have been saved?
Techpriestsupport wrote:If he'd talked to lorgar and told him that worship leads to the chaos gods and told him about them, lorgar may have been saved.
Having read First Heretic, it's pretty clear telling Lorgar the truth about the Chaos Gods would just have resulted in him running off to worship them even sooner.
HoundsofDemos wrote:I believe one of the HH novels confirmed that the nails could not be taken out without killing him.
It was in Master of Mankind. Arkhan Land agreed with the Emperor's assessment, for what it's worth.
Sorry though you said Arkhan said he'd be killed taking them out, ignore this comment.
Spoiler:
‘Of course,’ the Emperor answered, still looking at the screens.
Arkhan did his best to hide his surprise. ‘Then, Divine One, why would you leave it there?’
‘This is why.’ The Emperor rested both hands on Angron’s head, one with the fingertips pressed to the
primarch’s temple and cheek, the other pressed to the crown of his shaven head where the cable-tendrils
joined the flesh and bone. The images on several screens immediately resolved to a clearer imprint of a
brutishly dense skull miserable with crude cybernetics and the bone-scarring of powerful surgical laser
cuts.
‘Do you see?’ the Emperor asked.
Arkhan saw. The tendrils were sunk deep, rooted in the meat of the brain, threaded to the nervous
system, and down in roughly serpentine coils around the spinal column. Every movement must have been
agony for the primarch, feeding back into the base emotions of anger and spite.
Worse, the brain’s limbic lobe and insular cortex were more than just savaged by the pain engine’s
insertion; they had been surgically attacked and removed even before implantation. The device hammered
into his skull hadn’t ruined those sections of the brain – it had replaced them. Ugly black cybernetics
showed on the internal scans, in place of entire sections of the primarch’s brain tissue.
‘They are the only thing keeping him alive,’ Arkhan said.
The Emperor lifted His hands from the somnolent primarch’s skull. Most of the screens instantly went
black. He spoke as He removed His surgical gloves. ‘This has been educational.’
‘I don’t understand, Divine One. Can I be of use to you?’
‘You have been of immense use, Arkhan. You have confirmed what I suspected regarding the cruciamen’s
origins. No one else could have done so. I am accordingly grateful.’
Maybe lorgar was a small man who needed to worship something. Perhaps the emperor could have sighed, rolled his eyes and allowed lorgy to worship him and told him as a god his greatest act of worship was to conquer worlds in his name as fast as possible, leaving the rest to other servants.
Or he could have simply ended lorgar to save others from being seduced to chaos.
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
